Ron,
With audio reviews are anything to go by, that can be done. -- apparently even with excelent results -- in a horn loaded enclosure nonetheless... I am refering to the Horning speakers like the Agathon ultimate or the Alkibiades. It was _that_ kind of high end hybrid design I would love to see emerging. And build. And hear. A hybrid high-end BIB maybe?
Well, after a quick search through this forum the closest thing I found to a DIY description was this drawing:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91372&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=6
If anyone can point me to a more in-depth description/discussion of this design, DIY plans with driver complement I would be very grateful.
ronc said:
With audio reviews are anything to go by, that can be done. -- apparently even with excelent results -- in a horn loaded enclosure nonetheless... I am refering to the Horning speakers like the Agathon ultimate or the Alkibiades. It was _that_ kind of high end hybrid design I would love to see emerging. And build. And hear. A hybrid high-end BIB maybe?
Well, after a quick search through this forum the closest thing I found to a DIY description was this drawing:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91372&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=6
If anyone can point me to a more in-depth description/discussion of this design, DIY plans with driver complement I would be very grateful.
It my haste, I misspelled "Vivaldi". It looks like I'll be cleaning blackboards after school.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Best Regards,
TerryO
My friend, allow me to introduce you to one of the finest loudspeakers ever made. Behold the Altec Lansing Voice of the Theatre A7. http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/plans/1968-plans.htm
This is the 1968 era version. There are a couple of different boxes + plans here as this link to the official Altec Heritage Site will give you their Enclosure Design Guide of that year with 12 downloadable pictures. The VOTT A7 plans are the bottom-left hand picture, but I'd advise reading it all -12 pages of interesting & still educational data from one of the greatest of all speaker companies isn't much of a hardship... (well, I didn't think it was anyway. 😉 ) This is what is known as A Proper Speaker. Effectively, as you can see, the VOTT was / is a huge BR cabinet with the added twist of a front horn / waveguide for the woofer.
Note that these plans really only cover the bass end -the rest was / is handled by compression drivers in their own horn. But a sealed / aperiodic 206, & a good horn loaded supertweeter would be an interesting alternative. In fact, it could be a monster of an idea:
This is the 1968 era version. There are a couple of different boxes + plans here as this link to the official Altec Heritage Site will give you their Enclosure Design Guide of that year with 12 downloadable pictures. The VOTT A7 plans are the bottom-left hand picture, but I'd advise reading it all -12 pages of interesting & still educational data from one of the greatest of all speaker companies isn't much of a hardship... (well, I didn't think it was anyway. 😉 ) This is what is known as A Proper Speaker. Effectively, as you can see, the VOTT was / is a huge BR cabinet with the added twist of a front horn / waveguide for the woofer.
Note that these plans really only cover the bass end -the rest was / is handled by compression drivers in their own horn. But a sealed / aperiodic 206, & a good horn loaded supertweeter would be an interesting alternative. In fact, it could be a monster of an idea:
Attachments
MJK said:
Martin,
As per our discussion in the OB forum -- and if you read btw. the lines of my post above -- my short list was
- Your Project 7
- Bert D Quasar Mk II variation with two Augies wired in parallel and driven by a plate amp; FR on top and (maybe) a (super)tweeter.
- Dick Ohlsher OB2 version of the Visaton NoBox with the Augie and the Feastrex D5nf (my top fav from this list atm).
Still, I have two concerns with those setups when it comes to the kind of material we are talking about.
The first is what Ron mentioned above: Employing woofers with high Qt for the bass extension. IIRC you even used the Eminence Alpha 15A with a Qt of 1.2 (!). In my understanding that comes in direct contrast with the above strife for acceleration and dynamics.
The second is what I posted above and related to the first issue: Those woofers are XOed around 200 Hz -- in the aforementioned orchestral power region -- and thus there is a clear mismatch in transient speed/dynamics btw. the FR and the woofer(s).
Still, I will take your word for great dynamics and I will be looking forward for your driver integration and freq sweeps.
Mike,
As you can see, we are on the same page. My fav listening is baroque, with Vivaldi, Telemann, Albioni and Händel (in that order) topping the list. However, I will be gladly offer my lowest octave for that goose-bumps-giving explosive transients in the upper bass (think "Mercury" from G. Holst "Planets" or the beginning of the Mahler 5th).
