Recently came across this cheap subwoofer at a garage sale, now all I need are the specs to run simulations. Any loudspeaker guru here could tell me where I could find those specs (all ready checked pyramid website)- or have a any idea on the cabinet design I could use for maximum thight bass.
Thnks for your feedback
-Simon
Thnks for your feedback
-Simon
In a catalogue from -97 or so I found a driver named Pyramid WX120. Could perhaps be the same?
Specs:
Vas 132,3 l
fs 30,4 Hz
Qts 0,491
The catalogue also lists some box recomendations for car use:
closed: 26 or 49 liters
ported: 49 liters with port diam. 4" and 24 cm long
Hope this helps.
Marcus
Specs:
Vas 132,3 l
fs 30,4 Hz
Qts 0,491
The catalogue also lists some box recomendations for car use:
closed: 26 or 49 liters
ported: 49 liters with port diam. 4" and 24 cm long
Hope this helps.
Marcus
It was in a catalogue for a car audio retailer in Sweden so nothing international there I'm afraid.
Of course you can use it as a home sub. But don't expect too much of it since it is the cheapest 12" driver that I know of.
I would recomend using it when testing new ideas in quickly thrown together enclosures or something like that.
/Marcus
Of course you can use it as a home sub. But don't expect too much of it since it is the cheapest 12" driver that I know of.
I would recomend using it when testing new ideas in quickly thrown together enclosures or something like that.
/Marcus
Banned
Joined 2002
Great woofers but those specs are wrong
Those are the specs for the old sereis of this woofer. They had a clear polypropylene cone. The newer ones are an egg shell white and are VERY VERY strong.
If they are the white ones the specs are:
Vas: 1.748
Qms. 2.35
Qes. .74
Qts. .56
Xmax 3.55
Fs. 40.1 Hz
SPL 92 dB
If they are the old model clear ones let me know I have those specs somewhere also.
Pyramiid makes excellent speakers and amps. They are better than all the big name brands and have much longer warranties. In fact, the name brand companies didn't even off their piddly warranties until recent years because of Sound Around's brands like Pyramid.
I have PW1286's and they will clean most Rockfords clock. Hell, that's true of most all the huge name brands cept their highest end models. But hey, there's Pyramids to sink those battleships too and still for way less money and with longer warranties.
Those are the specs for the old sereis of this woofer. They had a clear polypropylene cone. The newer ones are an egg shell white and are VERY VERY strong.
If they are the white ones the specs are:
Vas: 1.748
Qms. 2.35
Qes. .74
Qts. .56
Xmax 3.55
Fs. 40.1 Hz
SPL 92 dB
If they are the old model clear ones let me know I have those specs somewhere also.
Pyramiid makes excellent speakers and amps. They are better than all the big name brands and have much longer warranties. In fact, the name brand companies didn't even off their piddly warranties until recent years because of Sound Around's brands like Pyramid.
I have PW1286's and they will clean most Rockfords clock. Hell, that's true of most all the huge name brands cept their highest end models. But hey, there's Pyramids to sink those battleships too and still for way less money and with longer warranties.
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Yeh but manufactors guarntee on raw speakers never covers against abuse such as clipping.
What it covers it manufactor defect like the glue on the surround coming unstuck,or the magnet failing off,etc.
Pyramid car subs are full of crap try compairing that to a cheap Pioneer car sub.
For car subwoofers all this fancy, coloured plastic cone and bolts and spiked metal designs around the frame and magnet doesn't make it a good subwoofer.
Remember a high strength magnet whether it's ceramic,Alnico,or Neodyium is what to look for rather than a big heavy magnet.
And a large voice coil 2 inch and over for a 12 inch, wound on a high temperature voice coil former[aluminium,kapton,fibreglass,normex].And a vented pole piece.
And thick rubber surround for car subs is much better than thin foam.Avoid foam surrounds for car subs cos they are absolute crap.
The cone material does NOT matter if its made of paper,because pa bass drivers are mostly made of paper and work fine.
Yeh but manufactors guarntee on raw speakers never covers against abuse such as clipping.
What it covers it manufactor defect like the glue on the surround coming unstuck,or the magnet failing off,etc.
Pyramid car subs are full of crap try compairing that to a cheap Pioneer car sub.
For car subwoofers all this fancy, coloured plastic cone and bolts and spiked metal designs around the frame and magnet doesn't make it a good subwoofer.
Remember a high strength magnet whether it's ceramic,Alnico,or Neodyium is what to look for rather than a big heavy magnet.
And a large voice coil 2 inch and over for a 12 inch, wound on a high temperature voice coil former[aluminium,kapton,fibreglass,normex].And a vented pole piece.
And thick rubber surround for car subs is much better than thin foam.Avoid foam surrounds for car subs cos they are absolute crap.
The cone material does NOT matter if its made of paper,because pa bass drivers are mostly made of paper and work fine.
Saying cone material does not matter is completely untrue.
Much of the distortion from subs using a rubber surround in fact comes from the cone.
P.A. speakers generally use an accordian edge. Their SPL's are much higher but their compression levels are not. They are designed more for volume than power. And mostly vice versa with Hi-Fi car audio.
Big difference there when comparing the two.
As far as comparing a Pioneer to a Pyramid why would I?
Did you know Sound Around in fact manufactures some of pioneers speakers for them through contracting? They also do some stuff for JVC but it is all manufacturer direct. You can even find some of the same products within both their lines.
Bottom line is if you blow a Cheap Pyramid speaker which is going to be just as hard to do, if not harder than a pioneer or Rockford, you can send it in under warranty and get a new one.
Funny cuz in LA Rockfords, Pioneers and even Pyramid speakers all sell for the same money yet triple by the time they get to the east coast where as Pyramids do not. Never said they weren't a low end brand I just said their speakers are not. And they aren't!
Unless they can show you were using higher wattages than you should have been which will most certainly show in the voice coil, blowing a speaker is covered.
ps - and I don't see one of their magnets simply falling off! You can believe Pioneer is better but that's all you have to say so. Your belief
Much of the distortion from subs using a rubber surround in fact comes from the cone.
P.A. speakers generally use an accordian edge. Their SPL's are much higher but their compression levels are not. They are designed more for volume than power. And mostly vice versa with Hi-Fi car audio.
Big difference there when comparing the two.
As far as comparing a Pioneer to a Pyramid why would I?
Did you know Sound Around in fact manufactures some of pioneers speakers for them through contracting? They also do some stuff for JVC but it is all manufacturer direct. You can even find some of the same products within both their lines.
Bottom line is if you blow a Cheap Pyramid speaker which is going to be just as hard to do, if not harder than a pioneer or Rockford, you can send it in under warranty and get a new one.
Funny cuz in LA Rockfords, Pioneers and even Pyramid speakers all sell for the same money yet triple by the time they get to the east coast where as Pyramids do not. Never said they weren't a low end brand I just said their speakers are not. And they aren't!
Unless they can show you were using higher wattages than you should have been which will most certainly show in the voice coil, blowing a speaker is covered.
ps - and I don't see one of their magnets simply falling off! You can believe Pioneer is better but that's all you have to say so. Your belief
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Well the Pyramid speaker is made with inferior parts so it can't dissapate the heat as well as a well name brand such as Pioneer.
So what i've found with very cheap car speakers is the voice coil former melts or bends,and the glue holding the voice coil falls apart.
And also it's much easier to blow a speaker by under powering it[straining the amp into clipping vus burning the voice coils],than over powering it.
