Value is what the user puts on it. If you think some brand is overpriced, buy another as it is not of value to you.
Often miss-understood, there is true state of the art, usually still in labs or too expensive to manufacture. State of the art may change daily, and for sure faster than patents. I came up with "state of the shelf" meaning for what is available to buy today, what is the highest performing one can get for a reasonable cost. Not a sexy enough term for the advertisers though.
Cab, some have suggested the Stark modules are higher performing. Proprietary though. All of the comments from the professionals who design end products I have read suggest the I/O is more significant than the crop of current modules. Hypex/Purify/Pascal. I am excluding ICE as every one I ever hear was horrible to my ears. We may be at a stage where modules are kind of like OP-Amps. What you do with them matters more than the chip. DACs seem to be at that level.
Often miss-understood, there is true state of the art, usually still in labs or too expensive to manufacture. State of the art may change daily, and for sure faster than patents. I came up with "state of the shelf" meaning for what is available to buy today, what is the highest performing one can get for a reasonable cost. Not a sexy enough term for the advertisers though.
Cab, some have suggested the Stark modules are higher performing. Proprietary though. All of the comments from the professionals who design end products I have read suggest the I/O is more significant than the crop of current modules. Hypex/Purify/Pascal. I am excluding ICE as every one I ever hear was horrible to my ears. We may be at a stage where modules are kind of like OP-Amps. What you do with them matters more than the chip. DACs seem to be at that level.
Yeah, and a Ferrari and a Yugo are both automobiles that are basically the same except for some small practical changes. If they are so small why didn't you invent the purifi technology and market it? It's the little things sometimes that make all the difference.
Indeed, "value" is a subjective opinion.
Of course when I refer to Purifi as "state of the art class d" is should be obvious I am referring to what is available in the marketplace.
I haven't seen a complete set of measurements from the Stark modules but from what I have seen they measure comparably with the Purifi modules. Whether their performance in total, i.e., clipping behavior, etc., is in Purifi's league or not is not something I have seen addressed.
Once these class d amps reach a certain level of performance, then surely the input stages are what will differentiate products. We are seeing that now with vendors offering their own input boards, with replaceable opamps, etc. This started with ncore and continues now with VTV and others offering their own input boards, a selection of opamps, etc.
Looking at the literature, it would suggest Pascal is designed for the distribution segment, not the high fidelity market. So their design decision may be more advantageous to that market. But again, how you use it may matter more. I had a Berhringer, slightly modified, as a sub amp and it excelled (proprietary class D,) but as a main amplifier, it would have been terrible. It's intended market was a dirt cheap semi-pro PA amp. It did that quite well.
Just as the for mentioned cars are designed for different markets. Each has advantages to each. I would not want to drive a Ferrari in the snow, nor would I want to take a Ugo on the track. Besides, I have a Stag anyway.
Just as the for mentioned cars are designed for different markets. Each has advantages to each. I would not want to drive a Ferrari in the snow, nor would I want to take a Ugo on the track. Besides, I have a Stag anyway.
When people talk about the differences between most of these high power class D amps the differences are very minor and certainly not comparable to vehicles of different types. Literally the only appreciable difference between the purifi and standard ncore is an additional integrator that applies a bit more feedback within the audible band. This further lowers noise and distortion.
The major difference between standard ucd and ncore is the addition of an integrator to apply more feedback within the audible band.
With or without the integrators you've got a reasonably quiet amplifier with loads of power and load invariance. It's far more like the ucd is a basic Tesla, the ncore has cruise control with lane assist and then the purifi full autonomous driving. All the cars have the same basic performance but some offer a more refined experience.
Adding integrators to improve linearity is nothing new it's how ADCs/DACs get their crazy performance and they've been doing it for decades.
Take your basic IRS20957 amp for $30 on eBay/AliExpress add 2-3 additional opamps and you've basically got a purifi. So long as the basics are actually met like a decently linear output inductor but those are readily available from various places.
