Kenji,
I'm not talking absolutes here. I asked if you could rearrange it so the power supply pcb sat square, and the wires were trimmed and accurately dimensioned for neatness. That's all.
See if you can achieve this with simple extensions of the wire; cut, remove 5mm of insulation on each end, press together, solder carefully, then place heatshrink over the join to insulate again. Attach the power supply pcb with epoxy or liquid nails, keep each rail wire as short as possible, and make it look really neat. Double check that star earth goes to each module, to the speaker cold (black) terminals, to center taps on the trafos, and via the lumpy diode/resistor wire to chassis. Be VERY sure that the enamelled wires from the trafo are properly, thoroughly scrapped and terminated. Make sure it's all neat, and you have a chance to really fault find.
This is very difficult. The last thing I want you to do is give up. Remember, you are casting aspersions on the amp, my amp, my design, and I want it to work properly, and I don't want you unhappy, broadcasting to all and sundry the amp is no good when it might be something simple like layout and wiring technique.
I remind you that it's run beautifully by your assessment in the past. It will do so again. These are outstanding amplifiers, and somewhere, somehow, things are just not right in the system.
Incidentally, bubbles on the pcb tracks are simply overenthusiastic solder tinning by the manufacturer before the silkscreen is applied. It's not delamination, and it won't affect the sound, durability or audio cachet. Is this one more little snipe, based on your assessment of something you are not yet experienced in? Please knock it off, Kenji, this is silly.
Now, let me get back to work. Valleys to cross, mountains to climb!
Hugh
I'm not talking absolutes here. I asked if you could rearrange it so the power supply pcb sat square, and the wires were trimmed and accurately dimensioned for neatness. That's all.
See if you can achieve this with simple extensions of the wire; cut, remove 5mm of insulation on each end, press together, solder carefully, then place heatshrink over the join to insulate again. Attach the power supply pcb with epoxy or liquid nails, keep each rail wire as short as possible, and make it look really neat. Double check that star earth goes to each module, to the speaker cold (black) terminals, to center taps on the trafos, and via the lumpy diode/resistor wire to chassis. Be VERY sure that the enamelled wires from the trafo are properly, thoroughly scrapped and terminated. Make sure it's all neat, and you have a chance to really fault find.
This is very difficult. The last thing I want you to do is give up. Remember, you are casting aspersions on the amp, my amp, my design, and I want it to work properly, and I don't want you unhappy, broadcasting to all and sundry the amp is no good when it might be something simple like layout and wiring technique.
I remind you that it's run beautifully by your assessment in the past. It will do so again. These are outstanding amplifiers, and somewhere, somehow, things are just not right in the system.
Incidentally, bubbles on the pcb tracks are simply overenthusiastic solder tinning by the manufacturer before the silkscreen is applied. It's not delamination, and it won't affect the sound, durability or audio cachet. Is this one more little snipe, based on your assessment of something you are not yet experienced in? Please knock it off, Kenji, this is silly.
Now, let me get back to work. Valleys to cross, mountains to climb!
Hugh
Dear Hugh...i do not want to be insolent, unrespectfull
as you are my teacher..my leader...but i think it will be a very good idea to suggest him to substitute the black gates by traditional, simple, common capacitors.
Why?
We know black gates variates performance during weeks of burn in, as Danny, from Croatia, has informed (and others too).... while he was removing his last hairs from the bald head (hairs cutted short because he wants this way) because of desperation.
So.... if this variates, changing performance..and Professor is perceiving changes in performance..that loss of bass (the black gates does that while burning in as i could noticed by informations received).... it will be a good idea to substitute into one channel.
This way.... Mr. Professor will be calm waiting the burn in process, knowing the Black gates does that...the standard performance will be re stablished into one channel and all stuff will finish.
I do not use Black gates because of those things...i cannot wait them burn in..i have no patience and no "bells" to be waiting alike a monk... i am much more immediatist than other folks.
regards,
Carlos
as you are my teacher..my leader...but i think it will be a very good idea to suggest him to substitute the black gates by traditional, simple, common capacitors.
Why?
We know black gates variates performance during weeks of burn in, as Danny, from Croatia, has informed (and others too).... while he was removing his last hairs from the bald head (hairs cutted short because he wants this way) because of desperation.
