My understanding is the USB output of all the Pi are bad due to a layout problem that not only a better supply can solve. I2S seems a better option if it's reclocked after. But if you had to use an USB to I2S board after better to give your Pi and buy an Odroid C1+; it has both a better usb management as far I can read, and has also a dedicated I2S 7 pins connectors. It is also a liitle more powerfull while costing the same than the Pi !
In an other way a true 64 bits PC plateform & OS gives often a better result even with 32 bits streamer... most of the time despite the noise, USB are better than the one you can find on nano-pc... which at least should be feed with battery for those last... but doesn't Worth to do it with a Pi Ihmo !
Jriver is making a free streamer for audio only which is the same motor than the Jriver center : it's called Jukebox Something : should be tested on PC Windows, with Daphile as well, for the non Linux fan if no nano pc or as an alternative... but here it's off topic !
In an other way a true 64 bits PC plateform & OS gives often a better result even with 32 bits streamer... most of the time despite the noise, USB are better than the one you can find on nano-pc... which at least should be feed with battery for those last... but doesn't Worth to do it with a Pi Ihmo !
Jriver is making a free streamer for audio only which is the same motor than the Jriver center : it's called Jukebox Something : should be tested on PC Windows, with Daphile as well, for the non Linux fan if no nano pc or as an alternative... but here it's off topic !
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Mamboberry
Just a wee plug: I've got a Mamboberry on a Pi2 and it sounds very nice to me. They'll sell you a transformer (mind how you wire it!). The board has terminals to pipe in the 6vAC.
In my emailed interactions with the Mamboberry people, collybia.com, they have been fabulous.
I also have an IQaudio (not the latest IQaduio+) and this sounds much better.
Music is via 1g Ethernet hosted on an SSD HD via USB to an AirportExtreme. I used to have USB memory sticks connected to a hub and then to the Pi. That change improved the (IQaudio) sound a lot but I have no understanding why. (my Imagination?)
I have not got it running with the 2A transformer yet--shame on me. There is a power regulator on the board which powers the Pi too. I believe that the ESS 9032 has a FIFO buffer (or something) for the Jitter of the Pi 12C bus and the Mamboberry has a built in clock. I can't claim to understand the details.
Enjoying this right now with no buffering or clicks etc in it's high res splendour:
"Resonance" 24bit/176.4 kHz HiRez WAV file DVD-ROM, MA Recordings
I've also (back)ordered a 7" touch screen for the Pi(1) and hope to bolt them together and stick them in a 3d printed case. Running Chrome in kiosk mode should provide a physical (not smart-phone) UI to moOde, which runs much nicer than Rune IMHO. Tim has really been very helpful too.
Hope this helps someone.
Just a wee plug: I've got a Mamboberry on a Pi2 and it sounds very nice to me. They'll sell you a transformer (mind how you wire it!). The board has terminals to pipe in the 6vAC.
In my emailed interactions with the Mamboberry people, collybia.com, they have been fabulous.
I also have an IQaudio (not the latest IQaduio+) and this sounds much better.
Music is via 1g Ethernet hosted on an SSD HD via USB to an AirportExtreme. I used to have USB memory sticks connected to a hub and then to the Pi. That change improved the (IQaudio) sound a lot but I have no understanding why. (my Imagination?)
I have not got it running with the 2A transformer yet--shame on me. There is a power regulator on the board which powers the Pi too. I believe that the ESS 9032 has a FIFO buffer (or something) for the Jitter of the Pi 12C bus and the Mamboberry has a built in clock. I can't claim to understand the details.
Enjoying this right now with no buffering or clicks etc in it's high res splendour:
"Resonance" 24bit/176.4 kHz HiRez WAV file DVD-ROM, MA Recordings
I've also (back)ordered a 7" touch screen for the Pi(1) and hope to bolt them together and stick them in a 3d printed case. Running Chrome in kiosk mode should provide a physical (not smart-phone) UI to moOde, which runs much nicer than Rune IMHO. Tim has really been very helpful too.
