Puzzled

[tvrgeek]

I remain puzzled on the popularity of "full range" i.e. very ragged frequency response and limited bandwidth, speakers. I even built a couple pairs to see if I was missing some magic. No. I got terrible response curves and very limited bandwidth. Smaller ones had not enough bass to sound like music ( after modifying the driver to take the breakup) and the larger ones had enough bottom for background music, but the only top end was fake due to breakup. ( Fostek and Mark)

Is this just because some folks do not understand crossovers? Some audio rag editor talking about purity or some garbage? Sure I get getting the crossover out of the 3K critical sensitivity range, but at what cost? OK, maybe the 1W tube folks building a Klein horn for fun, but I just can't see having to listen to one.

Is there some other key I am missing? Fake dynamics due to excessive overshoot? Presence due to the pushed midrange? Please help me understand. I am not trying to beat anyone up for their preference, just understand it.

 

[tansand]

I noticed you like to spend a fair amount of time in the fullrange subforum trying to talk about it, too. Maybe find somewhere else you're less puzzled. I think that would be better for everyone.

Nobody owes you an explanation for what they like or what they do, and why would they waste their time on you?

 

[vinylkid58]

Exactly! This is borderline trolling.

jeff

 

[tvrgeek]

Excuse, me, NO!!!! I have been building speakers for near 50 years. I am interested in all aspects. I truly do not understand the fascination with "full range" speakers. I even spent the time and money to play with them myself and I still do not understand it. I was hoping for someone who can articulate it to provide some insight, not snarkey responses. If you can't help me understand, don't answer.

 

[tansand]

This isn't snark.

It looks to me that you feel like kvetching at people who are different than you today, and you've picked us out of the options available to you.

 

[Galu]

I'm still using the Wharfedale RS/12/DD drivers that I bought in the late 1960s, albeit with a tweeter aiding the top octave.

I've no idea what their response curves are like, but I'm well satisfied with their ability to involve me emotionally in my music.

Perhaps these 12" full rangers simply recreate the sound I enjoyed in my youth - warts and all! 😉

 

[xrk971]

Maybe it’s because you are looking at Fostex and MA drivers, which are not as flat bandwidth as say, ScanSpeak 10F, if that’s what you are looking for. Try a FAST/WAW fullrange crossed with a woofer below 500Hz. Even 900Hz works of its 1st order as the full range has a lot of contribution down to 500Hz. The magic comes from a coherent point source for the range 500Hz to 5kHz where imaging and soundstage comes from. This is a FAST speaker that uses the 10F and a woofer to assist in the bass. It’s one of the best sounding speakers I have heard and I’m not the only one who thinks so. It’s considered a “fullrange” speaker.

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-waw-ref-monitor.273524/page-181#post-6980907

I did 6 rounds of testing and recording a variety of fullrange drivers in a FAST setup under identical conditions and made sound clips so you can listen. I would be interested if you think these all sound bad? I build multi-way speakers too and know that fullrange has its place and benefits.


Subjective Blind Testing of Fullrange Drivers by xrk971

Round 1:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...nd-comparison-3in-5in-full-range-drivers.html

Round 2:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...d-comparison-3in-5in-drivers-round-2-a-2.html

Round 3:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ind-comparison-2in-4in-drivers-round-3-a.html

Round 4:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ind-comparison-2in-4in-drivers-round-4-a.html

Round 5:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...d-comparison-2in-3-5in-drivers-round-5-a.html

Round 6:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-blind-abx-test-enabled-ff85wk-round-6-a.html

 

[cracked case]

I've seen some frequency response graphs that show a huge hump around 2,000 Hz, after making some full range speakers I can say this is unpleasant to me, however a contour network can cure this completely, and with 2x four inch drivers working in tandem ( with a 1.5 uf cap across the lower one ), and a 100 Hz hump in the bass, give a decent sound. An inverted 6.5 inch driver with boost to the treble ( a special interconnect ) can also give a decent full range sound. I can only presume that more expensive ( over £ 20 a pair ) drivers could only sound better. My listening room is only around an 8 foot cube however.

 

[silverprout]

If you can't help me understand, don't answer.

You shoud investigate on the HTRF IMHO.

The full bandwidth is not always required in the real life situations, do you know why the nomad headphones are warm and bass heavy? because of the contractions of the stapedian muscles induced by the walking situation that reduce the ampliude of the ossicular chain movement therefore the reduce the LF content.