So.... if this variates, changing performance..and Professor is perceiving changes in performance..that loss of bass (the black gates does that while burning in as i could noticed by informations received).... it will be a good idea to substitute into one channel.
This way.... Mr. Professor will be calm waiting the burn in process, knowing the Black gates does that...the standard performance will be re stablished into one channel and all stuff will finish.
I do not use Black gates because of those things...i cannot wait them burn in..i have no patience and no "bells" to be waiting alike a monk... i am much more immediatist than other folks.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
I told folks that my friends had not perceived correctly the presence or absence
of black gates.
But Professor Smith, having two boards, one with black gates and the other without black gates..for sure he will not be fooled, as comparison will be easy...have only to put one speaker above the other and to switch from one channel to the other or to twist ballance control from one side to the other.
Maybe this way this novel will finish...he will decide if will be waiting the black gates channel to burn in or not.
Carlos
....................................................................................................
Your hundreds of customers trust you..so...if you say they must wait the burn in process, they will believe and will wait with patience knowing you are a serious man...but this one, with all respect dedicated to Mr. Professor, seems that does not trust even into his own shadows... this way you gonna have problems with such kind of character/personality.
of black gates.
But Professor Smith, having two boards, one with black gates and the other without black gates..for sure he will not be fooled, as comparison will be easy...have only to put one speaker above the other and to switch from one channel to the other or to twist ballance control from one side to the other.
Maybe this way this novel will finish...he will decide if will be waiting the black gates channel to burn in or not.
Carlos
....................................................................................................
Your hundreds of customers trust you..so...if you say they must wait the burn in process, they will believe and will wait with patience knowing you are a serious man...but this one, with all respect dedicated to Mr. Professor, seems that does not trust even into his own shadows... this way you gonna have problems with such kind of character/personality.
Attachments
tinitus said:
I had been communicating with Prof via PM a week ago and the rail voltages were fine at 38V. The bias at 75mV and offset at 45mV are a tad high but not an issue IMO (I've built the AKSA 55, 55N+, 55N, 55N+ mongrel). As far as I was concerned it seemed working correctly and as it sounded good initially, only needed time. I did suggest he change C4 to some other good quality cap as that would have confirmed if it was the burn in phenomenon once and for all.
What hasn't been mentioned is his transformers do have an occasional buzz plus there is a slight hum at the speaker. To that I showed him pics of a couple of layouts and suggested signal and speaker wiring at the back with the amp modules, power supply and transformers at the front which would achieve short DC wires from the power supply to the amp modules and also no AC or DC near the signal wiring. I'm sure that would have solved any hums and any remainder could have been reduced by a simple 10R reverse diode network at the attachment of the power ground to the mains ground on the chassis. I'm still not sure it his amp has a floating power ground from the power supply or it's connected to the mains ground as I couldn't see the pic clearly nor could I tell if the heatsink is grounded but imagine it would if bolted to a metal chassis (a DMM would confirm that).
I've seen traces like that before and is only solder going under the solder mask which makes the track look pregnant and take on the appearance that it's lifting. My AKSA (and other amps) has a few pads like that but is not detrimental as it's only additional solder.
