shane_ceglar said:
Yes, your right its got nothing to do with me. Just trying to offer some insights and advice.
Good luck.
ShinOBIWAN said:
ShinOBIWAN,
This is my error for not using the quote function before.. I was actually responding to stoolpigeons post. Appologies for the confusion.
I like your boxing cat BTW 🙂
Shane
Hello all,
First, let me say that I am really honored by the amount of attention that my products are enjoying on diyAudio. It is really like a dream came true for me and I thank you all for this.
Let me explain a few things about my business, as nobody bothered to ask in the first place when all this began. I saw here some type of comments that imply that I want to charge more because of positive "press". Very not true, so I decided to post on DIY forum, even though I am not a DIY any more and I feel I have no right to express any opinions of my own here, as I'm making money out of engineering my opinions into my products.
So,
limited amount of manufactured drivers per given period of time. Because of the way my products are engineered, they are what they are and that can only be made by very labour intensive hand work by very skilled persons. If they are to be manufatured on industrial scale, they would not perform in the same way. Needless to say, I will not bring the level of performance down for the sake of quantity.
Limited quantity, but still fluent sales, means careful selection of OEM manufacturers. I can supply maybe up to 10-ish high-end (in my own perception of that term) speaker manufacturers and no more, hence, I will only sell to OEMs whose work I know and respect. If I don't know their work, it may take months to build a realtionship that qualifies for OEM purchase. Basically, I need to be introduced with their project in detail, so I could be sure that their application of my products will be properly executed. That means, I don't sell to guys with car wash companies as they are not serious speaker OEM buyers.
Chrismercurio got the OEM price list because he introduced himself as a representative of the company that he works for. That company would clearly qualify for OEM purchase, from the looks of it, but may not qualify after explaining what their intention with my products would be, or if I sense any lack of their expertise in that field.
I've met Crhis and he is a great guy. I don't mind public misinformation posting. He had good intentions and that's what counts.
But clearly, any attempt of posing as OEM buyer would fail instantly if that really isn't the truth. I poke my nose deep into my potential client's business plans.
By doing that, I am trying to build long term relationship with my clients and I deeply respect their effort and wishes. It is not a small matter to invest heaps of money into manufacturing very expensive speakers that rely on my present and future work. Of course, I have to help protect their business, as well as they are keeping mine alive. One of those wishes is to stop supplying DIY market at whatever the price, but I still use my prerogatives as the maker of these things, to continue to supply DIY if I want to, and I really continue to do so, as you all very well know.
It's not an easy balancing act to do, but if it takes that you guys need to pay more than speaker manufacturers and keep two models available to DIY, so be it. I don't have a problem with that, as it is very well known practice. If that bothers some of you, please look other way. I am not the only manufacturer of the ribbons in the world.
The last but not least, the level of personal support that I give to my clients is above any known level in this business. It comes from my days as DIY that has repeatedly been brushed off by big manufacturers, so I decided to take a very different approach to that matter. I like the way I have set up my business model for now and I really don't see any need to change it. I'm happy and my clent's are, too.
I genuinely appreciate your interest, guys, but I just can't afford to make exceptions. I hope you will all understand.
All the best to everyone,
First, let me say that I am really honored by the amount of attention that my products are enjoying on diyAudio. It is really like a dream came true for me and I thank you all for this.
Let me explain a few things about my business, as nobody bothered to ask in the first place when all this began. I saw here some type of comments that imply that I want to charge more because of positive "press". Very not true, so I decided to post on DIY forum, even though I am not a DIY any more and I feel I have no right to express any opinions of my own here, as I'm making money out of engineering my opinions into my products.
So,
limited amount of manufactured drivers per given period of time. Because of the way my products are engineered, they are what they are and that can only be made by very labour intensive hand work by very skilled persons. If they are to be manufatured on industrial scale, they would not perform in the same way. Needless to say, I will not bring the level of performance down for the sake of quantity.
Limited quantity, but still fluent sales, means careful selection of OEM manufacturers. I can supply maybe up to 10-ish high-end (in my own perception of that term) speaker manufacturers and no more, hence, I will only sell to OEMs whose work I know and respect. If I don't know their work, it may take months to build a realtionship that qualifies for OEM purchase. Basically, I need to be introduced with their project in detail, so I could be sure that their application of my products will be properly executed. That means, I don't sell to guys with car wash companies as they are not serious speaker OEM buyers.