Hope this helps someone.
RPiB/RPiB+/RPi2 lacks a dedicated Ethernet MAC/PHY IC, networking is handled by USB. That's the main difference, and potential source of problems. I've tested ODAC + RPi2 + kernel 3.18.x with SMPS/SMPS+LDO reg/simple linear PS. Every combination worked flawlessly at the most demanding yet supported by the DAC formats. Probably there might be glitches with older kernels/boards. Even if so, a careful IRQ/DMA handling could mitigate that to some extend.
There is no such thing as a 7-pin I2S connector. I2S is a 3-line serial bus.
C'mon. 64-bit computing is orthogonal to a quality of USB power lines. And that a 32-bit streamer application behaves better under 64-bit OS is another snake oil theory as well.
i seem to recall that this is correct. completely different architecture. i could be wrong but if a 64bit machine runs 32bit software then it has to run it under a 'virtual machine' in the background which also limits the memory to 4gig and as far as i remember this is why windows 64bit OS's have a '32bit compatibility mode' function built in. software written in 32bit can only run in 32bit as it cant physically address the other 32bits of the 64bit architecture therefore the 32bit actually runs worse.
anyway, i'm very much enjoying my little inexpensive RPi and to my untrained ears it sound better than my oppo and no more doing the CD shuffle
i'm still amazed that you can fit so much memory into a microsd card which is smaller than my fingernail and you can now get 128gig sized ones. geeezzz my first proper desktop HDD was 8gig and that cost a fekin fortune. slip the microsd into a still tiny kingston USB dingle and away you go, who needs big cumbersome HDD drives.
the only thing i would like to see is a headless player which works on bluetooth, now that would be superb as there would be no need for a network connection.
Installing the 'ncmpcpp' package gives a simple local control interface.
The downside being you need a keyboard and monitor. (that and it is not 'pretty'...
)Client:Ncmpcpp - Music Player Daemon Community Wiki - Wikia
NCurses Music Player Client (Plus Plus) | rybczak.net
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I read about electrical problem as well about the Pi usb output ? You should try an other plateform to make a valid benchmark with Pis : you may have even better results ! Many experienced better result with a PC than a Pi when connected via usb to an USB to I2S external board.
In the 3-line serial bus, where are the return gnd ??? If you put a serial return around each signal, you have a 7 pins connectors as IanCanada is using between some of his boards : each return gnd has its own I2S channel while the gnd act as a separation/shield between each active I2S channel ! Better than hacking the I2S on the long plug of a Pi with gnd connection... far from the I2S signals and also maybe unique (I mean the return gnd path) !
I agree about USB, 64 bits, etc, but some noticed a better result, (auto bias snake oïl ?) playing 32 bits streamer on 64 bits plateform ! It may be also the difference of PC (electrical layout of the pcb) when swapping from a W32 PC towards a 64bits PC. Yes it needs serious investigation to understand where is the improvement. I bet for a better electrical management and layout by chance on the new better PC and no kernel things due to its 64: a bus is a bus ! The listner may have listened a better result but miss the valid explanation with talking about 32 or 64 plateforms when playing with a same 32 bits player !
Remember your OSI layer ! At the beginning was the electricity (and all its problems : noise, ground loop, etc)
At the end there is no doubt a nano pc is a good thing if you have not at hands a free PC on a shelf !
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On the upside though..ugly means extremely low resource usage...a little research needed to set up after installing and some learning for the interface but it is quick and quite comprehensive in its functions.
I do agree with Eldam that the PI2 stock USB ports are of very basic quality. Basic or rather low quality in "audio" terms. (And that applies to the I2S interface as well.)
You just have to have a look at the board.
The combined USB/ethernet chip is another major disadvantage of the PI.
And yes. I'm also well aware that a quality MBO with properly implemented PC USB ports and better power supply/regulators/architecture can sound much better then a stock PI.
If you then add a Sotm PCI-E USB card to such a PC, you'll have pretty much one the best USB audio server solutions out there - from a HW perspective.
