Are you talking the Altec Vott? Well they didnt have the T/S parameters or the puter power back then. So be it! Technology has come a loooooong way since then. I primarly use hydrodynamic puter programs (modified) for horn design. I still like the VOTT because its bold,brash and in your face. If Mr Lansing. Peter Voight had access to the programming/puter power that we have today then i doubt that we would be having this conversation.
Yes, yes, yes !! Long lives ron
Iffin my docs dont kill me first. Going ( now) thru the prostate thing that comes with age.
and the bass is produced by the port -
What is a horn then? Little more than a high tuned dual BR with wave expansion on the second stage.
ron
Yes, yes, yes !! Long lives ron
Iffin my docs dont kill me first. Going ( now) thru the prostate thing that comes with age.
and the bass is produced by the port -
What is a horn then? Little more than a high tuned dual BR with wave expansion on the second stage.
ron
Re: there are many probles with VOtt
Yes, I fully agree.... I have a Altec collector friend, who has the orginal VOTT cabinets, drivers and all... Impressive looking but sonically not that great, huge soundstage, need big room to breath , or it'll sound disjointed.. surprisingly I found that the low bass wasn't that tight and didn't extend that low.. We once tried a Coral Beta 10 in a huge Corner horn which I thought was a heck more impressive than the VOTT... BTW we recently tried a pair of JBL Olympus which sound excellent as well... So if one is going for vintage drivers always a good idea to shop around for different brands and models... 🙂
limono said:
Yes, I fully agree.... I have a Altec collector friend, who has the orginal VOTT cabinets, drivers and all... Impressive looking but sonically not that great, huge soundstage, need big room to breath , or it'll sound disjointed.. surprisingly I found that the low bass wasn't that tight and didn't extend that low.. We once tried a Coral Beta 10 in a huge Corner horn which I thought was a heck more impressive than the VOTT... BTW we recently tried a pair of JBL Olympus which sound excellent as well... So if one is going for vintage drivers always a good idea to shop around for different brands and models... 🙂
Unfortunately
the music and sound in Orchestra Hall is not "bold ,brash and in your face and the system in question should especially perform well on Complex classical material yes??
In my opinion Floriano (original poster) has absolutely no chance to get SOTA performance with DIY solution, zero, null- to achieve his goal. Not without spending a lot of money and even more time (months , years???) There is no computer program to fake the size and the bandwidth (undistorted ) of the horn and you need a few (4, 5) to cover the entire range .All the sources even the DIY ones agree on that but almost nobody follows. Thats why Edgar horns at least on the paper looks OK. Who else but multi thousand $ European Manufacturers ?? I know very little about speakers . I've got obsessed a little with horns and horn speakers because of their wonderful sonic potential but quickly stopped to elude myself that I will achieve any worthy results within any reasonable time any money investment .There is also a problem of having from the beginning a clear sonic goal in mind and how to achieve it. I was on few DIY oriented Audio Shows and guess how many rooms played just a little more complex music say it classical (even the easy one ) -none ,not even one! So I'd abandon the idea of building any price no object speaker system for complex music from scratch or based on somebody's recommendation over the web.
I know I still have to taste the sour grapes of my igno/arrogance .Regards
the music and sound in Orchestra Hall is not "bold ,brash and in your face and the system in question should especially perform well on Complex classical material yes??
In my opinion Floriano (original poster) has absolutely no chance to get SOTA performance with DIY solution, zero, null- to achieve his goal. Not without spending a lot of money and even more time (months , years???) There is no computer program to fake the size and the bandwidth (undistorted ) of the horn and you need a few (4, 5) to cover the entire range .All the sources even the DIY ones agree on that but almost nobody follows. Thats why Edgar horns at least on the paper looks OK. Who else but multi thousand $ European Manufacturers ?? I know very little about speakers . I've got obsessed a little with horns and horn speakers because of their wonderful sonic potential but quickly stopped to elude myself that I will achieve any worthy results within any reasonable time any money investment .There is also a problem of having from the beginning a clear sonic goal in mind and how to achieve it. I was on few DIY oriented Audio Shows and guess how many rooms played just a little more complex music say it classical (even the easy one ) -none ,not even one! So I'd abandon the idea of building any price no object speaker system for complex music from scratch or based on somebody's recommendation over the web.
I know I still have to taste the sour grapes of my igno/arrogance .Regards
Edgar horns.