Chrismercurio got the OEM price list because he introduced himself as a representative of the company that he works for. That company would clearly qualify for OEM purchase, from the looks of it, but may not qualify after explaining what their intention with my products would be, or if I sense any lack of their expertise in that field.
I've met Crhis and he is a great guy. I don't mind public misinformation posting. He had good intentions and that's what counts.
But clearly, any attempt of posing as OEM buyer would fail instantly if that really isn't the truth. I poke my nose deep into my potential client's business plans.
By doing that, I am trying to build long term relationship with my clients and I deeply respect their effort and wishes. It is not a small matter to invest heaps of money into manufacturing very expensive speakers that rely on my present and future work. Of course, I have to help protect their business, as well as they are keeping mine alive. One of those wishes is to stop supplying DIY market at whatever the price, but I still use my prerogatives as the maker of these things, to continue to supply DIY if I want to, and I really continue to do so, as you all very well know.
It's not an easy balancing act to do, but if it takes that you guys need to pay more than speaker manufacturers and keep two models available to DIY, so be it. I don't have a problem with that, as it is very well known practice. If that bothers some of you, please look other way. I am not the only manufacturer of the ribbons in the world.
The last but not least, the level of personal support that I give to my clients is above any known level in this business. It comes from my days as DIY that has repeatedly been brushed off by big manufacturers, so I decided to take a very different approach to that matter. I like the way I have set up my business model for now and I really don't see any need to change it. I'm happy and my clent's are, too.
I genuinely appreciate your interest, guys, but I just can't afford to make exceptions. I hope you will all understand.
All the best to everyone,
Hi Aleksandar,
thank you very much for your response.
I will contact you privately.
regards
Harry
thank you very much for your response.
I will contact you privately.
regards
Harry
169 euro was ridiculously cheap. I think that's why there is such fervent interest in a group buy. At that price I would buy a set even if I don't need them yet, now I will take the time to design something carefully.
I can understand your reasons Aleksandar. Thankyou for explaining it, many wouldn't have bothered.
I'll have to wait a bit longer to save the money before buying any. I'd be happy to share international part of shipping costs with someone else in Australia when I'm ready to purchase in January/February.
I can understand your reasons Aleksandar. Thankyou for explaining it, many wouldn't have bothered.
I'll have to wait a bit longer to save the money before buying any. I'd be happy to share international part of shipping costs with someone else in Australia when I'm ready to purchase in January/February.
Hi Aleksandar, nice to see you here.
We are not discussing here the difference between OEM and end user price, as this is clear and usual.
What we are asking to you is a "Dealer" price, because we are able, and have been able, to collect a ten thousand euro worth order in a few days. I would be very glad for such a dealer for my own products. 🙂
So, here we have a 10.000 Euro order ready for you. If you accept it, I think this group buy will continue for years. It will produce new projects, no doubt positive feedbacks, and maybe more interest by OEM. 🙂
We are not discussing here the difference between OEM and end user price, as this is clear and usual.
What we are asking to you is a "Dealer" price, because we are able, and have been able, to collect a ten thousand euro worth order in a few days. I would be very glad for such a dealer for my own products. 🙂
So, here we have a 10.000 Euro order ready for you. If you accept it, I think this group buy will continue for years. It will produce new projects, no doubt positive feedbacks, and maybe more interest by OEM. 🙂
Hi Thomaseliot,
I understand that you are able to collect significant order, but you don't seem to understand that whatever quantity, you guys can't have the same status as dealers. They are taking some responsibilities by being dealers, while you are not. Simple as that. For example, when they buy their stock, they don't know when they are going to sell it, so they have to be supported by lowest price I can give them, as well as by not selling direct to DIY at the same price they bought their stock.
I'm pretty sure that if you guys collectively approach to any of my dealers, they will give you significant discount that may turn out to be very interesting for you, considering that I will do only FedEx shipping.
I bet nobody bothered to ask them either...
Cheers,
I understand that you are able to collect significant order, but you don't seem to understand that whatever quantity, you guys can't have the same status as dealers. They are taking some responsibilities by being dealers, while you are not. Simple as that. For example, when they buy their stock, they don't know when they are going to sell it, so they have to be supported by lowest price I can give them, as well as by not selling direct to DIY at the same price they bought their stock.