A friend of mine just compared a 64bit PC with Sotm vs. PI2 (running my versions of Arch OS, squeezelite and numerous optimizations) with a good power supply, a Jitterbug and an Uptone Regen.
His PI2 solution was slightly better then the PC solution (running Daphile-rt btw). Taking the Sotm USB card out caused a clear loss on the PC side in comparison.
Obviously the PI2 based solution required quite some tweaking to get to that level.
What I'm trying to say here is, if you go the USB route - unfortunately everything has impact on your sound experience.
You can make a PC sound really good and you can make a PI2 sound really good.
This IMO is not a black or white discussion. If you prefer not to introduce any tweaks you're better off with a quality PC as base. However. That can change quickly if you start fiddling around with tweaks.
And if you look at budgets, starting off with a PI2 as base gives you plenty of budget for the tweaks. I mean. You'll get a Pi+Jitterbug+Uptone Regen for less then a
Sotm USB card alone. Obviously if you still intend to use an existing noisy PC as audio server, you can hook up a Jitterbug + Uptone Regen combo as well.
That'l look even better from a budget point. It still might not make the best overall solution though.
IMO the minimum tweaks you need to add to the PI2 as USB audio server is a Jitterbug and a rather good PS. The Jitterbug basically reverts the PI USB port into a quality USB port. A good PS - a $30 Anker battery - plus some quality buffer caps will do a great job. And - if your DAC hopefully supports it - cut the VBUS on the USB cable right after the Jitterbug.
One word on PI2 alternative boards.
Somebody mentioned Odroid earlier.
I played around with several boards. Yes the HW is mostly better.
See also Banana PIs etc.
But the HW is not making a good device alone. Most other boards do have sooner
or later issues with OS/firmware/driver support. Sometimes drivers never get build.
Or bugs never get solved.
Many of these small companies rely on the community to make things work.
That doesn't work with rather small communities and short product life cycles!
And that's one of main reasons why I'm staying with the PI. It's the best supported device out there.
I do also think going I2S or USB is a matter of personal preference. I do feel I'm much more flexible with USB devices.
Enjoy.
You just have to have a look at the board.
The combined USB/ethernet chip is another major disadvantage of the PI.
And yes. I'm also well aware that a quality MBO with properly implemented PC USB ports and better power supply/regulators/architecture can sound much better then a stock PI.
If you then add a Sotm PCI-E USB card to such a PC, you'll have pretty much one the best USB audio server solutions out there - from a HW perspective.
A friend of mine just compared a 64bit PC with Sotm vs. PI2 (running my versions of Arch OS, squeezelite and numerous optimizations) with a good power supply, a Jitterbug and an Uptone Regen.
His PI2 solution was slightly better then the PC solution (running Daphile-rt btw). Taking the Sotm USB card out caused a clear loss on the PC side in comparison.
Obviously the PI2 based solution required quite some tweaking to get to that level.
What I'm trying to say here is, if you go the USB route - unfortunately everything has impact on your sound experience.
You can make a PC sound really good and you can make a PI2 sound really good.
This IMO is not a black or white discussion. If you prefer not to introduce any tweaks you're better off with a quality PC as base. However. That can change quickly if you start fiddling around with tweaks.
And if you look at budgets, starting off with a PI2 as base gives you plenty of budget for the tweaks. I mean. You'll get a Pi+Jitterbug+Uptone Regen for less then a
Sotm USB card alone. Obviously if you still intend to use an existing noisy PC as audio server, you can hook up a Jitterbug + Uptone Regen combo as well.
That'l look even better from a budget point. It still might not make the best overall solution though.
IMO the minimum tweaks you need to add to the PI2 as USB audio server is a Jitterbug and a rather good PS. The Jitterbug basically reverts the PI USB port into a quality USB port. A good PS - a $30 Anker battery - plus some quality buffer caps will do a great job. And - if your DAC hopefully supports it - cut the VBUS on the USB cable right after the Jitterbug.