I like value for money so don't consider the purifi to be anything close to that. Neither did I consider ncore to be that. I haven't bought either. When China could theoretically pump out a purifi for $40 I'd consider a purifi module to be worth about $100 direct from Bruno and the rest of the guys. Not close to the $400 that they charge.
Either way that was off topic. From what I've seen Purifi modules outperform Pascal significantly with regards to most metrics. At least the last time I looked.
The major difference between standard ucd and ncore is the addition of an integrator to apply more feedback within the audible band.
With or without the integrators you've got a reasonably quiet amplifier with loads of power and load invariance. It's far more like the ucd is a basic Tesla, the ncore has cruise control with lane assist and then the purifi full autonomous driving. All the cars have the same basic performance but some offer a more refined experience.
Adding integrators to improve linearity is nothing new it's how ADCs/DACs get their crazy performance and they've been doing it for decades.
Take your basic IRS20957 amp for $30 on eBay/AliExpress add 2-3 additional opamps and you've basically got a purifi. So long as the basics are actually met like a decently linear output inductor but those are readily available from various places.
I like value for money so don't consider the purifi to be anything close to that. Neither did I consider ncore to be that. I haven't bought either. When China could theoretically pump out a purifi for $40 I'd consider a purifi module to be worth about $100 direct from Bruno and the rest of the guys. Not close to the $400 that they charge.
Either way that was off topic. From what I've seen Purifi modules outperform Pascal significantly with regards to most metrics. At least the last time I looked.
Sure, it's so simply and easy, anyone can do it. Funny then that no one else had done this then until Bruno. And his mathematical solution developed by Bruno is hardly simple.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The cost performance ratio of the Purifi product is in my opinion a market leader. You can pay many times the price and not get the performance. To each his own.
You can pay less and get enough performance for any ear on the planet...you're defending a simple marketing scheme that transformed a very cheap product to manufacture into a very expensive on the shelf , impossible or very unlikely to be serviced and short lived one, unlike an expensive to manufacture yet still very serviceable, 20 times more reliable and long lived class ab product . I repeat myself because it looks some are too military for my taste .The price for the first 42 years old japanese amp was equivalent to 1700 dollars in today's money.For that time it was sci-fi! These are real measurements taken 42 years ago on a japanese amplifiers(both made in 1980) and I truly doubt there's a single human being able to distinguish its distortions :
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You still want to go class D no matter the price?Go all the way then! Bob Katz and Abbey Road will agree with this choice.
https://vintageking.com/barefoot-sound-micromain-27-gen2-pair
https://barefootsound.com/minimain12/
https://vintageking.com/barefoot-sound-micromain-27-gen2-pair
https://barefootsound.com/minimain12/
Yes, we have heard your opinion several times. Unfortunately, repetition and off topic posts don't do much more than annoy. Some people don't want to live in the past- they like the efficiency, small form factor, and outstanding performance of the current state of the art. Get over it.
Micromain near field monitors , which are considered the best monitors for recording for a decade now are made with Bruno Putzey class D modules...So I already made the best modern and expensive recommendation...You don't need to express your envy outloud.You can suffer in sillence and become a wise man !
I did listen to Barefoot's MM27 7 years ago and in the same recording studio, which is the most analogue and expensive recording studio in Eastern Europe i had the opportunity to listen in parallel two 1956 Tannoy red 15 vintage cabinets made by a subsidiary of Siemens then we were able to measure both the Tannoy red 15 driven by a very low thd class ab amp and Barefoot speakers and they measured almost identically frequency wise , yet i understood really quick why a pair of 70 years old speakers driven with about 20...30watts of amplification sells just by themselves for about 80% of the total cost of 2014 made 800watts active class D hypex driven monitors...Maybe one day you'll get it too!
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You make some good point, one thing I personally think is a selling point on the purify is just the technology aspect for integrator looking at using modern engineering designs, things like I2C status control, MCU clipping detector (with the ability status encoded as I2C commands), best thermal specifications by far at 400 Watts.. the THD specs are the things to make it sell, but you get so much more than lower THD.