Sure, but I also said "may not have mattered", just fore the record
Point is, we never get any information about proper measurements, when asked fore them
You say fine at 38V
Do you know whether all rails are alike
I expect they are, but anyway
Have voltage been measured on different times during the day and evening
How long did bias and DC adjustment take
How many times have it been checked
I asked fore this, but no response
No one respponded to the matter whether trafo secondary colour coding matters
Apology if I missed it
But I guess Smith concludes it doesnt matter
Well, I would think it does
I have to admit I have never tried wrong connection
I remember a very skilled man I knew in my early days
He measured my trafo wires, just to make sure I didnt get phasing issues, in his own words
So, I have always been very careful about that
Besides, good trafos come with colour coding scheme, right
Good trafos are winded very carefully, and colour coded, and fore a good reason
Why buy expencive amp modules, expecting good sound, and not care about such things
Point is, we never get any information about proper measurements, when asked fore them
You say fine at 38V
Do you know whether all rails are alike
I expect they are, but anyway
Have voltage been measured on different times during the day and evening
How long did bias and DC adjustment take
How many times have it been checked
I asked fore this, but no response
No one respponded to the matter whether trafo secondary colour coding matters
Apology if I missed it
But I guess Smith concludes it doesnt matter
Well, I would think it does
I have to admit I have never tried wrong connection
I remember a very skilled man I knew in my early days
He measured my trafo wires, just to make sure I didnt get phasing issues, in his own words
So, I have always been very careful about that
Besides, good trafos come with colour coding scheme, right
Good trafos are winded very carefully, and colour coded, and fore a good reason
Why buy expencive amp modules, expecting good sound, and not care about such things
Professor smith said:
Dont know
I heard it from highly skilled pro
I man who knows about such things
But its also pure logic
Why else is each winding with different colour at each end
If it didnt matter there would only need to be 2 different colours, one fore each winding
I suppose I shouldnt mention the importance of correct orientation of the PRIMARIES
When using TWO trafos in the same enclosure, its important that they are oriented the same
If you want uptimum result
And it should be connect to house mains with the orientation too
If not, you will never get best possible sound
Those things matters
Dont know if it has anything to do with this
But I just made a crossover inductor
Or in fact two
Two seperate windings on the same toroid core
The two windings are connected in series
So I have a midpoint, just like with the ones you use
The funny thing is that depending on which ends are joined together, the resulting induction is different, and quite a lot actually
But regarding builing amps
Im no expert in understanding electronics either
But I still build amps
So, when we dont know better, we should stick to basics and common practice
And be exstremely careful in everything
Its really very important
Study how other do theirs
Which makes a place like this a really fantastic oportunity to learn and get solid advice
Man, You have no idea who you are dealing with here
You better respect people here a bit more and listen to what is being said
Dont play smart, but admit you know nothing, and take the advice you get, and ask before doing anything, even about the smallest details
The transformer supplier or manufacturer usually has the wiring and colour code info and can also show the winding start or reference. You need to do some research. I built mine using Antrim transformers and found their website had the info.
http://www.antrimtransformers.com/add_page.php?PageId=643
Just find out your brand and do some searching and it will be revealed.
Tinitus
I wasn't having a go at any of your comments but was just posting some info I had about his voltages. Keep this quiet as I'm embarrassed how stupid I was, but when I wired the transformer on my first AKSA I had the wiring wrong and Hugh was surprised it even worked.... in theory it shouldn't have.
shhhhh! I didn't check the manufacturer's data did I. Lesson learned.
http://www.antrimtransformers.com/add_page.php?PageId=643
Just find out your brand and do some searching and it will be revealed.
Tinitus
I wasn't having a go at any of your comments but was just posting some info I had about his voltages. Keep this quiet as I'm embarrassed how stupid I was, but when I wired the transformer on my first AKSA I had the wiring wrong and Hugh was surprised it even worked.... in theory it shouldn't have.
shhhhh! I didn't check the manufacturer's data did I. Lesson learned.see this is the kind of attitude which puts me off.
Respect doesnt mean I should agree with everything. I have every right to voice my opinion no? If I am wrong then I am wrong.
Regarding the transformer windings rabbitz, the diagram says sec1 sec2. Hugh has also told me it doesnt matter.
Professor smith said:
Rabbitz, I know You have always only good intentions, I only corrected the quote
And the same goes fore me, even if it doesnt sound that way to professor smith
Some times objectiveness sounds harsh
1. Ofcourse, but thats certainly not my intention
But its the position you put yourself in that does that
2. Yes it does
You have world class people, and you know nothing about electronics(me neither)
3. Making your amp work is what matters, not personal opinions
4. Well, when you are wrong things like this happens, and you dont want that, right
5. Really? are sure its not a misunderstanding
This is only about trying to get your amp work properly
Focus on technical issues only
Personal matters and hurt feelings only makes it harder
But sure, its not nice to be critisized, but have to be if you want to get anywhere with this
Thats the game of a forum like this
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but secondary 1 and 2 doesn't matter and can go to either AC side of the bridge rectifier or diode network but it's important to get the centre tap joint correct. Imagine if you connected the red and yellow to the power ground (don't ask). 😱
You have to find your transformer wiring layout to ensure it's correct as they are all different.
You have to find your transformer wiring layout to ensure it's correct as they are all different.
Hi Peter,
I sure am hoping you are feeling a bit better these days. It's always just a little bit harder to do everything when you have serious issues. You have, of course, remained very objective and I think that is a very important point.