I'm pretty sure that if you guys collectively approach to any of my dealers, they will give you significant discount that may turn out to be very interesting for you, considering that I will do only FedEx shipping.
I bet nobody bothered to ask them either...
Cheers,
Hi Aleksander,
Its unfortunate that but OEM pricing is not available to us. I was thinking a legitimate manufacturer of electronic products would qualify, car-wash jokes aside.. its not easy been small, but seems to me that this is where it all starts.
Thanks for your response, I can focus on other things now.
Sincerely,
Shane Ceglar
Its unfortunate that but OEM pricing is not available to us. I was thinking a legitimate manufacturer of electronic products would qualify, car-wash jokes aside.. its not easy been small, but seems to me that this is where it all starts.
Thanks for your response, I can focus on other things now.
Sincerely,
Shane Ceglar
Hi Shane and all,
well, yes. Being small has its good sides and its bad sides. The bad side being that you can't make everybody happy and "something's gotta give".
I feel very sorry about that, because it is a wonderful compliment for me that approx 25 people came together in agreement that what I do is good for all of you, even if you guys have very different projects in mind. It means a lot to me.
But in this business, the reputation is the only asset you have and I don't want to mess with mine. I'm talking about industry that I want to supply.
There is a different business model for different business goals. Usually, small manufacturers that are oriented to handmade component products, don't sell to OEMs at all. Think of some turntable arms or cartriges manufacturers, for example. They are very expensive and there are very tangible economic reasons for that (read: man hours), but they don't have to keep both DIY and OEMs happy. One simple rule: sell DIY at retail prices. On the other hand, I am very well aware that my ribbons are not in the retail price peak for that product segment, but I still offer probably the best product. Now, go figure how that adds up. It adds up by keeping the OEMs happy and have a steady income from them. Certainly, there is a lot of effort from my side to keep DIY sales feasible and I will do my best to keep it like that for as long as I can, but at one point in the future, I will start my own finished speakers line, and slowly turn down the DIY sales to the end, except for very exotic omidirectional and very high efficiency tweeters at very high prices.
I'm not sayin': "get them while you can", but I will certainly continue to develop my business in a direction that requires less of my personal hours for the same turnover. As in any business, the growth of the company lets the owner to use less of his/hers own personal hours by exchanging the profit for someone else's hours built in new products. Now, if the growth lets you to enter another market segment, you will do that, especially if that segment makes more money per paid hours and finished speakers are far better in that regard than making tweeters only.
Well, I could go on and on about my plans for the future, but I won't bother you all with that. The main thing here is that I'm really sorry that you guys are not happy with the discount that situation allows me to give you, and if some exploration was done by Chris before he started this, we could avoid misunderstanding. The rules were the same before this initiative as they are today.
This is all about what you guys can afford, and that is something I can deeply relate to.
If I can get you interested in the 70-10D model that certainly fits your budget for the group buy on 50ish pieces, that would be good. It sounds almost the same as 140-15D above 2.8-3.0k, but with 2.5-3.0 dB less efficiency and with far greater vertical dispersion(50 deg @ 20k vertical) as it has it's own deflector pads, too, that allow the HF rise to be dispersed vertically thus getting totally flat response on and off axis. The max SPL is about 112-113 dB.
You could think about that one.
Thank you all for your interest in my work! It is very much appreciated from my part.
P.S. I will not post any more on DIY forums, and I urge you all not to think of my posts as shameless self-promotion. I just had to explain a few business policies that RAAL is governed with and offer some other solution for having equally good sound.
Good bye!
well, yes. Being small has its good sides and its bad sides. The bad side being that you can't make everybody happy and "something's gotta give".
I feel very sorry about that, because it is a wonderful compliment for me that approx 25 people came together in agreement that what I do is good for all of you, even if you guys have very different projects in mind. It means a lot to me.
But in this business, the reputation is the only asset you have and I don't want to mess with mine. I'm talking about industry that I want to supply.
