Most problems seem to occur from the application of too much glue to the veneer. I recommend a foam roller because it's actually tough to put on too much, or if the glue's too thick, it won't roll on at all.
Most likely, the veneer expanded after soaking in the glue, or it was never acclimated to begin with. Indoor humidity in winter can be extremely dry w/o humidification.
You must let the glue dry completely before ironing on.
I also didn't understand why you felt the need to clamp with anther board. Once the ironing is done, the glue is re-activated and is set. The only thing I do is a scrape with a veneer block immediately after ironing while it's still warm.
Contact cement does not create a hard bond and is not really recommended for use with unbacked veneer. Most contact cement is rubber or neoprene based. It is designed to let the material move around some w/o pulling loose. Bleed thru is also a problem when using it on raw veneer.
Pete
Most likely, the veneer expanded after soaking in the glue, or it was never acclimated to begin with. Indoor humidity in winter can be extremely dry w/o humidification.
You must let the glue dry completely before ironing on.
I also didn't understand why you felt the need to clamp with anther board. Once the ironing is done, the glue is re-activated and is set. The only thing I do is a scrape with a veneer block immediately after ironing while it's still warm.
Contact cement does not create a hard bond and is not really recommended for use with unbacked veneer. Most contact cement is rubber or neoprene based. It is designed to let the material move around some w/o pulling loose. Bleed thru is also a problem when using it on raw veneer.
Pete
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
The glue I used was called "Crosslinking PVA" and was labelled as heat-resistant. I guess that's why I was afraid to see it dry completely...
It is summer here in Australia, with 30+ degree celcius days here in sunny Perth. I had left the veneer in the same room for a few days before applying.
Will try again soon, with foam roller and report on my findings.
Thanks Pete.
It is summer here in Australia, with 30+ degree celcius days here in sunny Perth. I had left the veneer in the same room for a few days before applying.
Will try again soon, with foam roller and report on my findings.
Thanks Pete.
I can attest to the fact that contact cement is a poor choice for unbacked veneer. I did this with my first set of speakers and they have bubbled very badly. They were fine for a month or so, until I put a urethane finish on them. I think the solvents soaked through the veneer and loosened the contact cement. I have tried resetting the veneer with an iron, but it only holds for a few weeks and bubbles again.
Any suggestions for removing the old veneer/contact cement and starting over with the yellow glue/iron method? Will the PVA glue's bond be reduced by any remaining contact cement "soaked" into the mdf? Maybe I should just build brand new boxes...
Any suggestions for removing the old veneer/contact cement and starting over with the yellow glue/iron method? Will the PVA glue's bond be reduced by any remaining contact cement "soaked" into the mdf? Maybe I should just build brand new boxes...
tktran said:
Titebond II is a PVA glue and it's application includes use for hot presses, which make it fine for the iron-on method.
Using a foam roller cover, I find I need to thin the Titebond with maybe 10% water to get it to roll on easily, rather than just pushing it around with the roller. I put a thin coat on the back of the veneer and 2 heavier coats on the substrate. When it turns from a light yellow to translucent amber, it's dry enough to work with. As with anything you've never done before, I recommend a test piece if you can spare a little material.
I've never heard of Australian Myrtle, let alone work with it. It sounds like it has some sort of backer on it to hold the flitches in a sheet form, so it should be ideal.
I'm amazed tho that using wood glue, the veneer actually shrunk and pulled across the substrate. Even if it had swelled some from too much glue, once bonded, it shouldn't have enough internal stress to pull open a seam.
Pete
Pete
Edges
Hello, I have a question for our veneering expert Pete Mazz. I have no problem vennering any cabinet but my goal (in life) is now to do perfect edge. I still did not find the best way to do perfect edge (I mean like commercial cabinet). Even if you sand it down carefully and you look very close at the edge, you will still see the edge and the paper under the wood. Is there a way to do perfect edge? Maybe for commercial cabinets, they put the veneer before cutting the parts for the cabinet and the veneer is cut a 45 degrees? Anyway, after many years of veneering I am still not satisfied with the result (but I now, I am perfectionist).