Hi tinitus,
Your point about how objective comments may sound harsh to someone else is a very good observation. This may be some of what is occurring here. I know that if someone wants to read more into a post, they can probably make it sound like almost anything they want. So someone who expects the worst might be more affected.
All,
This is easier for some people than others. I like to say that every comment should be taken as objective with on attempt made for ridicule or a personal jab unless the types words are very clear. Taking a view like this would certainly cut down on angry posts around here. Remember that most of us have no time to go around picking silly fights.
-Chris
I sure am hoping you are feeling a bit better these days. It's always just a little bit harder to do everything when you have serious issues. You have, of course, remained very objective and I think that is a very important point.
Hi tinitus,
Your point about how objective comments may sound harsh to someone else is a very good observation. This may be some of what is occurring here. I know that if someone wants to read more into a post, they can probably make it sound like almost anything they want. So someone who expects the worst might be more affected.
All,
This is easier for some people than others. I like to say that every comment should be taken as objective with on attempt made for ridicule or a personal jab unless the types words are very clear. Taking a view like this would certainly cut down on angry posts around here. Remember that most of us have no time to go around picking silly fights.
-Chris
Professor smith,
Since you are rewiring this amplifier anyway, wouldn't it also be a good time to optimize the layout?
If you examine this layout that Ryan (RKH) built, it am pretty sure that all winging and layout issues would be permanently history. That's assuming that you get use to soldering. Another hint on making good joints. Make sure you have a good mechanical connection before you solder. That means that a wire that goes though an eyelet or terminal is squeezed with pliers before you solder it. Wires that have push-on connectors installed only need to be clean and bare, and properly crimped. A proper crimp is a gas tight joint and the connector should also support the insulation of the wire.
I have a strong feeling that this is all you really need to do. The only exception to this would be to check the soldering of any and all terminals you had soldered wires to on the foil side (rear) of the PC boards.
Would you be willing to give that a try?
One big problem I see with your layout is that your signal input runs far too close to the power supply PCB. You have very high peak currents running through that board. I do see that you have made an attempt to cross wires at 90°. Avoiding that situation is even better.
I am wishing you a satisfying finish to this project. What you are learning here applies to all signal handling equipment. So, the lessons you are learning are valuable for the future.
-Chris
Since you are rewiring this amplifier anyway, wouldn't it also be a good time to optimize the layout?
If you examine this layout that Ryan (RKH) built, it am pretty sure that all winging and layout issues would be permanently history. That's assuming that you get use to soldering. Another hint on making good joints. Make sure you have a good mechanical connection before you solder. That means that a wire that goes though an eyelet or terminal is squeezed with pliers before you solder it. Wires that have push-on connectors installed only need to be clean and bare, and properly crimped. A proper crimp is a gas tight joint and the connector should also support the insulation of the wire.
I have a strong feeling that this is all you really need to do. The only exception to this would be to check the soldering of any and all terminals you had soldered wires to on the foil side (rear) of the PC boards.
Would you be willing to give that a try?
One big problem I see with your layout is that your signal input runs far too close to the power supply PCB. You have very high peak currents running through that board. I do see that you have made an attempt to cross wires at 90°. Avoiding that situation is even better.
I am wishing you a satisfying finish to this project. What you are learning here applies to all signal handling equipment. So, the lessons you are learning are valuable for the future.
-Chris
rabbitz said:
You are correct but my original question was whether the other channel should also be the same as the other channel.
Rabbitz what source do you use?
what i dont understand is that my layout was suggested to me by Hugh. I could have chosen any other but he actually suggested this particular one.
When I rewired it I made an effort to make it look just like the one Hugh showed me. Yet you are all telling me its no good.
To get the signal wire away from that power input wire I would have to double the length of it and run it behind the amp module along the right hand sideof the chassis. This in itself would probably act as an antenna and cause even more noise. I mentioned that the noise/hiss I got was proportional to the length of the input wire. If I short the input I get very little noise.
When I rewired it I made an effort to make it look just like the one Hugh showed me. Yet you are all telling me its no good.
To get the signal wire away from that power input wire I would have to double the length of it and run it behind the amp module along the right hand sideof the chassis. This in itself would probably act as an antenna and cause even more noise. I mentioned that the noise/hiss I got was proportional to the length of the input wire. If I short the input I get very little noise.
anatech said:
You made the conclusion I was trying to get to 🙂
As I said, when in lack of knowledge, its exstremely important to follow the basic rules, or ask first
As with this trafo colour coding
You dont know really
Then its quite simple
Use the colour coding, like its supposed to
Dont speculate nor argue
Just do it the way its supposed to be done
I cannot understand why this is turning into such a problem
Making shortcuts demands fore more knowledge and skills
Hi tinitus,
I have said that a different way many times before. Thank you!