And saying that it's harder to blow pyramid than pioneer or rockford fosgate is total rubbish.
I've blown several very cheap car subwoofer such as Fury,Tornado,Longmill,Pyramid,Pyle---- and they all started to buzz after about 5 mins and have an awful burning smell come from them,and then buzz and scrape every time i play music.
Wheras some JBL and Kenwood car subwoofers I've got. I put much heavier bass through them at high levels and they are only rated 200w rms and they have never ever yet started to buzz or sound like crap.
So it's the fact cheap car subwoofers are a waste of money.
Well the Pyramid speaker is made with inferior parts so it can't dissapate the heat as well as a well name brand such as Pioneer.
So what i've found with very cheap car speakers is the voice coil former melts or bends,and the glue holding the voice coil falls apart.
And also it's much easier to blow a speaker by under powering it[straining the amp into clipping vus burning the voice coils],than over powering it.
And saying that it's harder to blow pyramid than pioneer or rockford fosgate is total rubbish.
I've blown several very cheap car subwoofer such as Fury,Tornado,Longmill,Pyramid,Pyle---- and they all started to buzz after about 5 mins and have an awful burning smell come from them,and then buzz and scrape every time i play music.
Wheras some JBL and Kenwood car subwoofers I've got. I put much heavier bass through them at high levels and they are only rated 200w rms and they have never ever yet started to buzz or sound like crap.
So it's the fact cheap car subwoofers are a waste of money.
um.....ok
Dude then you must be doing something you shouldn't or wrong.
Either too much frequency gain from your crossover or too much wattage.
I have some pyramid speakers that are 10 years old!
I also have blown some but only from overloading them. Way too much wattage And WAY too much signal. I'm not saying ALL their speakers are great because there is no denying plenty are cheap and sh*tty! I also knew better than to purchase those models.
I'm pretty well educated in audio and speakers are generally made from materials bought from the same suppliers no matter what the brand.
Anyhow I'm not gonna argue. I'm currently learning about electronics period and will likely become and electronical engineer. Mainly I'm learning audio electronics and already building my own gear. I'm also a Highly skilled guitarist andmusician and sonic quality is a MAJOR must for me.
I know A LOT about speakers and the materials they use to manufacture them. To say Sound Around prodcuts are inferior is just foolish. I have a scope program I used to test them with. Speakers are generally rated by their full frequency responce. When you rate them for one frequency, generally a bass frequency, there is a HUGE drop in the RMS wattage they can handle.
They are also the makers of Lanzar. Lanzar is one of THE highest end brands in car audio and has been for quite some time. I currently have two Pyramid 12's in my trunk that I put 1000 watts RMS into and have for a quite a few years now. They are the PW1286's. I bet I'll still have them in another 10 years and I can blow away Rockford systems and what not no prob!
Dude then you must be doing something you shouldn't or wrong.
Either too much frequency gain from your crossover or too much wattage.
I have some pyramid speakers that are 10 years old!
I also have blown some but only from overloading them. Way too much wattage And WAY too much signal. I'm not saying ALL their speakers are great because there is no denying plenty are cheap and sh*tty! I also knew better than to purchase those models.
I'm pretty well educated in audio and speakers are generally made from materials bought from the same suppliers no matter what the brand.
Anyhow I'm not gonna argue. I'm currently learning about electronics period and will likely become and electronical engineer. Mainly I'm learning audio electronics and already building my own gear. I'm also a Highly skilled guitarist andmusician and sonic quality is a MAJOR must for me.
I know A LOT about speakers and the materials they use to manufacture them. To say Sound Around prodcuts are inferior is just foolish. I have a scope program I used to test them with. Speakers are generally rated by their full frequency responce. When you rate them for one frequency, generally a bass frequency, there is a HUGE drop in the RMS wattage they can handle.
They are also the makers of Lanzar. Lanzar is one of THE highest end brands in car audio and has been for quite some time. I currently have two Pyramid 12's in my trunk that I put 1000 watts RMS into and have for a quite a few years now. They are the PW1286's. I bet I'll still have them in another 10 years and I can blow away Rockford systems and what not no prob!
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Yeh but u got the best of their range in ya boot and i bet u don't abuse em like I do.
Well i pump reggae [mostly] and drum and bass through mine,and as i'm a bass freak i boost up all the bass eq on my graphics to get that chest thump and earthshaking sound blowning many subwoofers in the process and the volume is super loud too,but not into distortion.
The car subs i've got are Kenwood and JBL.
The kenwood is rated 350w rms,2.5 inch voice coil,vented pole piece,kapton former and the JBL is rated 225 w rms,fiberglass former,2 inch voice coil.
I have NOT 'cooked' the subs yet ............, but sometimes they do sound a bit strained and have snapping sounds when the voice coil hits the backplate.
Yeh but u got the best of their range in ya boot and i bet u don't abuse em like I do.
Well i pump reggae [mostly] and drum and bass through mine,and as i'm a bass freak i boost up all the bass eq on my graphics to get that chest thump and earthshaking sound blowning many subwoofers in the process and the volume is super loud too,but not into distortion.
The car subs i've got are Kenwood and JBL.
The kenwood is rated 350w rms,2.5 inch voice coil,vented pole piece,kapton former and the JBL is rated 225 w rms,fiberglass former,2 inch voice coil.
I have NOT 'cooked' the subs yet ............, but sometimes they do sound a bit strained and have snapping sounds when the voice coil hits the backplate.
Dang you might wanna consider running straight up PA subs. I'd bet slapping a couple Eminences in your trunk would make your bass untouchable by most anyone but it'd put a good hurtin on the wallet.
My bass is pretty impressive but it could be better. I have a universal bandpass windowed box and I know I could get way more out of my speakers by building two much smaller boxes to Q specs.
I've also learned using ports with a small diameter opening and WAY too much length will give you a ton of rumble. You start enhancing the bass frequencies we really can't hear, just feel. There's a pretty simple formula bassed on box size and speaker specs to determine what frequency you get based on the length of the tube but I forget offhand it's been so long since I used it.
Do you run a bass driver aside from just a sub crossover? Bass drivers give you a lot more bass and output voltage and give you way more tweaking capabilities. If you have the cash and don't have one I'd definitely throw one in there for the type of bass you like. Less chance of frying or damaging anything too.
I'd say if you ever do blow the subs you have now , throw some Pro Audio subs in there like Eminence or somethin.
My bass is pretty impressive but it could be better. I have a universal bandpass windowed box and I know I could get way more out of my speakers by building two much smaller boxes to Q specs.
I've also learned using ports with a small diameter opening and WAY too much length will give you a ton of rumble. You start enhancing the bass frequencies we really can't hear, just feel. There's a pretty simple formula bassed on box size and speaker specs to determine what frequency you get based on the length of the tube but I forget offhand it's been so long since I used it.
Do you run a bass driver aside from just a sub crossover? Bass drivers give you a lot more bass and output voltage and give you way more tweaking capabilities. If you have the cash and don't have one I'd definitely throw one in there for the type of bass you like. Less chance of frying or damaging anything too.
I'd say if you ever do blow the subs you have now , throw some Pro Audio subs in there like Eminence or somethin.
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Yeh the Eminence speakers will handle the heat fine but most of their 12 inches don't have enough x max,so they would over excersion way before my subs i got now.
The Eminence Lab 12 seems like a good driver with very large x maxx 16mm.But I can't seem to find it anywhere,since I live in London[UK] and buying over the net is out of the question.