Hello, I have a question for our veneering expert Pete Mazz. I have no problem vennering any cabinet but my goal (in life) is now to do perfect edge. I still did not find the best way to do perfect edge (I mean like commercial cabinet). Even if you sand it down carefully and you look very close at the edge, you will still see the edge and the paper under the wood. Is there a way to do perfect edge? Maybe for commercial cabinets, they put the veneer before cutting the parts for the cabinet and the veneer is cut a 45 degrees? Anyway, after many years of veneering I am still not satisfied with the result (but I now, I am perfectionist).
Around here, there is a custom wood furniture maker and while visiting his shop, he gave me some tricks.
The first one is not to use full 45 degrees angles while making corners, these will never fit perfectly. He prefers a method called corner interlocking. (it might also be refered to as lock mitre) The only problem with this method is that hard woods might be a pain to process, but for MDF it is more than ideal. It is important to keep your bit in good cutting shape as it will be the finishing touch on your veneer, if it isn't cutting properly, your veneer might shatter or even lift from the surface.
The second one was to veneer the full board before cutting whenever possible. If you do it right and manipulate the parts carefully, you'll end up with perfect corners every time! He did mention that it is sometimes impossible to do it this way. Pieces like an arch or curved surfaces, must be veneered once finished. For these, he does it with some Contact Cement. But he said to make sure the veneer was cut at least one inch extra in each direction. It does cost a bit more but it allows you to place it and be sure you will not be short (you can always cut, but adding 1/16 of an inch is close to impossible)
The third and final trick he gave me was the following: be patient. Patience is the key. You're never too patient. A good veneering job is tedious and if you rush it, you might as well buy complete furniture.
I have tried these tricks with good results, not perfect, but good. Even my first speakers impressed a lot of people
As soon as I get a chance, I'll try to post pictures.
Sébastien
The first one is not to use full 45 degrees angles while making corners, these will never fit perfectly. He prefers a method called corner interlocking. (it might also be refered to as lock mitre) The only problem with this method is that hard woods might be a pain to process, but for MDF it is more than ideal. It is important to keep your bit in good cutting shape as it will be the finishing touch on your veneer, if it isn't cutting properly, your veneer might shatter or even lift from the surface.
The second one was to veneer the full board before cutting whenever possible. If you do it right and manipulate the parts carefully, you'll end up with perfect corners every time! He did mention that it is sometimes impossible to do it this way. Pieces like an arch or curved surfaces, must be veneered once finished. For these, he does it with some Contact Cement. But he said to make sure the veneer was cut at least one inch extra in each direction. It does cost a bit more but it allows you to place it and be sure you will not be short (you can always cut, but adding 1/16 of an inch is close to impossible)
The third and final trick he gave me was the following: be patient. Patience is the key. You're never too patient. A good veneering job is tedious and if you rush it, you might as well buy complete furniture.
I have tried these tricks with good results, not perfect, but good. Even my first speakers impressed a lot of people
As soon as I get a chance, I'll try to post pictures.
Sébastien
Thanks for your answer tool49. I was aware of the lock mitter joint, many people are using that (BTW, the router bit cost 150$ CDN) and they veneer the MDF board before cutting it (with a huge CNC machine).
I will have to find other ways.
This joint is really nice for the majority of people but I want better...
I will have to find other ways.
This joint is really nice for the majority of people but I want better...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I don't know where you got that 150$ price tag, but I bought mine at a little shop on the south shore for 49,50$CAN. I found several site online offering some at reasonable prices.
http://www.woodline.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idcategory=54
At $30US this is a good deal! And the one on the bottom is even better if you own a shaper.
What I did is that I veneered the pieces first. Cut them to the right size (with 1/64" precision) on the table saw. After that I routed every edges using my regular router affixed underneath a table with a small fence. The results are quite good. Most of the unperfection came from bad handling of the pieces on my part.
I will probably get my speakers back in a week or so, I'll be able to post pictures then.
Sébastien
http://www.woodline.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idcategory=54
At $30US this is a good deal! And the one on the bottom is even better if you own a shaper.
