Ok, you've changed your mind? 😉 If not, I'm still confused 🙂
An critical observation was made and an explanation requested. With some condescension a reply was given, largely that I (and XRK and Valery) were all dreaming.
More information of actual phase shift for fb and low fb amps have been given, and a schematic of Valery's outstanding SimpleStark. Of course, image performance is subjective, cannot be measured (yet!) so highly arguable.
Again, obscuration, and now semantics.
I believe this thread should die. It has been infected by contempt.
More information of actual phase shift for fb and low fb amps have been given, and a schematic of Valery's outstanding SimpleStark. Of course, image performance is subjective, cannot be measured (yet!) so highly arguable.
Again, obscuration, and now semantics.
I believe this thread should die. It has been infected by contempt.
I'm just interested in the idea of how vertical perception happens and/or is affected in a stereo system, I know you haven't advocated it, so I'm not sure what you're so upset about
Of course, but add more feedback and it becomes even flatter.xrk971 said:
The primary feature of low or so-called no feedback amplifiers is less fidelity to the original signal than the same amplifier with a little more feedback. You may find this tiny lack of fidelity pleasant; you may be fooled into 'hearing' vertical information (which cannot be present).
You can build an amplifier so good that it doesn't need feedback. Then you can improve it by adding some feedback.
This statement is questionable (assuming you're talking about the global loop).
What we are talking about is the ratio between the global and a combination of the local feedback loops. Amplifier with no feedback is impossible. The point is where and how it is applied.
Statement "more global feedback results in better sound" is not confirmed by the properly arranged blind tests.
An amplifier with higher linearity of each stage and lower global feedback sounds better than an amplifier with lower linearity and higher global feedback with similar - or in many cases higher - measured performance.
Did I use the phase 'sounds better' in relation to more feedback? No, I think I used the term "fidelity". I accept that reduced fidelity may result in 'better sound'; I thought this thread was about why this might be.
You've been brainwashed 😉 Too much talk of miniscule phase shifts at 300kHz has warped your perception 🙂
This is not quite true. There are cases where speakers elevate an image. At a demo of Wilson speakers I commented that the stereo image was about 8ft from the floor. I was told not to slouch on the sofa. Of course this is not amplification, but is it an indication that something is wrong? Just because we like something, doesn't make it 'right'. Blind listening tests are also not scientific because you cannot precisely identify what parameters can be be held during a change, leaving the parameter of interest for evaluation.
The flat phase argument doesn't hold water either. The source material has monkeyed this aspect. One of the best sounding systems I have heard, had amp distortion around the 0.15% mark. The phase was not super flat.
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How do you know this to be a fact? Any reference is appreciated.
Which is perfectly fine. By common wisdom, everything thing we perceive is a product of a brain function, be it real, imagined or otherwise. Moreover, some accuracy and acuity of perception can be enhanced by training. Some hear it, some don't, no biggie. Just like modern physics discovered in the 21st century, Buddhists and Hindus define "reality" as an illusion (Maya) anyway, a scientifically measurable illusion, but an illusion nonetheless. 😀
And usually I perceive vertical information better using better amps, except for a few exceptions. 😕
How is this information encoded in the signals?
What is the mechanism that allows you to perceive a vertical image better?
I have a psychoacoustic suggestion to make. The perception of height seems to go hand in hand with that of depth, and possibly width too. Surely it is reasonable that in order to make sense of, particularly I think an increase in depth perception, the brain is creating some height to it since this is what it would expect in a real-world soundscape?
I said that a stero pair of signals cannot contain vertical information. That is true. Speakers obviously have a vertical effect, but this is not connected with the missing vertical information in the signals.spladski said:
That seems to be the main point of this thread.
Blind tests are more "scientific" than sighted tests. If the test is 'can we distinguish X from Y in test Z?' then we do not need to specify what it is about X and Y that we are testing; it is X and Y we are testing.
Genuine stereo is recorded with two mikes, spaced laterally. Hence there is only horizontal information. You would need to space the mikes vertically to get vertical information. Of course, many 'stereo' recordings are actually pseudo-stereo; they don't contain much in the way of genuine horizontal information either!indra1 said:
As the norm, we have two laterally spaced ears with small apertures to differentiate where a sound source is located in 3d space without a requirement for additional vertically spaced ear opening. Most people can still hear some directional cue with only one ear, perhaps not as good as both ears but those listening to hands free earphones under regular circumstances can still tell whether a particular sound originates from above or below. I think directional cue encoded on the sound we perceive is a very complex issue not easily understood.
It can be done, for example:
There are also some tests that can be performed Online LEDR™ Sound Test | Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test
Can you try these, say how you get on?
You're welcome, this may interest you too StereoTimes -- Ear Pinna and Realism in Music Reproduction
I notice distinct ghost of source on the sound field using single driver speakers. I have no really fancy stuff to try. Commercial amps like cheapo Sansuis, Sonys and local brands are no good, even an LM1875 is better than those. Class A poweramps, SE tube amps and DHT preamp helps brings more focus to vertical image.
I suspect we get vertical positioning by moving our head and seeing how the frequency response and ear difference changes. Not relevant to stereo; we cannot move the original mikes.indra1 said:
We may in addition make a rough estimate based on the frequency spectrum we heard and a guess about what it is that we heard i.e. what spectrum we might expect. However, this is not actually vertical information but a crude proxy for vertical information, which could be easily fooled.
I am going to guess that the frequency and phase response adjustments caused by our outer ear shape far exceed that caused by any competent amplifier. Certainly amplifiers usually have much flatter responses than our ears.
I don't know what you mean, I don't want to assume, can you explain in a different way? It makes me think of ghosting on TV, like a secondary image.