I'd love to go for a 15 inch bass driver,but as my car is only a hatchback,there would be no room in the boot for a large cabinet.
I've got at the moment 1x 225 w rms JBL sub 12 inch,1x Kenwood 350w rms sub 12 inch both in bandpass box[three chambers] with plexiglass middle window,subs face each other in box,and u can see em.
Pair of Focal 150w rms 5 inch subs up front,pair of Audax mini dome tweeters and custom made x over.
Renegade 1600w max amp driving subs,some crappy purple Fury amp to drive the front speakers 2x 120 max,Pioneer stereo 15 band eq,Sony cd/tuner headunit 4x50w max,and some monster ofc clear 10 gauge wire from amp to subs.
Maybe me putting two different subs in a cheapy bandpass box is a bad idea,the originals drivers were some crappy 12 inch, 80w rms with purple foam surround,and no vented pole piece made by Tornado which blew emitting a lot of smoke and nasty smell[like burning rubber].
So maybe this cheapy box ain't designed to use high power drivers in it,because the box starts to 'honk' at loud volume levels,well made out of 1/2 inch chipboard i'm not surpised.
Yeh the Eminence speakers will handle the heat fine but most of their 12 inches don't have enough x max,so they would over excersion way before my subs i got now.
The Eminence Lab 12 seems like a good driver with very large x maxx 16mm.But I can't seem to find it anywhere,since I live in London[UK] and buying over the net is out of the question.
I'd love to go for a 15 inch bass driver,but as my car is only a hatchback,there would be no room in the boot for a large cabinet.
I've got at the moment 1x 225 w rms JBL sub 12 inch,1x Kenwood 350w rms sub 12 inch both in bandpass box[three chambers] with plexiglass middle window,subs face each other in box,and u can see em.
Pair of Focal 150w rms 5 inch subs up front,pair of Audax mini dome tweeters and custom made x over.
Renegade 1600w max amp driving subs,some crappy purple Fury amp to drive the front speakers 2x 120 max,Pioneer stereo 15 band eq,Sony cd/tuner headunit 4x50w max,and some monster ofc clear 10 gauge wire from amp to subs.
Maybe me putting two different subs in a cheapy bandpass box is a bad idea,the originals drivers were some crappy 12 inch, 80w rms with purple foam surround,and no vented pole piece made by Tornado which blew emitting a lot of smoke and nasty smell[like burning rubber].
So maybe this cheapy box ain't designed to use high power drivers in it,because the box starts to 'honk' at loud volume levels,well made out of 1/2 inch chipboard i'm not surpised.
Boy you have a hatchback so you really get to reek the benefits of a sub system. I remember what my hatchback was like. I had 2 10's, a custom built box and only 250 watts RMS. It pounded though. Now with my new car being a 4 door luxury/family car, my trunk just eats it up. I even bought a 6 inch diameter port and cut a hole in the rear deck but the effect is still minimal. Pull the trunk latch and I shake the houses in the neighborhood.
Check out this link. These are the Line Drivers for Sub-Woofer systems:
http://www.ultimate-sounds.com/maaudio/linedrivers.htm
I understand you can't buy stuff over the net but it's something to look into. One of these will maximize your sub system and likely you will be able to go a little bit easier on your subs with one.
I must say 15's are my favorite sized woofer for a sub system and basically in general. Not only can the bass be more powerful, it's so much cleaner and the volume is better projected.
15's and 10's are typically what's used for bass instrument amplifier systems. The very best one's at least. In instrumental amplifiers, you see a lot of speaker pairing up of different sized speakers. 15's and 10's paired up are said to be the best for the power and clarity of the 15's and the tightness and sub sonic bass qualities of the 10's.
I know you're not a Pyramid fan but check these out:
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/PW1586/detail.asp
I'm surprised by the terminals on there since this is the same series sub that I use but in a 15.....I'm betting it's just because it's a stock photo. Anyhow my 12's from this line are pretty impressive and of course have the high quality twist lock terminals. I can get the kind of bass you were talking about with your system but I've never heard my voice coils smack the magnets. I also gotta add even if your an anti Pyramid speaker fan, I am really a big fan of their amps as well:
http://www.cardiscountstereos.com/Catalog Page.asp?Product+#=PB1845X
I have last years series of these amps and they are really impressive! Pyle has some really nice ones too.
I'm also a big fan of these too, the Volfenhags:
http://www.cardiscountstereos.com/Catalog Page.asp?Product+#=ZX7170
One of the key things I learned about audio of any kind is not only looking at craftsmanship but materials. Knowing what I know about electronics, Pyramid and it's sister brands use really high quality components in their amps and many of their speaker lines.
Head units is another story. Personally I wouldn't go any other way than JVC. Sony's can be nice but I found a lot of electronics service store repairman who had forums and Sony's undoubtedly used the cheapest and worst laser mechanism on the market. The guys were even talking how the ones on the PS2's were really crappy too.
JVC probably has the most impressive amps in their stereos from what I've seen from commercial quality car receivers. Not that there isn't better but as far as commercial brands, Pioneer, Kenwood, Rockford, Sony......JVC has really impressed me the most overall and in my opinion is the very best of this brand class. If you research commercial brands, JVC has the oldest and strongest reputation in Hi Fi audio products particularly amps,tuners, recievers and sound processors. Remember, they also make Infinity, Harmon Kardon and several other very big names.
Check out this link. These are the Line Drivers for Sub-Woofer systems:
http://www.ultimate-sounds.com/maaudio/linedrivers.htm
I understand you can't buy stuff over the net but it's something to look into. One of these will maximize your sub system and likely you will be able to go a little bit easier on your subs with one.
I must say 15's are my favorite sized woofer for a sub system and basically in general. Not only can the bass be more powerful, it's so much cleaner and the volume is better projected.
15's and 10's are typically what's used for bass instrument amplifier systems. The very best one's at least. In instrumental amplifiers, you see a lot of speaker pairing up of different sized speakers. 15's and 10's paired up are said to be the best for the power and clarity of the 15's and the tightness and sub sonic bass qualities of the 10's.
I know you're not a Pyramid fan but check these out:
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/PW1586/detail.asp
I'm surprised by the terminals on there since this is the same series sub that I use but in a 15.....I'm betting it's just because it's a stock photo. Anyhow my 12's from this line are pretty impressive and of course have the high quality twist lock terminals. I can get the kind of bass you were talking about with your system but I've never heard my voice coils smack the magnets. I also gotta add even if your an anti Pyramid speaker fan, I am really a big fan of their amps as well:
http://www.cardiscountstereos.com/Catalog Page.asp?Product+#=PB1845X
I have last years series of these amps and they are really impressive! Pyle has some really nice ones too.
I'm also a big fan of these too, the Volfenhags:
http://www.cardiscountstereos.com/Catalog Page.asp?Product+#=ZX7170
One of the key things I learned about audio of any kind is not only looking at craftsmanship but materials. Knowing what I know about electronics, Pyramid and it's sister brands use really high quality components in their amps and many of their speaker lines.
Head units is another story. Personally I wouldn't go any other way than JVC. Sony's can be nice but I found a lot of electronics service store repairman who had forums and Sony's undoubtedly used the cheapest and worst laser mechanism on the market. The guys were even talking how the ones on the PS2's were really crappy too.