There is a different business model for different business goals. Usually, small manufacturers that are oriented to handmade component products, don't sell to OEMs at all. Think of some turntable arms or cartriges manufacturers, for example. They are very expensive and there are very tangible economic reasons for that (read: man hours), but they don't have to keep both DIY and OEMs happy. One simple rule: sell DIY at retail prices. On the other hand, I am very well aware that my ribbons are not in the retail price peak for that product segment, but I still offer probably the best product. Now, go figure how that adds up. It adds up by keeping the OEMs happy and have a steady income from them. Certainly, there is a lot of effort from my side to keep DIY sales feasible and I will do my best to keep it like that for as long as I can, but at one point in the future, I will start my own finished speakers line, and slowly turn down the DIY sales to the end, except for very exotic omidirectional and very high efficiency tweeters at very high prices.
I'm not sayin': "get them while you can", but I will certainly continue to develop my business in a direction that requires less of my personal hours for the same turnover. As in any business, the growth of the company lets the owner to use less of his/hers own personal hours by exchanging the profit for someone else's hours built in new products. Now, if the growth lets you to enter another market segment, you will do that, especially if that segment makes more money per paid hours and finished speakers are far better in that regard than making tweeters only.
Well, I could go on and on about my plans for the future, but I won't bother you all with that. The main thing here is that I'm really sorry that you guys are not happy with the discount that situation allows me to give you, and if some exploration was done by Chris before he started this, we could avoid misunderstanding. The rules were the same before this initiative as they are today.
This is all about what you guys can afford, and that is something I can deeply relate to.
If I can get you interested in the 70-10D model that certainly fits your budget for the group buy on 50ish pieces, that would be good. It sounds almost the same as 140-15D above 2.8-3.0k, but with 2.5-3.0 dB less efficiency and with far greater vertical dispersion(50 deg @ 20k vertical) as it has it's own deflector pads, too, that allow the HF rise to be dispersed vertically thus getting totally flat response on and off axis. The max SPL is about 112-113 dB.
You could think about that one.
Thank you all for your interest in my work! It is very much appreciated from my part.
P.S. I will not post any more on DIY forums, and I urge you all not to think of my posts as shameless self-promotion. I just had to explain a few business policies that RAAL is governed with and offer some other solution for having equally good sound.
Good bye!
Hi Aleksandar,
In this while you are not enough famous to "slowly turn down the DIY sales to the end", try to see things on a DIY point of view.
Nobody here wants to pay less your work, that is the 153 euro part you get if we buy from a distributor 50+ pieces. What bothers me, as diyer, is that I have to contact Herr Manfred Zoller, the only distributor in EU whose language I understand. This distributor has not an internet site (Hesse&Partner is a Finance consulting firm, maybe his day job) and not even a business email (he has an admin address of audiovideoforum.de). Well, suppose I obtain a price of 250 Euro from him (more than 30% off): this guy will earn 100 euro for each piece, that is 5000 euro, 7000 US dollars, 7800 AUD. All his "responsibilities by being dealers" is to drop an email to you and get the money. I repeat better, 5000 euro for an email, an invoice, a money transfer to you and another to pay VAT.
You say that this 5000 euro more we would pay to Herr Manfred Zoller is beacause "the reputation is the only asset you have and I don't want to mess with mine. I'm talking about industry that I want to supply". You must be aware that this kind of reputation is what every diyer hates. Don't ask them to pay for it.
Best wishes for your future in the danceable cable market.
P.S.
Sorry guys, I'm off the group buy and I will unsubscribe this thread 🙁
In this while you are not enough famous to "slowly turn down the DIY sales to the end", try to see things on a DIY point of view.
Nobody here wants to pay less your work, that is the 153 euro part you get if we buy from a distributor 50+ pieces. What bothers me, as diyer, is that I have to contact Herr Manfred Zoller, the only distributor in EU whose language I understand. This distributor has not an internet site (Hesse&Partner is a Finance consulting firm, maybe his day job) and not even a business email (he has an admin address of audiovideoforum.de). Well, suppose I obtain a price of 250 Euro from him (more than 30% off): this guy will earn 100 euro for each piece, that is 5000 euro, 7000 US dollars, 7800 AUD. All his "responsibilities by being dealers" is to drop an email to you and get the money. I repeat better, 5000 euro for an email, an invoice, a money transfer to you and another to pay VAT.
You say that this 5000 euro more we would pay to Herr Manfred Zoller is beacause "the reputation is the only asset you have and I don't want to mess with mine. I'm talking about industry that I want to supply". You must be aware that this kind of reputation is what every diyer hates. Don't ask them to pay for it.
