Quite absurd! Launch your alarm clock in the air, does it not continue to vibrate? It does vibrate because some force inner its structure make it vibrate AND because the air surrounding the clock doesn't damp it. On the contrary, if it does exchange force with a surrounding material, then you get obligatory a dampening effect because part of the vibration's power is transmitted to this surround; if part of this power is transmitted, a lower part of power is reflected: this IS a dampening effect. Please study a bit waves propagation laws!inertial said:
Re: Solution?
😉
Increasing mass does damp; increasing rigidity displace foundamental resonance frequency higher in the spectra; therefore it need more power to vibrate, this is good. However you'll never get the same dampening effect as if your speaker was firmly attached to the stiff structure of a house (with a good cone or three in isostatic placement). I do see only one component needing to be isolated from its surrounding: the turntable, but only arm and plate, not the motor.BERENO said:
😉
Re: Re: Solution?
or are you saying that you should strap/bolt the enclosure to the house foundation. I know that I am being excessive, but I am trying to paint a picture so I can understand these ideas better. Food for thought i guess
ok, so what if you filled a garbage can full of sandbags and placed your speaker on top of the sandbags, and then proceeded to strap the enclosure down to the handles on the garbage can very tightly with the elastic band that has a very low resonance... would that work better? you could even suspend the garbage can from the ceiling if you wanted 😀crazyhub said:
or are you saying that you should strap/bolt the enclosure to the house foundation. I know that I am being excessive, but I am trying to paint a picture so I can understand these ideas better. Food for thought i guess
BERENO,
Purchase three steel cones per speaker (even affordable ones) and three elastical/soft pads of whatever quality/price you want.
Listen and compare dynamics, intelligibility, soundstages and on (you'll find that all the listening criterions will be affected on the same manner).
Then add mass on the top of each speaker.
Listen and compare.
Except if your floor is very thin and therefore resonating, I'm sure about these tests results.
Be sure that the result will be identical whatever complexity of a system you will ending with: soft vs stiff, this is the century fight, haha.😉
Purchase three steel cones per speaker (even affordable ones) and three elastical/soft pads of whatever quality/price you want.
Listen and compare dynamics, intelligibility, soundstages and on (you'll find that all the listening criterions will be affected on the same manner).
Then add mass on the top of each speaker.
Listen and compare.
Except if your floor is very thin and therefore resonating, I'm sure about these tests results.
Be sure that the result will be identical whatever complexity of a system you will ending with: soft vs stiff, this is the century fight, haha.😉
for clarification, are you saying that "dynamics, intelligibility, soundstages and on" will all improve/perform better in a speaker with spikes? additionally are you saying that spikes perform even beter with added mass to the enclosure? honest curiosity
i think from now on I will build a speaker with an extra compartment built in that I can fill with sand to make the cabinets heavier, haha
i think from now on I will build a speaker with an extra compartment built in that I can fill with sand to make the cabinets heavier, haha
I say that a speaker with spikes/cone will allways perform better than a speaker standing on soft/elastical material, unless it stays on a resonant floor. It will allways perform better with added mass. A built-in compartment will be a good thing; a better thing would be all the walls treated in this way.BERENO said:
😉
Howdy all, Since a lot of audiophile speakers these days weigh as much as Amy Wineglass's medicine chest, might I suggest heavy duty industrial casters as an appropriate interface between your speakers and the floor? Spikes are just more silliness from the fertile imaginations of our fine audio marketeers!
Guy's NOBODY has bothered to answer Cyberspiders legitimate question.
Hi Spider! are those concrete breeze blocks or are they somewhat stronger and heavier??
Whatever they are I think the will be solid enough not to move with the speaker diaphram, so the question is what sort of floor are the sitting on?? If carpet just protect the carpet with some carpet offcuts SAME for polished wooden flooring however using a second large slab will not hurt; it may not do anything spectacular but it won't do anything bad.
I would use some scrap MDF of ply and epoxy it to the top of the pillar, so that if you want need to secure the speakers with clamps or screws it will be easier.
Then you can think of a paint job for the stands, just remember to have the tweeter aproximately at ear height.
By the way I use spikes on carpet and a terratzo slab protected by a bit of old carpet when I move to polished floorboards
Hi Spider! are those concrete breeze blocks or are they somewhat stronger and heavier??
Whatever they are I think the will be solid enough not to move with the speaker diaphram, so the question is what sort of floor are the sitting on?? If carpet just protect the carpet with some carpet offcuts SAME for polished wooden flooring however using a second large slab will not hurt; it may not do anything spectacular but it won't do anything bad.
I would use some scrap MDF of ply and epoxy it to the top of the pillar, so that if you want need to secure the speakers with clamps or screws it will be easier.
Then you can think of a paint job for the stands, just remember to have the tweeter aproximately at ear height.
By the way I use spikes on carpet and a terratzo slab protected by a bit of old carpet when I move to polished floorboards
True, sorry to go OT,
I think that so far we have come to "generally" agree that some spikes on the concrete stands will do nicely. Also put the spikes on the outer edges of the cabinet, and not in the middle because that is where the most vibrations occur. This might mean that you need to add a plate at the top of your stands so that you can place the cabinets on them. Once again, use some scrap carpet or felt pads between the stands and the floor. Hope this helps 🙂
crazyhub said:
No, you are wrong and frankly annoing also.
The book definition is " a souspended body(below) out of band can't vibrate in band". Quite simple.
Instead to launch " atweeter",take a washing machine. It is more worse than anything woofer. Swap the internal souspension with
your spikes and power ON ! Do you insist again?
Repeat the experiment with a razor or what you want.
Hang up with 1 meter of elastic and learn
It was clear to me you do not have direct real experienced with subsonical decoupling, you talk only about your fantasy.