JVC probably has the most impressive amps in their stereos from what I've seen from commercial quality car receivers. Not that there isn't better but as far as commercial brands, Pioneer, Kenwood, Rockford, Sony......JVC has really impressed me the most overall and in my opinion is the very best of this brand class. If you research commercial brands, JVC has the oldest and strongest reputation in Hi Fi audio products particularly amps,tuners, recievers and sound processors. Remember, they also make Infinity, Harmon Kardon and several other very big names.
Hmmmm. Pyramid, quality, JVC, the best........man am I missing something or what.
I have been in the car audio biz for about 15 years now and I have never heard anything close to this, I have been competing in IASCA and USAC SLP and sound quality comps for years now and I have yet to see Pyramid in either one. I know their are quit a few guys out there that try just about anything to get the most out of the system but no one that I know or heard of has used Pyramid because of their LACK of quality in both their craftsmanship and the god awful sound they try to reporduce.
As far as Lanzar being a "high end" car audio company, that has not been try for years now. You can go to your local flea market and get Lanzar and Pyramid.
Real high end car audio companies will not sell their product to just anyone. If you have a car audio store and you want to sell the likes of JL, MB Quart, McIntosh............ you have to aply to that company. Then they will visit your store, see your showroom, see your install bay area, talk to your sales people and the installers, watch a few installs and inspect the quality of there work..........then and only after they think your store is good enough to withhold their standards will they let you sell their products (usually only after a big $$$ first order to make sure you are really serious). ITs the same way in high end home audio as well.
I think if you look closer at car audio companies you will find that the best ones make their own product or at least there higher end product. Take JL Audio, some of the best selling, most used in comp sub in recent history. They are design and for the most part biuld right here in FL. Take McIntosh, none world wide for there steller high end home audio and its the same for thier car audio gear too, is design and HAND BIULT in New York. If you want to take about a very well besigned and biuld amps look at a McIntosh sometime. They make JVC and just about anything else look like a child play toy. My 400watt McIntosh weighs in at a hefty 27lbs and bench tests at close to 1000watts RMS with a THD of .001%. THe spec are nice but the sound out of one is to die for. Course I understand that not everyone can or would spend $1600 for a 400 watt amp but if you want the high of the high end that is what it is going to take.
You say 15s are cleaner bass. Well in all my years with dealing with audio, car and home, that would be the very first time I have heard that one. Larger cones have to do stronger and usually heavier as to not distort at higher SPL. This added weight makes it very hard to control the exact movement of the subs cone. The end resalt is a muddy sounding bass on the tighter bass notes. If the cone is not strong enough it will not hold its shape thus added more distortion. Smaller drivers reduce both of these problems and with properly tune enclosure can still be made to cover the sub frequency band quit well and flat. OK, if big SPL is what you want then by all means load up on the big sub with huge amps and let then rip. But a thought to ponder on, over the past few years the trend has gone to having more smaller subs instead of fewer larder subs. If you looks at Mrs. Gates, the world record holder for most of the past ferw years she was using 10s, yes lots and lots of PPI Pro 10s( those are the one with the flat piston cone, 26lbs magnet, full cast basket, 3" VC). Now she is using Kicker Solobaric 10s. You can cover more af a given surface with cone areas with smaller subs then you can with larger ones. Some companier have even gone to making square (Kicker Solobarics) and Hex shaped subs to make covering a giving suface with cone area more efficent
As for head units I have used just about all of then and I would say JVC is good for the money. There amp are good for the money too but not what I would consider "high end". Companies like Eclispe, Clarion, Alpine........have a cleaner output, better usable features and can still be in a reasonable price range. You want to look at some nice amps take a look at the likes of McIntosh, Zapco, older PPIs, Melberts..........they all would put the JVC to shame.
I am not trying to be mean here, I just think you might not realize that there is another world of really high end car audio gear out there that you might not be seeing past the standard brand people see in big retail stores. I have heard countless setups, some using some really cheap gear, and and some sounded ok and some did not. If you like the sound then that is the hole piont of audio but I would not go saying that because you think it sound good that that means it is top of the line gear and that it is the best. If you really want to prove its wearth let the judges beside. I know that even with my $1600 amp, single $600 12 PPI Pro sub, over $2000 Esclispe DDL head unit, $1000 in MB Quart mids, highs, and OXs, and the countless 100s of hours on the install and tweeking they still have yet to tell me that mine was the best that year. Always someone else out there with more money and knowledge.
Rick
I have been in the car audio biz for about 15 years now and I have never heard anything close to this, I have been competing in IASCA and USAC SLP and sound quality comps for years now and I have yet to see Pyramid in either one. I know their are quit a few guys out there that try just about anything to get the most out of the system but no one that I know or heard of has used Pyramid because of their LACK of quality in both their craftsmanship and the god awful sound they try to reporduce.
As far as Lanzar being a "high end" car audio company, that has not been try for years now. You can go to your local flea market and get Lanzar and Pyramid.
Real high end car audio companies will not sell their product to just anyone. If you have a car audio store and you want to sell the likes of JL, MB Quart, McIntosh............ you have to aply to that company. Then they will visit your store, see your showroom, see your install bay area, talk to your sales people and the installers, watch a few installs and inspect the quality of there work..........then and only after they think your store is good enough to withhold their standards will they let you sell their products (usually only after a big $$$ first order to make sure you are really serious). ITs the same way in high end home audio as well.
I think if you look closer at car audio companies you will find that the best ones make their own product or at least there higher end product. Take JL Audio, some of the best selling, most used in comp sub in recent history. They are design and for the most part biuld right here in FL. Take McIntosh, none world wide for there steller high end home audio and its the same for thier car audio gear too, is design and HAND BIULT in New York. If you want to take about a very well besigned and biuld amps look at a McIntosh sometime. They make JVC and just about anything else look like a child play toy. My 400watt McIntosh weighs in at a hefty 27lbs and bench tests at close to 1000watts RMS with a THD of .001%. THe spec are nice but the sound out of one is to die for. Course I understand that not everyone can or would spend $1600 for a 400 watt amp but if you want the high of the high end that is what it is going to take.
You say 15s are cleaner bass. Well in all my years with dealing with audio, car and home, that would be the very first time I have heard that one. Larger cones have to do stronger and usually heavier as to not distort at higher SPL. This added weight makes it very hard to control the exact movement of the subs cone. The end resalt is a muddy sounding bass on the tighter bass notes. If the cone is not strong enough it will not hold its shape thus added more distortion. Smaller drivers reduce both of these problems and with properly tune enclosure can still be made to cover the sub frequency band quit well and flat. OK, if big SPL is what you want then by all means load up on the big sub with huge amps and let then rip. But a thought to ponder on, over the past few years the trend has gone to having more smaller subs instead of fewer larder subs. If you looks at Mrs. Gates, the world record holder for most of the past ferw years she was using 10s, yes lots and lots of PPI Pro 10s( those are the one with the flat piston cone, 26lbs magnet, full cast basket, 3" VC). Now she is using Kicker Solobaric 10s. You can cover more af a given surface with cone areas with smaller subs then you can with larger ones. Some companier have even gone to making square (Kicker Solobarics) and Hex shaped subs to make covering a giving suface with cone area more efficent
As for head units I have used just about all of then and I would say JVC is good for the money. There amp are good for the money too but not what I would consider "high end". Companies like Eclispe, Clarion, Alpine........have a cleaner output, better usable features and can still be in a reasonable price range. You want to look at some nice amps take a look at the likes of McIntosh, Zapco, older PPIs, Melberts..........they all would put the JVC to shame.