 

[planet10]

Experiences like this fellows (from an FH Mk3 thread):

Everything is just so present and the vocal textures are incredibly rich. Harmonies I've heard many times are just so much easier to distinguish who is singing what, and the clarity makes complicated recordings a joy to listen to while reveling in the rich textures. I'm not sure if what I am describing is attributed to a "flat response" or what, but It's good. Additionally, I was shocked at the imaging, much better than I expected!

dave

 

[MarcelvdG]

Exactly! This is borderline trolling.

jeff

Whether it is meant as trolling or not, it is tvrgeek's style of asking questions: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...r-audio-volume-13.308860/page-53#post-6400070

 

[silverprout]

Would it be so hard to say that the modifcation of the frequency response of the restitution is hiding some détails and uncovers some others and it is joyfull game, playing is irrational and recreationnal ?
Instead of qualify someone as a troll or something degrading ?

 

[AllenB]

Does not one driver which is less flat, sometimes sound better than one that is more flat?

 

[tmuikku]

Fullrange speaker is easy and cheap to build which is great appeal for many seeking to DIY speakers, and can sound quite good despite not so perfect measurements. Fullrange systems are often SPL limited, very small sweetspot and other issues with directivity, even if EQ:d to any prefered listening axis response. This might be fine for many people and especially if hearing loss has creeped in and limited the hearing bandwidth as well.

If one really starts to design speakers without limiting the design space before hand, very good sound as the only goal, there is no way fullrange speaker would come on top simply by reasoning from wavelength with ideal point source (fullrange driver), without even touching electro-mechanical reality, or just by electro-mechanical reality without thinking by wavelength. Simply, the longest and shortest wavelength of audible spectrum really require quite different systems for optimal playback. Even multi-way speakers struggle (with all kinds of compromises) but at least are capable of enough SPL and full bandwidth, the basics. That said, we don't really need too wide midrange bandwidth to enjoy music, to recognize the song 🙂 On the other hand even not so perfect multi-way speaker capable of nice comfortably loud dynamic full bandwidth sound beats anything smaller, SPL capability and bandwidth make a lot to "realism".

 

[silverprout]

Does not one driver which is less flat, sometimes sound better than one that is more flat?

Why so much mistery when there is no better or no bader, the flatness is strongly conditioning the tonal equilibrium, your remark is concernig the time domain and more especially the ringings that some people find them at their tastes (for a short period perhaps ?)

 

[AllenB]

Yes, I'm saying that you shouldn't judge on flatness. If that's important to you then you can always equalise. There is more to a fullrange driver than that.

You suggest I was talking about the time domain, is that the same as the response?

 

[silverprout]

The ringing within time will result as some additional acoustic energy which will cannot be seen in a simple FR chart.

 

[midrange]

There are those of us who find a full range speaker a more enjoyable listen. And bizarrely I am not alone in finding them more realistic with small ensembles, li,e jazz, or chamber music. I have never agonised why this is, I just accept it.

 

[tmuikku]

Probably narrowing directivity, which reduces early reflections. Might be something else as well, like being point source which again perhaps has merit with early reflections, perhaps no "integration" issues. Multi-way speakers can somewhat optimize directivity with waveguide(s) and other means depending on frequency, controlled directivity, further bettering the reflections and make the sweet spot more comfortable size. Also fullrange drivers can use waveguide but it is the same compromise as before as it is all tied to wavelength and physical size of objects. A small transducer and waveguide for good directivity up to >10kHz needs <2" throat/transducer and it just doesn't have any bass having diminishing displacement as wavelength increases to maintain SPL. Increase the size of transducer to get more bass but now the high treble is compromized being smaller than the transducer and beam / radiate uncontrolled. Good bandwidth of single driver just slides up or down with transducer size but stays about the same. Optimal bandwidth being around about the diameter of the transducer, higher than this and beaming results, lower than this and more displacement is needed. Outside this optimal bandwidth of single driver the resonse is more or less a compromize, even two way speakers barely make it for the full audible bandwidth and benefit third way as subwoofers. For example we usually listen in a room and room sized wavelenghts require equal size solution to take the situation in control, like multisub system. Now we arrive to a 3 way system from simple reasoning: one solution for bigger than room wavelengths, one for the high 1" treble and one way between, for about the human (and loudspeaker) sized mid range.

 

[Scottmoose]

Fullrange speaker is easy and cheap to build

Not necessarily they aren't, as evidenced by the various companies producing expensive wideband driver units and/or those producing expensive speakers using said.

If one really starts to design speakers without limiting the design space before hand, very good sound as the only goal, there is no way fullrange speaker would come on top

Again, not necessarily, as evidenced by the people who out of deliberate choice and preference buy / build and use single-driver based systems, some cheap, some extremely expensive.

I stress at this point that I am neither advocating nor criticising single-driver / wideband based loudspeakers. I design both single-driver & multiway speakers, either for myself or predominantly others, so I have no particular bias in either direction. Our friend the OP is simply trying to provoke reactions, as he is well aware that just because he doesn't like something or holds a particular belief, his preference or opinion is just that rather than universally applicable fact. Speaking generally, it's a very old debate, one that has regularly been repeated for decades, and there is little or nothing original left to say on the matter.