Only experts can take shortcuts. They are processing many bits of information "in the background" as they think. To an outside observer, it just looks like they are making decisions out of the blue. This is not the case.
Hi Professor smith,
Look at that layout again with an open mind. See how it naturally separates the different cables and keeps the signal wiring short and away from most other wires? The heat sink naturally also performs a shielding function and orients the signal wires close to the rear panel and the associated jacks. The transformers end up near the front panel and the weight is also nicely balanced from side to side. All heat producing parts are nicely separated so that hot spots are minimized.
This example is but one way of laying out an amplifier. It happens to be an excellent example of how to do things correctly.
I have not seen how Hugh does things really. I'm sure he has no trouble either. I just like the way this example has been done.
-Chris
I just thought I would rephrase what you had said. Completely agree with you on these things and you did bring up an excellent point. I do suspect that a great deal of noise here and elsewhere could have been eliminated.
Absolutely!!!
I have said that a different way many times before. Thank you!
An extremely valuable point!
Only experts can take shortcuts. They are processing many bits of information "in the background" as they think. To an outside observer, it just looks like they are making decisions out of the blue. This is not the case.
Hi Professor smith,
Different strokes for different folks I guess. The layout that Ryan has addresses several potential problems. I happen to like it the best and have occasionally done things that way myself. I know it works well and the only change I had made was the wiring lead dress right at the terminals on the amplifier PCBs.
Look at that layout again with an open mind. See how it naturally separates the different cables and keeps the signal wiring short and away from most other wires? The heat sink naturally also performs a shielding function and orients the signal wires close to the rear panel and the associated jacks. The transformers end up near the front panel and the weight is also nicely balanced from side to side. All heat producing parts are nicely separated so that hot spots are minimized.
This example is but one way of laying out an amplifier. It happens to be an excellent example of how to do things correctly.
I have not seen how Hugh does things really. I'm sure he has no trouble either. I just like the way this example has been done.
-Chris
AKSA said:
Hugh,
Just becuase Kenji is making you miserable, I see no reason why you would wish him on me. Talk about passive agressive behavior.
You poor sod, held hostage by a whinging twit who chooses to believe anyone who'll relieve him of any responsibility, even for waiting for the BGs to bed in. 'I don't know who to believe'... even if the person he then chooses to believe admits that they absolutely no actual experience with the component under discussion. Any port in his very own storm.
I vividly remember that excreble process of waiting for the BGs to go through their scizophrenic process. You warned me when I recieved my N+, and I didn't think it could possibly be as torturous as you described. I was wrong..... and because your support has allways been above reproach, I am now enjoying your wonderful Soraya amp.
I assume Kenji voiced his concerns to you prior to his inappropriately taking them public, rather than actually waiting the appropriate time for them to bed in. The fact that you can communicate with courtesy simply means that beatification is in order.
FWIW,
Paul
Paul, please call me Professor.
I am not making him miserable, misery is from within.
How long did you have to wait for the torture to end?
I am not making him miserable, misery is from within.
How long did you have to wait for the torture to end?
Professor,
Well, for those of us old enough to remember the 'Lost in Space" television series, Professor Smith seems quite apt.
I will say that the academics at Cambridge where my son did his Maths Tripos last year weren't nearly as formal; nor are his present teachers at Harvard's doctoral program.
Rather than parphrase my prior comments, which might be subject to dispute, I will give you the link to the thread of 5 years ago where I made my comments -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=12133.msg103233#msg103233
Read the whole thread.
FWIW,
Paul
Well, for those of us old enough to remember the 'Lost in Space" television series, Professor Smith seems quite apt.
I will say that the academics at Cambridge where my son did his Maths Tripos last year weren't nearly as formal; nor are his present teachers at Harvard's doctoral program.
Rather than parphrase my prior comments, which might be subject to dispute, I will give you the link to the thread of 5 years ago where I made my comments -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=12133.msg103233#msg103233
Read the whole thread.
FWIW,
Paul
- Status
- Not open for further replies.