Best wishes for your future in the danceable cable market.
P.S.
Sorry guys, I'm off the group buy and I will unsubscribe this thread 🙁
RAAL said:
I asked Mr. Zoller, he wrote me he gives discount only for companies. Would be nice if you could talk to him about this issue.
Some time ago I had an idea for an omnidirectional midrange driver complementing a 360° ribbon in the 4Pi-style. Would be nice to hear your opinion (especially about driving force / Mms ratio) in the alternative technologies forum. Too sad you won`t post any more at diyaudio.com.RAAL said:
Oliver
Hi thomaseliot,
I could wind down DIY sales in the year from now, probably. If I feel like it, I can do it today, and you are making me to consider it right now. I was never guided with my present situation, but with what will be better for me in the future. NIKE had a really good slogan.
Obviously, Manfred has his own judgment in this case and his own business rules that he follows. His history in the business is that he was the distributor who sold 2M DEM worth of Focals in Germany in the old days. Back then, there was no Internet, and the rules are changed, but he knows better than I do, what DIYs have been paying before(and still do) for some famous dome tweeters that can't come close to what I do, and that the same dome tweeters are cheaper on those quantities for OEMs than my prices. One of those famous tweeters that costs up to 485€ retail, can be purchased by OEMs for 78€, so stop bitchin' me about the OEM-Retail price difference. Go to Scandinavia and show them your calculations with a tear in your eye and see if maybe they'll have some mercy on DIYs in Europe. I can just tell you that OEMs are getting goose pimples when they see my OEM prices and many of them can't afford that luxury. Also, by the time OEMs import the tweeters, they cost them about 40-60% more, depending on the qty. For that same money they can buy 2 of those famous tweeters, so you, as a DIY, are priviledged to be able to buy my tweeter for the same price as that famous tweeter costs.
Now you tell me, who is in a better position, you or OEMs?
OEMs have to pay more for the quality, DIYs don't.
I rest my case.
BTW, how do you know that Manfred will make whatever€ per piece.
Where is the shipping and freight forwarding, insurance, customs duty, VAT, customs brokerage fees...plus, the exact cut between us on pre-sold orders is different than you might think. We support each other. I don't build senseless relationships with my dealers where one side gets all and the other gets nothing.
Hi Oliver,
I will talk to Manfred about this, but I can't promise anything.
Well, you see what happens when I post. There's always a few people to whom I have to defend my way of doing things, whether it's about engineering or the way I run my company(and I don't run it differently than anyone else)
Recently, I was showing how my products are engineered and built at The Burning Amp Fest in SF. What more could I do? I showed to DIYs how to engineer and make good ribbons, spilled out all I know about that, let the parts be passed among the audience, assembled in front of them, and there are still some people that are not happy with how I do things. No other speaker manufacturer has ever done that, except Nelson Pass with amplifiers, and I still have to explain myself.
Well, no thanks, but I have no time to deal with that kind of BS.
To conclude:
I can sell direct to countries that are not covered with my dealers.
I can give up to 25% (off the retail) discount on group DIY buy.
I can do separate or bulk shipping via FedEx.
Now, really, Good Bye to all.
I could wind down DIY sales in the year from now, probably. If I feel like it, I can do it today, and you are making me to consider it right now. I was never guided with my present situation, but with what will be better for me in the future. NIKE had a really good slogan.
Obviously, Manfred has his own judgment in this case and his own business rules that he follows. His history in the business is that he was the distributor who sold 2M DEM worth of Focals in Germany in the old days. Back then, there was no Internet, and the rules are changed, but he knows better than I do, what DIYs have been paying before(and still do) for some famous dome tweeters that can't come close to what I do, and that the same dome tweeters are cheaper on those quantities for OEMs than my prices. One of those famous tweeters that costs up to 485€ retail, can be purchased by OEMs for 78€, so stop bitchin' me about the OEM-Retail price difference. Go to Scandinavia and show them your calculations with a tear in your eye and see if maybe they'll have some mercy on DIYs in Europe. I can just tell you that OEMs are getting goose pimples when they see my OEM prices and many of them can't afford that luxury. Also, by the time OEMs import the tweeters, they cost them about 40-60% more, depending on the qty. For that same money they can buy 2 of those famous tweeters, so you, as a DIY, are priviledged to be able to buy my tweeter for the same price as that famous tweeter costs.