35 Hz Horn Sub with 18" JBL 2240/2241
80Hz Mid bass 15" EV
350 Hz Tractrix 2441 compression drivers
10 to 20 kHz Fane ST5022
107 db
Or a Klipschorn
33Hz-17kHz± 4dB; 105dB
DIY info: http://www.volvotreter.de/new_system.htm
35 Hz Horn Sub with 18" JBL 2240/2241
80Hz Mid bass 15" EV
350 Hz Tractrix 2441 compression drivers
10 to 20 kHz Fane ST5022
107 db
Or a Klipschorn
33Hz-17kHz± 4dB; 105dB
DIY info: http://www.volvotreter.de/new_system.htm
Geoff H said:
Greets!
For me, the A7 was the first step............ The Barcelona's efficiency, resolution was too low to qualify as truly 'dynamic', it's 'dynamic force' woofer not withstanding. Not a bad speaker, just a step backwards from Altec's previous 'flagships'. It was a lovely piece of furniture though.
GM
Re: there are many probles with VOtt
Greets!
Yes and no, the original three channel 'stereo' horn was designed to cover all but the extreme HF (or ~6 - 11 kHz in those days), so only a super tweeter was added. For whatever reason though (my SWAG is cost), the horn design was shelved and a dipole 'sub' was instead added to the earlier design midrange horn while a new all compression horn loaded two way was developed.
Yes, it has many shortcomings by today's lofty HIFI standards that the early designer's went to their graves fantasizing about, though they can be addressed somewhat, but when all is said and done it was designed as a compact system to throw a ~80 - 11 kHz BW through a movie screen with high intelligibility driven with a low power, limited BW matching impedance amp and all things considered, it did it very well. So yes, with no tweaking to adapt them to HIFI, they are indeed just a nice PA rig, but they can be finessed into a second tier system fairly easily, so we'll have to agree to disagree that PA is all they're good for.
Later iterations were 'bean counter' controlled attempts to keep them ~current, but the industry's push to increase available BW and SPL finished it off. With the right electronics and some room gain, it's a fun speaker that does most things better than all but true SOTA systems, making for a good match in an all vinyl, AM/FM system. BW limiting them and adding a sub and super tweeter system, they can do CDs, HT just fine with some tweaking/fine tuning, but as you note, ultimately they are too distorted to be considered high SQ today, euphonic though it can be to some.
GM
limono said:
Greets!
Yes and no, the original three channel 'stereo' horn was designed to cover all but the extreme HF (or ~6 - 11 kHz in those days), so only a super tweeter was added. For whatever reason though (my SWAG is cost), the horn design was shelved and a dipole 'sub' was instead added to the earlier design midrange horn while a new all compression horn loaded two way was developed.
Yes, it has many shortcomings by today's lofty HIFI standards that the early designer's went to their graves fantasizing about, though they can be addressed somewhat, but when all is said and done it was designed as a compact system to throw a ~80 - 11 kHz BW through a movie screen with high intelligibility driven with a low power, limited BW matching impedance amp and all things considered, it did it very well. So yes, with no tweaking to adapt them to HIFI, they are indeed just a nice PA rig, but they can be finessed into a second tier system fairly easily, so we'll have to agree to disagree that PA is all they're good for.
Later iterations were 'bean counter' controlled attempts to keep them ~current, but the industry's push to increase available BW and SPL finished it off. With the right electronics and some room gain, it's a fun speaker that does most things better than all but true SOTA systems, making for a good match in an all vinyl, AM/FM system. BW limiting them and adding a sub and super tweeter system, they can do CDs, HT just fine with some tweaking/fine tuning, but as you note, ultimately they are too distorted to be considered high SQ today, euphonic though it can be to some.
GM
ronc said:
Well ron, with the above withstanding, I hope that all goes well with the prostate thingie. I am certainly not looking forward for that part (doctors sticking fingers in no go areas...). Best wishes there, Ron
On a more serious note: Since we're speaking large dynamics, SPL and linearity, wouldn't a larger driver (e.g. an 8 incher, pick ur posion -- A FE206? high-ender ?) fare better than a 107 or 126 ? But yet again, if its rolled off at 240 Hz maybe that's overkill..
Thoughts ?
Regards,
Florian
Remember to keep the amplifier part of the equation in mind. I am inexperienced, but I must say that I keep being surprised by the dynamics of my little Tripath-driven Amp6. It's wattage-challenged, but the watts it has are good watts. Percussion is a completely different thing compared to any other amp I've heard.
Throw some of that no-object money at the amp and its power supply!
Throw some of that no-object money at the amp and its power supply!