I am not trying to be mean here, I just think you might not realize that there is another world of really high end car audio gear out there that you might not be seeing past the standard brand people see in big retail stores. I have heard countless setups, some using some really cheap gear, and and some sounded ok and some did not. If you like the sound then that is the hole piont of audio but I would not go saying that because you think it sound good that that means it is top of the line gear and that it is the best. If you really want to prove its wearth let the judges beside. I know that even with my $1600 amp, single $600 12 PPI Pro sub, over $2000 Esclispe DDL head unit, $1000 in MB Quart mids, highs, and OXs, and the countless 100s of hours on the install and tweeking they still have yet to tell me that mine was the best that year. Always someone else out there with more money and knowledge.
Rick
Ok first of all I said COMMERCIAL BRANDS. So get off your high horse!
Secondly Pyramid produces plenty of great products. JVC is by far better than SONY ANY DAY.
It's funny becuase what guys like you know about brands, you lack in electronical understanding about circuits and materials.
The brands you mention are all S.S.(solid state) The key thing about SS is that none of it is much better than the rest. The circuits are all generally the same and there's not much improvement to be made by using a $3 part instead of a 30 cent part. Generally everything is jfet and mosfet based.
If you were able to say to me well these brands are all tube then that would really mean something to me but they aren't. If you really wanted to make a BIG difference in the sonic quality of car audio there'd be tube technology incorporated into it.
So yes, you are definitely missing something!
In all my research and studies in audio there is one common thing with SS equipment. Generally none of it is really any better than the rest. Loading a car with 15 amplifiers and 20 speakers is going to scream and have great clarity regardless of brand.
So what one brand woofer gives a little more thump or definition than this brand. Speakers are still made the same way they were almost 100 years ago. Just look at an Altec Woofer from the 30's. All these so called HUGE and NEW innovations were actually used almost a century ago.
The only real difference in high end audio, such as JVC, and ultra high end audio are fancy names and the use of moderately better materials. Which isn't always even the case.
Best of all I'm glad you mentioned JL audio. JL audio started off as a generic brand you could buy online for next to nothing that guys started winning competitions with. It was like magically overnight, they joined this elite group of brands that was the pinnacle of quality. Are you familiar with Orevox???
Another one of these brands. Meanwhile I could buy their woofers for $15 factory direct that would sell to you for in the $100 range a piece to start. These same woofers were winning some really big competitions here.
I'm well aware of the higher end world of audio it's just not as drastically better as most would like to believe. I mean the lower the level of harmonic distortion the more cold and sterile the sound actually is. So with that greater clarity you gain with this ultra high end audio, the more lifeless the sound. From a musicians standpoint, which I am, nothing sounds as good as a tube for the most part. Yet look how high the level of Harmonic distortion is in tube.
What's further more is if someones sound system sounds so much better than this one, it can simply because of the difference of cone materials both are using. As far as Sonics go both may be crap. I understand ALL the different genres of Hi end audio and there's something the guys into car audio don't seem to get. In comparison what they have is crap! The method for preocessing the sound and judging everything is completely different and when compared to Pro Audio for instrumentation purposes , ITS CRAP!
You can not get a finer woofer than a 15 when reproducing bass and acoustics of bass guitar. Granted the speakers response is within the range of the instrument but still. I would like to hear the sonic quality of a car stereo system with the only signal it receiving coming from a cello and a microphone.
To the car audio expert it would sound amazing, meanwhile to the musician it would sound like crap. Overprocessed and the sound changed far too much.
I love high end car audio but I think it's being taken way to far because what's being seen as quality is mainly to the ppl in this feild. Car audio generally processes the sound to be MAJORLY vibrant sounding. Rather than improve the acoustics of it. Meanwhile I know there's a thousand arguements to defen the quality of the acoustics of Higher end car audio but the bottom line is the sound is not natural. This also means in a sense it's not exactly pure. With all the crossovers and sound preocessing that goes on the purity of the sound is so compromised it's just bothersome.
TRUE ultra high end audio works with the natural acoustics of the signal it is being fed. It is not trying to change the sound but bring the natural quality of the sound more definition. When dealing with music simplicity of projection is crucial. No musician wants the sound of his/her instrument being altered. They look for something to project it's natural sound as purely as possible and not for it to be processed or manipulated in any way.
Secondly Pyramid produces plenty of great products. JVC is by far better than SONY ANY DAY.
It's funny becuase what guys like you know about brands, you lack in electronical understanding about circuits and materials.
The brands you mention are all S.S.(solid state) The key thing about SS is that none of it is much better than the rest. The circuits are all generally the same and there's not much improvement to be made by using a $3 part instead of a 30 cent part. Generally everything is jfet and mosfet based.
If you were able to say to me well these brands are all tube then that would really mean something to me but they aren't. If you really wanted to make a BIG difference in the sonic quality of car audio there'd be tube technology incorporated into it.
So yes, you are definitely missing something!
In all my research and studies in audio there is one common thing with SS equipment. Generally none of it is really any better than the rest. Loading a car with 15 amplifiers and 20 speakers is going to scream and have great clarity regardless of brand.
So what one brand woofer gives a little more thump or definition than this brand. Speakers are still made the same way they were almost 100 years ago. Just look at an Altec Woofer from the 30's. All these so called HUGE and NEW innovations were actually used almost a century ago.
The only real difference in high end audio, such as JVC, and ultra high end audio are fancy names and the use of moderately better materials. Which isn't always even the case.
Best of all I'm glad you mentioned JL audio. JL audio started off as a generic brand you could buy online for next to nothing that guys started winning competitions with. It was like magically overnight, they joined this elite group of brands that was the pinnacle of quality. Are you familiar with Orevox???
Another one of these brands. Meanwhile I could buy their woofers for $15 factory direct that would sell to you for in the $100 range a piece to start. These same woofers were winning some really big competitions here.
I'm well aware of the higher end world of audio it's just not as drastically better as most would like to believe. I mean the lower the level of harmonic distortion the more cold and sterile the sound actually is. So with that greater clarity you gain with this ultra high end audio, the more lifeless the sound. From a musicians standpoint, which I am, nothing sounds as good as a tube for the most part. Yet look how high the level of Harmonic distortion is in tube.
What's further more is if someones sound system sounds so much better than this one, it can simply because of the difference of cone materials both are using. As far as Sonics go both may be crap. I understand ALL the different genres of Hi end audio and there's something the guys into car audio don't seem to get. In comparison what they have is crap! The method for preocessing the sound and judging everything is completely different and when compared to Pro Audio for instrumentation purposes , ITS CRAP!
You can not get a finer woofer than a 15 when reproducing bass and acoustics of bass guitar. Granted the speakers response is within the range of the instrument but still. I would like to hear the sonic quality of a car stereo system with the only signal it receiving coming from a cello and a microphone.
To the car audio expert it would sound amazing, meanwhile to the musician it would sound like crap. Overprocessed and the sound changed far too much.
I love high end car audio but I think it's being taken way to far because what's being seen as quality is mainly to the ppl in this feild. Car audio generally processes the sound to be MAJORLY vibrant sounding. Rather than improve the acoustics of it. Meanwhile I know there's a thousand arguements to defen the quality of the acoustics of Higher end car audio but the bottom line is the sound is not natural. This also means in a sense it's not exactly pure. With all the crossovers and sound preocessing that goes on the purity of the sound is so compromised it's just bothersome.