What I did is that I veneered the pieces first. Cut them to the right size (with 1/64" precision) on the table saw. After that I routed every edges using my regular router affixed underneath a table with a small fence. The results are quite good. Most of the unperfection came from bad handling of the pieces on my part.
I will probably get my speakers back in a week or so, I'll be able to post pictures then.
Sébastien
A 45 deg miter is one way, but you really need the big tools to do it repeatedly. Using radiused corners, however, negates the use of miters. The really big manufacturers have specialty equipment that cuts both miters (V groove) from the back of pre veneered sheet goods just shy of cutting thru the face veneer. They then literally fold an enclosure together after applying some glue to the joint. It winds up looking like the veneer is wrapped right over the corner. I have done veneer wrapping using as little as 1/8" radius and wetting the veneer to soften it. Another trick is to sand thru the paper backing just shy of the edges and then apply it. If you use contact, the glue line will show anyway, so it may not be worth it. The thicker veneer sheets are even worse. 10 mil doesn't show much but the 20 and 30 mil NBL goods will always show an edge. If you're intent on an invisible line, try raw veneer with the iron on method or the specialty glues made for raw stock. I don't use it much myself, so I can't be of much help with it. If you iron on then just keep the raw veneer flat by taping it down around the edges before applying the glue as it will want to curl. A pre-treatment isn't a bad idea either.
Clean trimming and very light sanding of the edge will keep it looking crisp. I use 3m's Stick-it silcone carbide paper. It comes in rolls 4 1/2" x 10 yards. It is excellent paper and we make sanding blocks out of 3/4" MDF that are 4" wide x ~8" long. We wrap the paper lengthwise around the blocks in differing grits. This enables you to do proper flat sanding of substrates, using 80 grit, to final cleaning and easing of finished edges using 220 grit. We use these blocks all around the shop for sanding duty as well as some tool sharpening (using longer strips on hard flat substrates).
Pete
Clean trimming and very light sanding of the edge will keep it looking crisp. I use 3m's Stick-it silcone carbide paper. It comes in rolls 4 1/2" x 10 yards. It is excellent paper and we make sanding blocks out of 3/4" MDF that are 4" wide x ~8" long. We wrap the paper lengthwise around the blocks in differing grits. This enables you to do proper flat sanding of substrates, using 80 grit, to final cleaning and easing of finished edges using 220 grit. We use these blocks all around the shop for sanding duty as well as some tool sharpening (using longer strips on hard flat substrates).
Pete
I have a further question to the veneering experts regarding glues. I don't like water based glues (they react to moisture) or contact cement (too weak) for veneering, since they appear more prone to edge lifting and delamination under stress than necessary. Are there any acrylic, polyurethane or epoxy type glues that are suitable for veneering work? I'm willing to go to a little extra expense and effort to get the best waterproof high strength bond.
Guss said:
Anybody ever hear of Oakwood Veneer? They look like they have an awesome selection of veneers and their pricing doesn't seem that bad. Can I get some feedback before I decide to make a purchase?
oakwoodveneer.com
Hi guys,
I know this post is several years old, but I have a question regarding the conversation that went on back then.
When using wood glue for veneer, it was stated to glue the substrate and back of the veneer and let it dry before ironing it on. My question is: how dry is dry. What I am getting at is: what if I let the glue dry for several days? Is that too long a time as compared to just when it dries in about an hour?
My idea was to glue the entire box, four sides, and veneer, apply two adjacent sides, let set for several days, trim, then apply the last two sides which have dried glue that is several days old. Is that too long to wait? I figure dried yellow glue is dried yellow glue. Am I wrong?
Ed
I know this post is several years old, but I have a question regarding the conversation that went on back then.
When using wood glue for veneer, it was stated to glue the substrate and back of the veneer and let it dry before ironing it on. My question is: how dry is dry. What I am getting at is: what if I let the glue dry for several days? Is that too long a time as compared to just when it dries in about an hour?
My idea was to glue the entire box, four sides, and veneer, apply two adjacent sides, let set for several days, trim, then apply the last two sides which have dried glue that is several days old. Is that too long to wait? I figure dried yellow glue is dried yellow glue. Am I wrong?
Ed
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