Now you tell me, who is in a better position, you or OEMs?
OEMs have to pay more for the quality, DIYs don't.
I rest my case.
BTW, how do you know that Manfred will make whatever€ per piece.
Where is the shipping and freight forwarding, insurance, customs duty, VAT, customs brokerage fees...plus, the exact cut between us on pre-sold orders is different than you might think. We support each other. I don't build senseless relationships with my dealers where one side gets all and the other gets nothing.
Hi Oliver,
I will talk to Manfred about this, but I can't promise anything.
Well, you see what happens when I post. There's always a few people to whom I have to defend my way of doing things, whether it's about engineering or the way I run my company(and I don't run it differently than anyone else)
Recently, I was showing how my products are engineered and built at The Burning Amp Fest in SF. What more could I do? I showed to DIYs how to engineer and make good ribbons, spilled out all I know about that, let the parts be passed among the audience, assembled in front of them, and there are still some people that are not happy with how I do things. No other speaker manufacturer has ever done that, except Nelson Pass with amplifiers, and I still have to explain myself.
Well, no thanks, but I have no time to deal with that kind of BS.
To conclude:
I can sell direct to countries that are not covered with my dealers.
I can give up to 25% (off the retail) discount on group DIY buy.
I can do separate or bulk shipping via FedEx.
Now, really, Good Bye to all.
geez guys - if you really 'believe' these ribbons to be superior (i see no reason why they are) pay the fellows price and be done with it.
I really can't say for sure but my gut tells me they really aren't anything special - if you feel they are better than many other quality ribbons available out there for less then cough up the dough
I really can't say for sure but my gut tells me they really aren't anything special - if you feel they are better than many other quality ribbons available out there for less then cough up the dough
Raal Sound Quality
Hi guys,
it is really funny watching you guys talking about the quality (sound and engineering) of this world class ribbon.
I think most of you did never hear a Raal tweeter, otherwise the discussion about price would go in another direction
I own a pair and I have sold any other tweeter I had including Accuton Diamond tweeter (D20 and D30) Mundorf Air Motion transformer,
Raven R2 and all the range of Scandinavian well regarded tweeters from Seas, Scan Speak and Hiquphon.
These tweeter outperfom any tweeter here on the planet.
This was the best deal I ever made on speakers.
Maybe you know the retail price of the Accuton Diamond tweeters; I would even prever a Raal for the same price.
And for sure the Raal tweeter will be my last tweeter.
So considering that you will save a lot of money the next years for other tweeters (the search is over), the Raal is the real bargain.
Regards
Rainer
Hi guys,
it is really funny watching you guys talking about the quality (sound and engineering) of this world class ribbon.
I think most of you did never hear a Raal tweeter, otherwise the discussion about price would go in another direction
I own a pair and I have sold any other tweeter I had including Accuton Diamond tweeter (D20 and D30) Mundorf Air Motion transformer,
Raven R2 and all the range of Scandinavian well regarded tweeters from Seas, Scan Speak and Hiquphon.
These tweeter outperfom any tweeter here on the planet.
This was the best deal I ever made on speakers.
Maybe you know the retail price of the Accuton Diamond tweeters; I would even prever a Raal for the same price.
And for sure the Raal tweeter will be my last tweeter.
So considering that you will save a lot of money the next years for other tweeters (the search is over), the Raal is the real bargain.
Regards
Rainer
What's happened here?
People pushing Alex up against a wall, Alex defending his position in a forthright manner and folks offering 'opinions' on the performance without even hearing the products being discussed.
Its only a tweeter, if you can't afford, can't live with knowing you aren't getting OEM pricing or aren't willing to pay the RRP+discount then there's a ton of other tweeters out there. The RAAL is great but its not worth stooping to these lows over.
Come on lighten up.
People pushing Alex up against a wall, Alex defending his position in a forthright manner and folks offering 'opinions' on the performance without even hearing the products being discussed.
Its only a tweeter, if you can't afford, can't live with knowing you aren't getting OEM pricing or aren't willing to pay the RRP+discount then there's a ton of other tweeters out there. The RAAL is great but its not worth stooping to these lows over.
Come on lighten up.
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