TRUE ultra high end audio works with the natural acoustics of the signal it is being fed. It is not trying to change the sound but bring the natural quality of the sound more definition. When dealing with music simplicity of projection is crucial. No musician wants the sound of his/her instrument being altered. They look for something to project it's natural sound as purely as possible and not for it to be processed or manipulated in any way.
In responce.......
Ok first of all I said COMMERCIAL BRANDS. So get off your high horse!
I am on no high horse. I was simply pionting out that the brand you are saying are "high end" are not. They might be good not not truely high end.
It's funny becuase what guys like you know about brands, you lack in electronical understanding about circuits and materials.
Hmmm, funny, I sure did spend I lot of time and money in school to get that cheesy piece of paper to hang on my wall. And I guess all the electronics that I have either design, biuld and/or repaired, I guess that was just all luck then. That makes me one lucky guy. Now if that luck would only pay off in the lottery
The brands you mention are all S.S.(solid state) The key thing about SS is that none of it is much better than the rest. The circuits are all generally the same and there's not much improvement to be made by using a $3 part instead of a 30 cent part. Generally everything is jfet and mosfet based.
Here again just confirms the fact that you might not know as much as you might think about high end car audio. I would have thought that out of all the companies I named that one would have jumped out at you. That company being Melbert. Yes their gear is tube, mostly hybrid and a few are full on tube.
If you were able to say to me well these brands are all tube then that would really mean something to me but they aren't. If you really wanted to make a BIG difference in the sonic quality of car audio there'd be tube technology incorporated into it.
Again I state the fact that I did include the likes of an all tube brand. There are also a few others that use a hybrid design to get that tube sound in a smaller size and output of a transistor amp. Companys like Butler Audio do I fine job of this. I use then in another one of my cars.
In all my research and studies in audio there is one common thing with SS equipment. Generally none of it is really any better than the rest. Loading a car with 15 amplifiers and 20 speakers is going to scream and have great clarity regardless of brand.
There are more then one basic design to make a amp. Actually there are 1000s of then out there, some way better then others. To make such a general state is only misleading. If this is so true then let compare a Pyramid and a McIntosh for example, both 400 watts......or what they say is 400 watts. (Just to let you know I see, tested and worked with many many products and the very first thing I do when dealing with a new amp is open it up. You can learn alot about an amp that way). the first thing you will notice is the parts count (not always a good thing, AKA, Pass Labs amps), you will also notice the quality and thickness of the PCB board itself. Most cheap amps use thin single sided PCBs while high end stuff using thick, mill spec, double sided boards. Some even use multi boards for PS and output sections. I big thing you will see is the size of the power supply. The Pyramids I have seen use small board mounted standard type trannies while high end amp large large custom made triod tranformers. The power supply is the heart and soul of any amp, car or home audio. Click here for some good reading on power supplies from the master himself, Nelson Pass, the guy that invented class A audio amps. They are a lot of huge differences between amps, I only touched on a few as starting pionts
So what one brand woofer gives a little more thump or definition than this brand. Speakers are still made the same way they were almost 100 years ago. Just look at an Altec Woofer from the 30's. All these so called HUGE and NEW innovations were actually used almost a century ago.
Yes the same basic design is still used but with todays tech. and the use of CAD it have changed things quit a bit. Its all about linear displacement. Without getting into the math of it I will use a simple example. If you have a 15" with a few MM of Xmax and I had a 10" with a few inches the end resalt would be close....give or take. Now, in a car where you want to use your space as best as you can, for most people the 10" is looking to be a better choice. Also there are a few companies that dont biuld speakers anywhere close to the way they used too, example: Phoenic Golds Cyclone. It have no cone at all. You can read up on it here I myself have even biult something close to it and mixed resalts but man will they play LOW and flat.
Best of all I'm glad you mentioned JL audio. JL audio started off as a generic brand you could buy online
Hmmm, they might have been some cheap copies because JL Audio was started by a few guys that owned a car audio shop and was tired of all the bad sub that took huge boxes to get then to sound good so they started experimenting and biuld a few subs that worked better. JL have never sold there stuff online and still to this day advises people not to buy there product online.
Are you familiar with Orevox
Yes, but a 15" sub with an Xmas of only 3.5mm at a cost of $165, not in my book. There is probably a good reason why you can get it at only $15. In retail audio you dont make crap for money of of high end stuff, you make your living off of sell the heck out of lower end stuff. Way more markup in it.
I mean the lower the level of harmonic distortion the more cold and sterile the sound actually is. So with that greater clarity you gain with this ultra high end audio, the more lifeless the sound.
WOW, that a new one in my book. Think about that one for a second. So your saying that if I play a good recording of some live jazz on my higher end gear that is repoducing it as close it the original recording as posably that it will sound lifeless but using cheap stuff will make it sound better. That one just makes not one bit of sence. The whole object of audio is to reproduce as closely as posable the source you are playing WITHOUT added or taking away anything. <------the short version anyways!
From a musicians standpoint, which I am, nothing sounds as good as a tube for the most part. Yet look how high the level of Harmonic distortion is in tube.
I will agree that I too love tubes and yes they do tend to have a high THD. But if you would do a little bit more research into this topic you will learn about even and odd order harmonics and how the human ear precieve this. I will leave that rest up to you.
The method for preocessing the sound and judging everything is completely different and when compared to Pro Audio for instrumentation purposes , ITS CRAP!
Apples and oranges, near field, far field acoustics. Getting anything in a car to sound as good as live music is close to imposable, but we can sure do our best to try and come as close as we can.
To respond to the rest of your post the acoustics of a car make it ever hard to get anything perfect. The chalenge is to get it as close as you can. I was an still am into home audio. I like to hear live performances too. No my car audio setups are not perfect, but for cars they do sound very nice. I use as little as posable in the way of any processing. Its not just about buying the biggest $$$ gear and throughing itin the car. Its about setting everything up right, measuring it, redoing it, measuring, redoing..................then resetting it by ear and then when you think you have it reset by ear again. I will even use the same CD, bring it in my house, listen for a while, then run back out to the car and listen again and compair. I try my best to fix any nulls or peaks with either OX piont changes or box design. I think this helps keep the sounds truer in form, just MO though. Also probably the biggest overlook thing is car audio is speaker placement. An inch or two and with tweeters a MM or two, can make a world of difference in the imaging and sound stage. I wish you lived closer or I would gladly invite you over for an audition. I think you would find it pretty amazing that a good recording cam sound like that is a car. I have blindfolded people and put then in one car and then asked then to piont to the sound is coming from. If they are honist and not thinking about the fact they are still in a car, they would be pionting all over in front of them, just as in a live performence. Using some recording you can place insterments and voices quit clearly. IMO live music is 3D, some car audio is pretty much 2D but with some work and a lot of experimenting you can make it as close to the live sound as you can.
Rick
Ok first of all I said COMMERCIAL BRANDS. So get off your high horse!
I am on no high horse. I was simply pionting out that the brand you are saying are "high end" are not. They might be good not not truely high end.
It's funny becuase what guys like you know about brands, you lack in electronical understanding about circuits and materials.
Hmmm, funny, I sure did spend I lot of time and money in school to get that cheesy piece of paper to hang on my wall. And I guess all the electronics that I have either design, biuld and/or repaired, I guess that was just all luck then. That makes me one lucky guy. Now if that luck would only pay off in the lottery
The brands you mention are all S.S.(solid state) The key thing about SS is that none of it is much better than the rest. The circuits are all generally the same and there's not much improvement to be made by using a $3 part instead of a 30 cent part. Generally everything is jfet and mosfet based.