As I said previously, I have nothing against class d or microcontroller technology, I used to design medical and industrial cutting lasers controllers 13 years ago, I took part in the design of a first model of digitally tunned antiresonance system amplifier for some very expensive commercial electrostatic headphones, although personally i only worked on the analog side ...i'm not exactly "your grandpa", but i think that trying to speculate the "new thing" that's clearly much cheaper to make in order to ask for some insane prices it's not gonna work for 99.99% of the population...If I'd be a professional audio mastering guy I'd definitely consider a Barefoot speaker if it's found in my pocket range, but that is a complete professional plug&play solution, you don't pay 10...20 000 dollars for a diy job. .Being a diy guy is a completely different bussiness and here we are on diy audio not on Sound on Sound or 6moons ...Diyaudio is looking more at improving around our world by hacking into things, eventually allowing for cheap mods or small modifications found in usual people's range , while absolute integration of technology is the absolute opposite, like having a modern smartphone that's draining the battery in a few hours, allowing for too many recharching cycles in just two..three years , but not giving you the possibility to change it unless you're going to dismantle the phone into bits...Imagine the diy audio community without LtSpice or Multisim, having to buy Orcad or Cadence instead to get some basic simulation tools...
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I've heard Gato Audio many times, with some of the best drivers from SB and SS.... nothing sticks out as bad from the Pascal modules in these amplifiers.
But hey... I did not hear much of a difference between DanDagostino mono blocks and a Behringer EP4000 on a set of Magico Q7 - so maybe my experiences are worth less 😉😀
Agreed. I am happy with my Pascal amps, do not have the budget for Purifi...
I might purchase some Jensen line level transformers before I possibly start considering upgradeing my amplifier.
That's a pretty sweeping statement. There are a lot of quality manufacturers that can do quite a bit with the base class D modules. Modifying the front end input stage, for example. I'm not talking about the little buffers that are basically an opamp on a PCB, that are used to color the sound. I've seen hybrid designs that remove the stock onboard pre gain stage of the class D module, and replace it with a properly engineered Class A input stage producing 14dB of gain that then passes off to an Hypex nc1200 module which provides an addition 12 dB of gain. Total combined gain of 26dB as Hybrid Class A/Class D amp)
With THD+N of 0.0006% 200W RMS 20-20khz. With damping factors north of 500, and IMD numbers averaging--120dB and idle noise, (no music playing) down to -150dB. I personally have a pair of Mola Mola Kaluga Mono Bloc's that measure and sound better than my McIntosh MAC7200. They are very reliable, built like tanks and designed to last for very long time. I think everyone is entitled to their opinion as you certainly are, but it's not really fair to make a blanket statement about Class D Amps saying they all break down and underform compared to class A/B is not true at all, and potentially misleading. The fact is, modern class D amps made by a reputable company can measure and sound just as good, or better in some cases, than many class A/B and class A amps on the market today. Therefore justifying their high price tags as well. Runnining an electronics company is a very expensive affair. The only one that really makes money in audio are the dealers . Paul McGowan at OS audio once said, "if n.v you want to have a million dollars in the audio business after a year of operating, start the year with 2 million, and spend only one." Dealers like Upscale Audio, and Audio Advisor are the ones making the real markup profits.
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It's beyond ridiculous to call this a hybrid. Especially when real classA/classD hybrid amplifiers exist.
As of the best class D competing against the best non switching amps... this perhaps works for some listeners, by no means all.
For me, the significant amount of RF radiated by speaker cables driven from class D amps is a real concern avoided only in active speakers.
I paid about 850 euros for my 4 channel amp back then, including shipping and taxes, there is some slight benefit to modding the input stage, but I have other issues in my otherwise quite good signal chain that needs to be taken care of first. There is a slight hiss coming from the speakers, it's not the amplifiers fault, biggest issue is noise seeping into ground and signal from my PC.
https://www.img-stageline.com/products/pa-systems/pa-amplifiers/digital-pa-amplifiers/sta-2000d/
Right now I'm going to be flat broke for the foreseeable future, but next in line will be either line level transformers or a new DSP solution with digital inputs.