Well - this is great! We have completely solved the question of Pro vs Hifi drivers and now can move on to more important things like CD vs Vinyl and HT vs Stereo, etc.
Swell.
🙄
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Swell.
🙄
[/sarcasm]
Excerpted from FA Everest, 'Master Handbook of Acoustics':
This experiment, suggested by Craig Stark,16 can be performed easily
with your home high-fidelity system and two audio oscillators. Plug one
oscillator into the left channel and the other into the right channel, and
adjust both channels for an equal and comfortable level at some midband
frequency. Set one oscillator to 24 kHz and the other to 23 kHz without
changing the level settings. With either oscillator alone, nothing is heard
because the signal is outside the range of the ear. (He notes here, however,
that the dog might leave the room in disgust!) When both oscillators
are feeding their respective channels, one at 24 kHz and the other at 23
kHz, a distinct 1,000-Hz tone is heard if the tweeters are good enough
and you are standing in the right place.
The 1,000-Hz tone is the difference between 24,000 and 23,000 Hz.
The sum, or 47,000 Hz, which even the dog may not hear even if it
were radiated, is another sideband. Such sum and difference sidebands
are generated whenever two pure tones are mixed in a nonlinear
element. The nonlinear element in the above experiment is the
middle and inner ear. In addition to the intermodulation products discussed
earlier, the nonlinearity of the ear generates new harmonics
that are not present in the sound falling on the eardrum.
So, it seems that extension beyond 22khz is definitely an advantage for a high quality audio source; perhaps not so important at much higher frequencies with the caveat that the transient response of the rolloff not be underdamped.
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I guess we must first decide whether hi-fi and HT is the same or not, before the speaker discussion will make sense. 🙂
Take a look at the bandwidth 20-20K. What is so different?? I know that sounds simplistic but that's really the bottom line. The directivity is a system design issue not a driver one. I thought we were talking about drivers not speaker systems. I would even argue, even at the system level, that asside from directivity they are essentially the same requirements. So I guess Nathans can't do both music and HT??
Rob🙂
I don't believe the problem is with digital, even 44.1Khz sampling can produce excellent results if the recording is done well on high quality equipment and played back on a good system. Most of the problems are created by inferior circuitry around the ADC's and DAC's, as well as poor recordings, not even to mention compression.
It's the present AD/DA process to be limited and in the end it is the final product that matters for us. If the audiophile community has nearly zero impact on the whole market do you think I should be optimistic?
I can just see al lot of speculation about the future and few real advances until now. Hope for the best but until then I stick with my vinyls.
Obviously my middle and inner ear does not show these nonlinearities. I don't hear a 1kHz tone.
Best, Markus
To me bandwidth is about the only thing they have in common. 😀
I don't think the issue is whether one speaker can do both but rather if you want the optimum speaker for it's particular use, the design goals may be quite different. (For some at least. 🙂 ) For that, I don't think it is reasonable to claim one driver is superior to the other, it may depend on application and also personal taste / expectance.
Sure limits your choices (unless your stuck in nostalic old recordings) For me, the most exciting music is the new stuff. And its the music thats a lot more important than the SQ. I will listen to crapy recordings on MP3 on earbuds if thats all I have and its good music.
I have any kind of source. Analog and digital.
Sure. I am not questioning personal preferences.
I've pulled a bunch of OT personal posts. Any further stuff in this vein will result in Sin Bin time.
Yes, it is, but since I am not interested in being a dealer, here is what I do. I will beat the price that I find on the internet (not an exhaustive search) by at least 10%, and then I will charge for shipping. But I will not quote prices and shipping costs. You either trust that you are getting the best deal from me or not, its up to you. There are lots of people who have bought drivers from me and none has complained.
Wow, very interesting! Thank you for that, Thoriated. Would that 1 kHz tone resulting from the interaction of the two ultrasonic tones be called a 'beat' frequency? I remember seeing something similar in school but it has been some time. Anyway, interesting stuff - I always thought ultrasonic stuff was out of the realm of interest but it looks like I was wrong.
Jim
Back on topic then, here is a question:
Say I wanted to use a nice 10" professional mid-woofer in a home audio system, to fill a large room with high dynamic-range, moderate SPL's. Let's say my mid-woofer has an average characteristic sensitivity of 98 dB.
What are my options then for covering the HF section? The cleanest top-ends I have heard, so far, have all been from direct radiating dome tweeters. The compression drivers I have heard, so far, have all played through horns, and have had a detectable horn-character (that I didn't care for). There are some 94 dB (and even greater) hi-fi tweeters out there, but I doubt they would keep up thermally.
Can compression drivers match high-end home-audio dome tweeters for linearity and distortion content, and HF extension? Could the dome tweeters be used in an array to offset their characteristic SPL deficiency?
Jim
Say I wanted to use a nice 10" professional mid-woofer in a home audio system, to fill a large room with high dynamic-range, moderate SPL's. Let's say my mid-woofer has an average characteristic sensitivity of 98 dB.
What are my options then for covering the HF section? The cleanest top-ends I have heard, so far, have all been from direct radiating dome tweeters. The compression drivers I have heard, so far, have all played through horns, and have had a detectable horn-character (that I didn't care for). There are some 94 dB (and even greater) hi-fi tweeters out there, but I doubt they would keep up thermally.
Can compression drivers match high-end home-audio dome tweeters for linearity and distortion content, and HF extension? Could the dome tweeters be used in an array to offset their characteristic SPL deficiency?
Jim
High SPL dome tweeters are very difficult to find.
I have a pair of Dynaudio T330D with a sensitivity of 93-94dB and a capability of 1000W transient. Therefore, I partnered them with twin SS18W8531G00 (94dB) midrange. But Dynaudio don't sell individule drivers any more. You would be extremely lucky to find another pair of T330D. I heard that people asked for over USD$1,000.
Next would be Peerless HDS tweeter of 93dB. I think some of the Scanspeak tweeters would do 92dB. However, they don't appear to have the high power capability of the T330D.
So compression drivers in waveguide may be attractive. However, I have no experience with them. I may try them one day. I am not sure if they can be as easy to work with as dome tweeters in flat frequency response, XO, etc.
I have a pair of Dynaudio T330D with a sensitivity of 93-94dB and a capability of 1000W transient. Therefore, I partnered them with twin SS18W8531G00 (94dB) midrange. But Dynaudio don't sell individule drivers any more. You would be extremely lucky to find another pair of T330D. I heard that people asked for over USD$1,000.
Next would be Peerless HDS tweeter of 93dB. I think some of the Scanspeak tweeters would do 92dB. However, they don't appear to have the high power capability of the T330D.
So compression drivers in waveguide may be attractive. However, I have no experience with them. I may try them one day. I am not sure if they can be as easy to work with as dome tweeters in flat frequency response, XO, etc.
Hi Jim
Well those two aspects are not really important, but the fact is that a good compression driver on a good waveguide has far better sound quality than a dome tweeter. There is a lot of evidence o this fact. Just read the reviews on mt web site. Dome tweeters CANNOT be constant directivity and this is far more importnat than "linearity and distortion content" and as far as thermal compression goes its no contest. IMO the compression driver on a waveguide wins hands down.
Again, no contest, compression drivers on waveguides are very difficult to build and set up properly. This is the reason for their low acceptance in DIY, NOT that they aren't the better choice. Dome tweeters are the easy road to a no-brainer, easy to build acceptable perormance system. But they can't compete with a compression driver on a waveguide is these factors are taken out of the equation.
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