Here again just confirms the fact that you might not know as much as you might think about high end car audio. I would have thought that out of all the companies I named that one would have jumped out at you. That company being Melbert. Yes their gear is tube, mostly hybrid and a few are full on tube.
If you were able to say to me well these brands are all tube then that would really mean something to me but they aren't. If you really wanted to make a BIG difference in the sonic quality of car audio there'd be tube technology incorporated into it.
Again I state the fact that I did include the likes of an all tube brand. There are also a few others that use a hybrid design to get that tube sound in a smaller size and output of a transistor amp. Companys like Butler Audio do I fine job of this. I use then in another one of my cars.
In all my research and studies in audio there is one common thing with SS equipment. Generally none of it is really any better than the rest. Loading a car with 15 amplifiers and 20 speakers is going to scream and have great clarity regardless of brand.
There are more then one basic design to make a amp. Actually there are 1000s of then out there, some way better then others. To make such a general state is only misleading. If this is so true then let compare a Pyramid and a McIntosh for example, both 400 watts......or what they say is 400 watts. (Just to let you know I see, tested and worked with many many products and the very first thing I do when dealing with a new amp is open it up. You can learn alot about an amp that way). the first thing you will notice is the parts count (not always a good thing, AKA, Pass Labs amps), you will also notice the quality and thickness of the PCB board itself. Most cheap amps use thin single sided PCBs while high end stuff using thick, mill spec, double sided boards. Some even use multi boards for PS and output sections. I big thing you will see is the size of the power supply. The Pyramids I have seen use small board mounted standard type trannies while high end amp large large custom made triod tranformers. The power supply is the heart and soul of any amp, car or home audio. Click here for some good reading on power supplies from the master himself, Nelson Pass, the guy that invented class A audio amps. They are a lot of huge differences between amps, I only touched on a few as starting pionts
So what one brand woofer gives a little more thump or definition than this brand. Speakers are still made the same way they were almost 100 years ago. Just look at an Altec Woofer from the 30's. All these so called HUGE and NEW innovations were actually used almost a century ago.
Yes the same basic design is still used but with todays tech. and the use of CAD it have changed things quit a bit. Its all about linear displacement. Without getting into the math of it I will use a simple example. If you have a 15" with a few MM of Xmax and I had a 10" with a few inches the end resalt would be close....give or take. Now, in a car where you want to use your space as best as you can, for most people the 10" is looking to be a better choice. Also there are a few companies that dont biuld speakers anywhere close to the way they used too, example: Phoenic Golds Cyclone. It have no cone at all. You can read up on it here I myself have even biult something close to it and mixed resalts but man will they play LOW and flat.
Best of all I'm glad you mentioned JL audio. JL audio started off as a generic brand you could buy online
Hmmm, they might have been some cheap copies because JL Audio was started by a few guys that owned a car audio shop and was tired of all the bad sub that took huge boxes to get then to sound good so they started experimenting and biuld a few subs that worked better. JL have never sold there stuff online and still to this day advises people not to buy there product online.
Are you familiar with Orevox
Yes, but a 15" sub with an Xmas of only 3.5mm at a cost of $165, not in my book. There is probably a good reason why you can get it at only $15. In retail audio you dont make crap for money of of high end stuff, you make your living off of sell the heck out of lower end stuff. Way more markup in it.
I mean the lower the level of harmonic distortion the more cold and sterile the sound actually is. So with that greater clarity you gain with this ultra high end audio, the more lifeless the sound.
WOW, that a new one in my book. Think about that one for a second. So your saying that if I play a good recording of some live jazz on my higher end gear that is repoducing it as close it the original recording as posably that it will sound lifeless but using cheap stuff will make it sound better. That one just makes not one bit of sence. The whole object of audio is to reproduce as closely as posable the source you are playing WITHOUT added or taking away anything. <------the short version anyways!
From a musicians standpoint, which I am, nothing sounds as good as a tube for the most part. Yet look how high the level of Harmonic distortion is in tube.
I will agree that I too love tubes and yes they do tend to have a high THD. But if you would do a little bit more research into this topic you will learn about even and odd order harmonics and how the human ear precieve this. I will leave that rest up to you.
The method for preocessing the sound and judging everything is completely different and when compared to Pro Audio for instrumentation purposes , ITS CRAP!
Apples and oranges, near field, far field acoustics. Getting anything in a car to sound as good as live music is close to imposable, but we can sure do our best to try and come as close as we can.
To respond to the rest of your post the acoustics of a car make it ever hard to get anything perfect. The chalenge is to get it as close as you can. I was an still am into home audio. I like to hear live performances too. No my car audio setups are not perfect, but for cars they do sound very nice. I use as little as posable in the way of any processing. Its not just about buying the biggest $$$ gear and throughing itin the car. Its about setting everything up right, measuring it, redoing it, measuring, redoing..................then resetting it by ear and then when you think you have it reset by ear again. I will even use the same CD, bring it in my house, listen for a while, then run back out to the car and listen again and compair. I try my best to fix any nulls or peaks with either OX piont changes or box design. I think this helps keep the sounds truer in form, just MO though. Also probably the biggest overlook thing is car audio is speaker placement. An inch or two and with tweeters a MM or two, can make a world of difference in the imaging and sound stage. I wish you lived closer or I would gladly invite you over for an audition. I think you would find it pretty amazing that a good recording cam sound like that is a car. I have blindfolded people and put then in one car and then asked then to piont to the sound is coming from. If they are honist and not thinking about the fact they are still in a car, they would be pionting all over in front of them, just as in a live performence. Using some recording you can place insterments and voices quit clearly. IMO live music is 3D, some car audio is pretty much 2D but with some work and a lot of experimenting you can make it as close to the live sound as you can.
Rick
Essentially you may know more than me but my argument still holds ground.
Generally most SS equipment is no different than anything else.
As far as the Harmonic Distortion, SS basically has little even or odd order harmonics because of the low level of harmonic distortion. The harmonics are in fact in the harmonic distortion. When you get cleaner sound by using SS, you also reduce the level of even and odd order harmonics 100 fold because you reduce the harmonic distortion. Ask any guitarist about this that uses tube amps. 100% tube not the crap hybrid gear. SS guitar amps have had to turn to using tube emulation to stay in the game, and are still generally refered to as inferior to tube amps that are 100% tube. Why? Because the huge difference in Harmonics. To get the even and odd order harmonics with SS like you hear in tube equipment there is a lot involved and it's not cheap! It would mean a sound processor thrown into your system specifically for raising the level of the harmonics.
I can't buy JL Audio equipment online????Wha?????? Those must have been cheap copies?!! WHa??? I was Duped?????
http://www.woofersetc.com/subcat.asp?0=314
There many others selling them too. I'd even bet they didn't initially build their own speakers. I bet they ordered them to specs from a manufacturer such as Orevox.
Orevox was never a low end brand. They built drivers to the customers exact specs. There were quite a few series of their speakers that made it into Hi Fi magazines for home and car audio. They were also used to win some pretty big car audio competitions and that's why their name was actually VERY big though it only lasted maybe 6 months.
You seem to know a lot but do you know from manufactuer to store front the minimum, MINIMUM mark up in price is around 600%. This is fact in all industries. I know several Engineers that have worked in a variety of fields including electronics.
The bottom line is in car audio we are generally dealing with all SS equipment.