One word on PI2 alternative boards.
Somebody mentioned Odroid earlier.
I played around with several boards. Yes the HW is mostly better.
See also Banana PIs etc.
But the HW is not making a good device alone. Most other boards do have sooner
or later issues with OS/firmware/driver support. Sometimes drivers never get build.
Or bugs never get solved.
Many of these small companies rely on the community to make things work.
That doesn't work with rather small communities and short product life cycles!
And that's one of main reasons why I'm staying with the PI. It's the best supported device out there.
I do also think going I2S or USB is a matter of personal preference. I do feel I'm much more flexible with USB devices.
Enjoy.
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another thing i like about the RPi is the small footprint. i'm integrating it into my next headphone amp case for a one box solution (on test at moment). that and i can now listen to albums like Pink Floyd - The Wall without having to get up and change sides/records or swap CD's as multi album are now one folder with continuous track listing which makes for even better listening experience.
as technology/programming advances regarding the RPi more and more IS2 DAC's will become available which is happening at the moment and as such better sound quality will emerge and at £30-40 for a DAC board its not going to break the bank. TBH i'm not after perfection (not obtainable) i'm just after good sound that suits my ears. put up against a turntable cartridge at the same price and its no competition the RPi wins never mind the price of turntables these days even CD players are £100+. i suppose once you start getting into the £1>k turntables things are a bit different.
as technology/programming advances regarding the RPi more and more IS2 DAC's will become available which is happening at the moment and as such better sound quality will emerge and at £30-40 for a DAC board its not going to break the bank. TBH i'm not after perfection (not obtainable) i'm just after good sound that suits my ears. put up against a turntable cartridge at the same price and its no competition the RPi wins never mind the price of turntables these days even CD players are £100+. i suppose once you start getting into the £1>k turntables things are a bit different.
I'm not from windows world, but AFAIR 'virtual machine'-mode has more to do with broken backward compatible ABI contract.
Let me google that for you
Well, I did. The very same ODAC/RPi and USB isolator with a very nice LDO linear regulator in between. If there was any difference, that would be nothing I would like to die for.
Only one of those 7 i2s odroid pins provides GND. Apparently you have taken it for something else.
Or current generations of PC finally handle all your bloatware at acceptable performance levels. Or as you get older your ears wear out, so you don't care. Or you started using better cotton buds.
In fact migrating to 64-bit means you need more memory for pointers, increased cache miss ratio and a bunch of other more or less obvious problems. Needless to say that translates to more power consumption. Of course there are benefits, but none of those is a top priority for audio application IMO.
So some clever folks came up with idea of voltage levels for 0 and 1, differential signaling, galvanic isolation. Your point being?
If I need to look anywhere, it is a DAC board, since that's its designer job to provide adequate power regulation and signal isolation for her board.
You do realize that at the cost of the single pci-e usb card you can get a stand-alone solution built around rpi, with bells and whistles like reclocking and isolation, and the rest of the budget dedicate to chilled riesling for late night sessions?
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Still those gadgets will leave a prospective music lover short of around 250$. Just to fix apparent design flaws of a DAC board and to follow USB route. I wouldn't call it a great deal.
forta i'm looking for the other way round, PI2 as local music storage/player (no streaming) with tablet as remote control via bluetooth. basically MoOde player over bluetooth or even IR sort of like a glorified CD player but the remote is software with a nice fancy GUI.
...............................
cant wait till my new toroidal's arrive so i can start using those ANT regulators.
my plan:
RPi + Dac run off one of ANT reg (might upgrade to two later on and have separate reg for each RPI and I2S DAC).