I have previously said: take 3 appropriate steel springs and swap your spikes ( 2 USD,can you afford? ) below your speakers. Judge yourself then and save us from your exotic wrong theorias.
I hope a moderator take provedements to ensure the minimal level of scientific rigour is preserved in this forum. 😡
inertial said:
I can see your point, but are you assuming that the speaker will have a substantial mass to it? For example, when a speaker is firmly secured to a solid, immobile object such as a house foundation, I would tend to believe that it would be less prone to move than anything suspended, unless the suspended object had a considerable mass. I would think that the inertial effect of the woofer would have a greater effect on the speaker when it has less mass or is not secured to something with a high mass, and vice verse...
You mention " book definition" is there a book that you quoted that from, because I think I would find it an interesting read (honestly). You also mention reference to "Labs" that you have worked in(with), and I am assuming they have conducted studies on such a topic. Can you provide links to any written documents regarding their or some other lab's findings? I am not referring to the article that you previously posted, but rather a scientific document. I am honestly curious, and I would like to read up on such a topic. 🙂 Once again, I am not trying to argue, but show that I am curious on such a topic.
Accuracy needed here!inertial said:
What your "out of band suspended body" do is to avoid the body to resonate on its foundamental resonance frequency YES!!!
BUT ONLY if the energy comes from outsides the body!!! NOT if the energy comes from inside the body!!!
And the suspension of a washing machine is regulated on its foundamental resonance frequency and connected to a mass which does DAMP the vibrations; this suspension does/can in no way avoid or suppress the resonance of the machine.
Last but not least: I will never stop to point out your wrong statements. It's my right and one of the foundations of a forum, man.
Hi Bereno,
Now I can't satisfay your genuine curiosity, I'm going out with friends.
Tomorrow I can replay but only if this thread become more educated.
Cheers,
Paolo
Now I can't satisfay your genuine curiosity, I'm going out with friends.
Tomorrow I can replay but only if this thread become more educated.
Cheers,
Paolo
inertial said:
I'll try most things once 🙂
Would (engine) valve springs be the right type of spring to try?
quickshift said:
Based on Inertial's previous posts Im thinking that he is referring to a very supple spring that would have a very low resonant frequency... I think valve springs are going to be a bit too stiff, but you can always experiment with different types of springs. Can you let us know what you find??
BERENO said:
Ah, OK - The only springs I have are valve springs - but if I can find some suitable ones which aren't too expensive, I'll have a go.
Would magnetically suspending the speaker above the floor be an option? I made a kind of hovering platform using really strong circular magnets with holes in threaded onto aluminium bolts as an experiment and haven't found anything sensible to do with it yet.
Well that would eliminate all but the subsonic resonances... I just dont know how thatwould interfere with the speaker magnets because they must be very strong in order to hold up a speaker cabinet... try it out and see!
Hi Quickshift, I know this is off thread ( sorry Cyber spyder ) but that magnetically suspended platform is very useful if yiu happen to own an analogue transcription devive A TURNTABLE!!
I've been thinking of trying that myself
I've been thinking of trying that myself
crazyhub said:Accuracy needed here!
What your "out of band suspended body" do is to avoid the body to resonate on its foundamental resonance frequency YES!!!
BUT ONLY if the energy comes from outsides the body!!! NOT if the energy comes from inside the body!!!
And the suspension of a washing machine is regulated on its foundamental resonance frequency and connected to a mass which does DAMP the vibrations; this suspension does/can in no way avoid or suppress the resonance of the machine.
Last but not least: I will never stop to point out your wrong statements. It's my right and one of the foundations of a forum, man.
The suspensions of the washing machine combined with the mass
of the souspended stuff act as a low pass filter to avoid shacking your floor.
Return to the "rest"
You crazyhub talk about my wrong stataments?
You crazyhub that say " the speaker firmly attached to a solid floor?
Are you joking?
This is unscientific.
For the last time:
The speaker work in dynamic regime 20-20K , not static!
To be immovable mean absence of relative movements ( ie vibrations) IN BAND of work .
A spiked loudspeaker can have a FR normally 1-4khz.
It means that the floor oppose his elastic reactions to the speaker's movements for frequencies below FR where they are integrally transferred INCREASING the total vibrational capability ( amplitude and spectra) ie loosing the relative immobility and decreasing the
dinamycal rigidity of the system.
One more the propries modes of the spikes ADD to those intrinsecal of the speaker .
Forget now you are shaking the floor, the other speaker, and your
delicate tube electroincs and source.
To be complete, the "solid floor" is a poor dynamically rigidity element: a flat panel have infinite numbers of vibrational modes!
riassume:
It show that "the action" in the speaker is equal to the reaction
(filtered LP at FR) from the floor.
It show thus that under equal conditions of internal sollecitation ( the woofer) the speaker subsonically decoupled ( tend to the inertial bordering) MINIMIZE all his vibrations above FR,
while the spiked speaker MAXIMIZE all his vibrations up to FR.
Even decoupled the speaker have his ( minimal excited) modes of vibrations because it has various intenal parts ie one make the reaction to the others.
In order to obtain the max performance is indicated to increase the stiffness and the damping of the box with structural redesign and appropriate materials .
I'm tyred to bla bla bla in circle when the unique resolutive proof
is swap your spikes with 3+3 steel springs(2 usd from your ironmonger shop) and touch with your hand below and after.
5 minutes.It is a macroscopic difference.
I have employed spikes from 1990 to 1998, me poor!
Then the others forumers'll make his conclusions.
I declare I have not anything VS crazyhub, I hope he become
more "open" and friendly.
Paolo
- Status
- Not open for further replies.