I have worked a bit with the 206. Without phase plugs and lots of tweaks they have a harsh top end. I really cant see the 206 making it much below 240 Hz or much above 10K, so it needs help on the top and bottom. So its either horn load on the bottom and face the phase issue or add a relative fast woofer and time aling the works. When i went to the 208 sigma and a ribbon tweet it all sorta came together. But then , if you look at it, its truly a 3 way.
ron
ron
Ron,
I thought we are looking at 3 driver combos all along 🙂
The 206 was just an example. I could have listed there the B200, field coil from Fertin (20 EX ?), mid-range Lowther (pm2a ?), whatever you think it fits an are acquainted with: Smth with high SPL, low distortion, as linear as it gets and accurate freq. response.
There should be smth else better/larger than 126 that fits the bill...
Again, it was just a innocent thought
Florian
I thought we are looking at 3 driver combos all along 🙂
The 206 was just an example. I could have listed there the B200, field coil from Fertin (20 EX ?), mid-range Lowther (pm2a ?), whatever you think it fits an are acquainted with: Smth with high SPL, low distortion, as linear as it gets and accurate freq. response.
There should be smth else better/larger than 126 that fits the bill...
Again, it was just a innocent thought
Florian
FlorianO said:
Greets!
Then leave all the 'FR' drivers behind as it's going to require large compression loaded waveguides (WG), preferably as a Unity concept that mimics a huge HE 'FR' rather than stacking several discrete systems with all its shotcomings over a larger area.
GM
GM said:
Funny thing you mention that. I was exchanging a couple of mails with John K about a dipole setup that can address exactly the kind of material we are talking here and he said the exact same thing: FRs are not best way to go.
Anyway, I'm eagerly looking forward for Ron to develop more the concept he outlined, whatever he chooses.
Regards,
Florian
P.S. Yes, I am fully aware that this is the "full range" forum. And the fact that this usually means single driver setups. Sincere appologies for misusing this forum, hope you understand...
What about getting a pair of Altec compression drivers
http://cgi.ebay.com/ALTEC-LANSING-8...5QQihZ008QQcategoryZ73372QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
and combine them with a Supravox 285GMF in the recommended Onken enclusure, plus Supravox horn flare?
More practical and affordable than shipping a whole system around the half globe.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ALTEC-LANSING-8...5QQihZ008QQcategoryZ73372QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
and combine them with a Supravox 285GMF in the recommended Onken enclusure, plus Supravox horn flare?
More practical and affordable than shipping a whole system around the half globe.
JVC and Eminence are just two companies providing drivers for these kinds of (PA-inspired) enclosures. The high-end JVC woofers have shorting rings to reduce distortion. But the JVC drivers are more expensive than I've seen discussed in these fora...
I would be inclined to try to avoid crossovers in the vocal range - that seems to indicate a three-way with a carefully designed mid-range horn.
tim
As you'll have guessed guys, this thread started out in the FR forum, hence the references to FR / WR drivers etc., and spiralled from there, as really, if you want dynamics et al, then you need to go multiway. Should be interesting to get a few different contributions...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This is good - compression drivers from 80 hz up, three horn loaded 18" subs
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Another 'five way' with tractrix horns 150 cycles up - same subs
My latest low compromise horn system is a 4 way with the horn sub system, twin back - loaded 15's (13' 50 hz horn) including a Beyma 15DX coax with a built in 2" exit 4" diaphragm compression driver modified to except the JBL 2241 aluminum diaphragms.
All these systems are multi-amped- if you want dynamics and SLAM of the real thing that is the way to go
I apologise for not reading all 8 pages... but from your first posts it sounds to me like what you need is a pair of Manger drivers with a 12" or 15" high efficiency woofer. Crossover around 200Hz-350Hz.
Open baffles -
Treated Altec bi-flex with big esg ribbons and horn subs
Karlson bass, horn subs, Audax PR170MO's mids and Eminence horn tweeter
21" open baffle bass, JBL 2123J mids, Heil tweeters, horn subs
Latest 'open baffle' is an open baffle line array with horn subs, 12 ten inch pro woofers, 24 five inch mids and 60 one inch neo domes. This is the least compromise of the above
All above multi-amped
Have built many others-
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Treated Altec bi-flex with big esg ribbons and horn subs
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Karlson bass, horn subs, Audax PR170MO's mids and Eminence horn tweeter
21" open baffle bass, JBL 2123J mids, Heil tweeters, horn subs
Latest 'open baffle' is an open baffle line array with horn subs, 12 ten inch pro woofers, 24 five inch mids and 60 one inch neo domes. This is the least compromise of the above
All above multi-amped
Have built many others-
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