USB data bus from socket to RPi and another ANT reg supplying USB power (sort of powered hub)
2x troid with each one supplying 2x12v+1x7v. each 2x12v will supply the Sapphire boards and the other 7v will supply each ANT reg.
extended connections of USB and LAN hard wired straight onto RPi and fed to front/back of case.
music storage will be USB connector with MicroSD card dongle at front of case.
rear of case will be LAN and USB connectors which i will plug USB WiFi dongle into.
trap door in bottom of case for access to RPi OS MicroSD card.
all wrapped up in its own case with no phono sockets in site as everything will be hard wired.
at the moment i'm almost there and the only thing missing is the self powered USB and custom case. i'll make that once i have all the correct sizes and have played with positions of components.
...............................
cant wait till my new toroidal's arrive so i can start using those ANT regulators.
my plan:
RPi + Dac run off one of ANT reg (might upgrade to two later on and have separate reg for each RPI and I2S DAC).
USB data bus from socket to RPi and another ANT reg supplying USB power (sort of powered hub)
2x troid with each one supplying 2x12v+1x7v. each 2x12v will supply the Sapphire boards and the other 7v will supply each ANT reg.
extended connections of USB and LAN hard wired straight onto RPi and fed to front/back of case.
music storage will be USB connector with MicroSD card dongle at front of case.
rear of case will be LAN and USB connectors which i will plug USB WiFi dongle into.
trap door in bottom of case for access to RPi OS MicroSD card.
all wrapped up in its own case with no phono sockets in site as everything will be hard wired.
at the moment i'm almost there and the only thing missing is the self powered USB and custom case. i'll make that once i have all the correct sizes and have played with positions of components.
This looks interesting.
https://www.hifiberry.com/product/hifiberry-dac-pro/
A recent Pi Linux Kernel update allows this DAC to run in master mode. If configured to do so it does not take it's clock from the Pi, but from two on board clocks for 48KHz and 44.1KHz timebases. I'm no expert but I would think, all other things being equal, that has to be a step forward for sound quality. You can easily hack into the PSU rail and I2S lines too. Anybody tried one?
https://www.hifiberry.com/product/hifiberry-dac-pro/
A recent Pi Linux Kernel update allows this DAC to run in master mode. If configured to do so it does not take it's clock from the Pi, but from two on board clocks for 48KHz and 44.1KHz timebases. I'm no expert but I would think, all other things being equal, that has to be a step forward for sound quality. You can easily hack into the PSU rail and I2S lines too. Anybody tried one?
@ Forta
Bingo Pi XII is back again !
I know what is 32 bits, I played with enough 32 bits servers before... to know it ! Thanks !
You're talking about 0&1 and I know that some schools begins to speak about Informatic without speaking about electricy laws, but it's not about bit perfect (we hope it is, sure !) that if people try I2S instead USB output with their Pi ! You can have problem of noise, impedance problems... that are hearable ! You must understand than the support is...analogic ! An isolator doesn't solve all ...allas, and certainly not the layout problems...many can hear this ! And even with all the IanCanada devices... in witch you may invest to push your dac to an other level. For the Fun you can also play with cells before your LDO to see if 0&1 gives a different sound...If it changes, it's certainly not about 0&1 !
Well I agree for many a Pi + USB to I2S board + DAC is good enough.
Bingo Pi XII is back again !
I know what is 32 bits, I played with enough 32 bits servers before... to know it ! Thanks !
You're talking about 0&1 and I know that some schools begins to speak about Informatic without speaking about electricy laws, but it's not about bit perfect (we hope it is, sure !) that if people try I2S instead USB output with their Pi ! You can have problem of noise, impedance problems... that are hearable ! You must understand than the support is...analogic ! An isolator doesn't solve all ...allas, and certainly not the layout problems...many can hear this ! And even with all the IanCanada devices... in witch you may invest to push your dac to an other level. For the Fun you can also play with cells before your LDO to see if 0&1 gives a different sound
...If it changes, it's certainly not about 0&1 !Well I agree for many a Pi + USB to I2S board + DAC is good enough.
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Should be a good SQ/P ratio ! Not sure it becomes a MCLK, but at least :asynchronous resync...? same as with USB to I2S externalboards ! If it's stacked it would take the signal from the I2S of the Pi !
It could be fun to hack the powersupply management of the DAC
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