I understand the use of double sided military spec PCB's and triode transformers holds ground in quality but the fundamental thing is you are still dealing with the same general circuits. My cheap Pyramid amp has a toroid transformer with a double sided PCB. If you are going to say "look what I got from Pyramid for $50", not "look what I got for $200!" , there's going to be a HUGE difference in what you've seen come out of the companies production line.
I've heard infinity systems that my Pyramid system sounds better than. You probably won't include Infinity in with the ultra high end audio you are talking about, but you should. The same fundamental materials and designs are being used in by all car audio makers. If one uses better PCB's and power supplies, good. That doesn't mean they are worth the $300 more price tag they have by any means!
You are looking from the top. Not a low to mid level view of things. Yes I can see the difference in quality of the stuff you use, but essentially there is very little difference in performance.
One of the best sounding Pioneer speakers I have heard is made of clear polypropylene. Funny that Pyramid was the first brand to introduce these into the market and started the domino effect in using this marterial. I owned both and in fact the Pyramids sounded better. They were dirt cheap speakers but at the time, they came out with something different and cutting edge. Was it seen as cutting edge in Hi end car audio? Of course not, the gear snobs turned their noses up at the thought of it.
To say this brand is better because their speakers were designed using CAD is kind of pointless too. Every brand is using a CAD program to design their woofers and enclosures.
The bottom line is this. All car audio manufacturers are using the same science and the same general formats for producing their equipment. Though some is better than others due to a higher end power supply or a better quality PCB, there isn't much difference in the circuits being used and I'm surprised you haven't noticed much of the lowqer end brands improving the materials they use.
Elevtronics are REALLY cheap to produce. I can build a high end mosfet amp that clips like a tube amp for 20 cents a watt, even lower if I'm mass producing this amp.
In general all of these companies are getting the majority of their materials from the same manufacturers. When cost is so cheap these days, there isn't a whole lot of low grade materials even around.
Much of what you are paying for in something hand built is for the cost of the person building the equipment by hand. Yes there's a difference in quality of the materials used but apart from it possibly being the PCB, and obviously the power supply, every other component used I can guarantee you was relatively cheap in cost. A 65 cent cap instead of a $3 cap. and so on.
I am absolutely well aware of the improvements in sound quality the higher end brands offer, but it's not that big of a gain! Certainly not near worth the $25,000 you are going to spend on it! For that kind of money I would simply buy all scan speak or peerless Hi Fi speakers and tweeters and load my car up with those. Possibly Pro Audio speakers such as Eminence and maybe a car based SUb woffer system though. ......heck I would probably just buy Carvin rack amps and use a series of power converters and extra batteries.
I'd easily outperform any ultra high end car audio brand and do it for a LOT less money.
Generally most SS equipment is no different than anything else.
As far as the Harmonic Distortion, SS basically has little even or odd order harmonics because of the low level of harmonic distortion. The harmonics are in fact in the harmonic distortion. When you get cleaner sound by using SS, you also reduce the level of even and odd order harmonics 100 fold because you reduce the harmonic distortion. Ask any guitarist about this that uses tube amps. 100% tube not the crap hybrid gear. SS guitar amps have had to turn to using tube emulation to stay in the game, and are still generally refered to as inferior to tube amps that are 100% tube. Why? Because the huge difference in Harmonics. To get the even and odd order harmonics with SS like you hear in tube equipment there is a lot involved and it's not cheap! It would mean a sound processor thrown into your system specifically for raising the level of the harmonics.
I can't buy JL Audio equipment online????Wha?????? Those must have been cheap copies?!! WHa??? I was Duped?????
http://www.woofersetc.com/subcat.asp?0=314
There many others selling them too. I'd even bet they didn't initially build their own speakers. I bet they ordered them to specs from a manufacturer such as Orevox.
Orevox was never a low end brand. They built drivers to the customers exact specs. There were quite a few series of their speakers that made it into Hi Fi magazines for home and car audio. They were also used to win some pretty big car audio competitions and that's why their name was actually VERY big though it only lasted maybe 6 months.
You seem to know a lot but do you know from manufactuer to store front the minimum, MINIMUM mark up in price is around 600%. This is fact in all industries. I know several Engineers that have worked in a variety of fields including electronics.
The bottom line is in car audio we are generally dealing with all SS equipment.
I understand the use of double sided military spec PCB's and triode transformers holds ground in quality but the fundamental thing is you are still dealing with the same general circuits. My cheap Pyramid amp has a toroid transformer with a double sided PCB. If you are going to say "look what I got from Pyramid for $50", not "look what I got for $200!" , there's going to be a HUGE difference in what you've seen come out of the companies production line.
I've heard infinity systems that my Pyramid system sounds better than. You probably won't include Infinity in with the ultra high end audio you are talking about, but you should. The same fundamental materials and designs are being used in by all car audio makers. If one uses better PCB's and power supplies, good. That doesn't mean they are worth the $300 more price tag they have by any means!
You are looking from the top. Not a low to mid level view of things. Yes I can see the difference in quality of the stuff you use, but essentially there is very little difference in performance.
One of the best sounding Pioneer speakers I have heard is made of clear polypropylene. Funny that Pyramid was the first brand to introduce these into the market and started the domino effect in using this marterial. I owned both and in fact the Pyramids sounded better. They were dirt cheap speakers but at the time, they came out with something different and cutting edge. Was it seen as cutting edge in Hi end car audio? Of course not, the gear snobs turned their noses up at the thought of it.
To say this brand is better because their speakers were designed using CAD is kind of pointless too. Every brand is using a CAD program to design their woofers and enclosures.
The bottom line is this. All car audio manufacturers are using the same science and the same general formats for producing their equipment. Though some is better than others due to a higher end power supply or a better quality PCB, there isn't much difference in the circuits being used and I'm surprised you haven't noticed much of the lowqer end brands improving the materials they use.
Elevtronics are REALLY cheap to produce. I can build a high end mosfet amp that clips like a tube amp for 20 cents a watt, even lower if I'm mass producing this amp.
In general all of these companies are getting the majority of their materials from the same manufacturers. When cost is so cheap these days, there isn't a whole lot of low grade materials even around.
Much of what you are paying for in something hand built is for the cost of the person building the equipment by hand. Yes there's a difference in quality of the materials used but apart from it possibly being the PCB, and obviously the power supply, every other component used I can guarantee you was relatively cheap in cost. A 65 cent cap instead of a $3 cap. and so on.
I am absolutely well aware of the improvements in sound quality the higher end brands offer, but it's not that big of a gain! Certainly not near worth the $25,000 you are going to spend on it! For that kind of money I would simply buy all scan speak or peerless Hi Fi speakers and tweeters and load my car up with those. Possibly Pro Audio speakers such as Eminence and maybe a car based SUb woffer system though. ......heck I would probably just buy Carvin rack amps and use a series of power converters and extra batteries.
I'd easily outperform any ultra high end car audio brand and do it for a LOT less money.
Look your CAR AUDIO expertise I'm sure exceeds mine but I would GUARANTEE my over all audio knowledge is vastly superior to yours.
You raised plenty of good points but in the end what I'm saying holds water.
I'm more on the DIY end and I see many of the you are talking about reverse engineered by DIY guys and even the lower end brands.
It's quite obvious you refuse to accept that.
You fit the term to the letter;
GEAR SNOB
You raised plenty of good points but in the end what I'm saying holds water.
I'm more on the DIY end and I see many of the you are talking about reverse engineered by DIY guys and even the lower end brands.
It's quite obvious you refuse to accept that.
You fit the term to the letter;
GEAR SNOB
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