And yes, SET driven FRs and plate amps below is the hidden wish (atm very proud and happy with the 70 wpc from 4xKT90 pentodes / channel in EAR 890 but writing to Santa about a Welborne Labs DRD 300B, the Terraplane version. But I digress 😉)
You can try Edgar Horn
It is the only honest , sort of affordable and also DIY possible horn solution on the market. Sorry but if you look for dynamics and scale with any realistic sense nothing else but horn will do . BD design -like designs are band aid for fostex ,lowther like drivers and don't work.I've met Bert it's a nice guy but the product is crap. It is better crap than most on the market nonethless its crap. (I know I use the idea too) Other possibility is Tannoy vintage 15" ($$$$) in horn cabinet ,maybe not very realistic but very seductive sound .My advice is to go to orchestra hall sit close to stage and hear the , mid bass ,low mid energy and than use it to evaluate the speaker in question. Mistakes on project like this tend to be expensive and I'm quite a victim 😉 Cheers. L
It is the only honest , sort of affordable and also DIY possible horn solution on the market. Sorry but if you look for dynamics and scale with any realistic sense nothing else but horn will do . BD design -like designs are band aid for fostex ,lowther like drivers and don't work.I've met Bert it's a nice guy but the product is crap. It is better crap than most on the market nonethless its crap. (I know I use the idea too) Other possibility is Tannoy vintage 15" ($$$$) in horn cabinet ,maybe not very realistic but very seductive sound .My advice is to go to orchestra hall sit close to stage and hear the , mid bass ,low mid energy and than use it to evaluate the speaker in question. Mistakes on project like this tend to be expensive and I'm quite a victim 😉 Cheers. L
I think you are placing too much emphasis on the high Qts of the woofers. If you go with a low Qts woofer in an OB the bass is going to roll off much higher. With the higher Qts woofer, the OB is already rolling the bass off so the extended low frequency driver SPL response makes up for some of this width dependent characteristic.
Crossing over in the 100 to 200 Hz range means that no matter which woofer you use, it is only producing a very narrow range of frequencies. Turning off the second amp and listening only to the woofer(s) produces just a low end rumble, almost a muffled sounding bass. All of the speed, dynamics, and detail are produced by the full range driver so I recommend spending your money on this driver.
If you want to go the OB route, I believe a higher Qts bass driver is a real advantage. I started out with the same opinions and doubts that you are expressing. Sometimes you need to take a leap of faith, the higher Qts drivers are relatively inexpensive and a quick experiment will settle your questions/doubts. My next OB design will also use the Eminence Alpha 15A driver.
You can raise the q of a speaker to any arbitrary value with a resistor, though it does eat power and effects Z.
I didn't really clue in to the price is no object idea in my last post. I'd still say get the best single driver fullrange you can muster and stay with that. Sink the rest of the money into the room and more music. Dave🙂
A 50KW amplifier like WLW's Cathenode amplifier as a driver for a plasma speaker on each channel.
The Cathenode was a 50KW cathode modulated (no mod xfmr) AM transmitter. The modulator itself ran in class AB, rather than the usual B. Certified hifi by McIntosh Laboratories.
I suspect at some point, money is an object, alas.😉
The Cathenode was a 50KW cathode modulated (no mod xfmr) AM transmitter. The modulator itself ran in class AB, rather than the usual B. Certified hifi by McIntosh Laboratories.
I suspect at some point, money is an object, alas.😉
1. Altec VOT A7 bass cab (Altec driver required for speed!) + some wooden mid-horn (Edgar?) ( or 8-cell if not 15 cell) + helper tweet ,with Hiraga xovers
2. Klipsch KH bass cab + nice wooden mid horn (again Edgar) + tweet
3. nice 10" in somewhat wider Mauhorn + Lowther like driver in OB
3a. OB like MJK's Lowther + two 15"
etc
2. Klipsch KH bass cab + nice wooden mid horn (again Edgar) + tweet
3. nice 10" in somewhat wider Mauhorn + Lowther like driver in OB
3a. OB like MJK's Lowther + two 15"
etc
Scott,
Many thanks for the VOTT link. Cheers mate 🙂 !. Really impressive design. One wonders though: If that design was that good, why was it abandoned ? Maybe it's just my ignorance, but that was the first time I've seen it (large concert speakers notwithstanding. Not sure if it's same design but they sure look similar). Was it because it wasn't "consumer friendly" (large room requirements, etc) ?
Anyway. After some consideration I can definitively see myself trying my luck with an OB. Not least due to the dipole radiation and the way dipoles load a room.
In the mean time I will sit on the fence and wait for Martin's OB devel's. So I'm keeping my options open.
Anyway, it would be oh-so-nice to see emerging an appropriate hybrid design based on the enclousures discussed in this forum. And apparently there is not just me intrested in such a thingie..
Thanks all,
Florian
P.S. Time to eat some crow: Yes, yes, "cost-no-object" was jumping the gun... It should have been "value-for-the-money high-end" or smth like that. Afterall money always comes into play - sooner or later. And of course DIY doesn't really jive with "cost-no-object" either 😎
Many thanks for the VOTT link. Cheers mate 🙂 !. Really impressive design. One wonders though: If that design was that good, why was it abandoned ? Maybe it's just my ignorance, but that was the first time I've seen it (large concert speakers notwithstanding. Not sure if it's same design but they sure look similar). Was it because it wasn't "consumer friendly" (large room requirements, etc) ?
Anyway. After some consideration I can definitively see myself trying my luck with an OB. Not least due to the dipole radiation and the way dipoles load a room.
In the mean time I will sit on the fence and wait for Martin's OB devel's. So I'm keeping my options open.
Anyway, it would be oh-so-nice to see emerging an appropriate hybrid design based on the enclousures discussed in this forum. And apparently there is not just me intrested in such a thingie..
Thanks all,
Florian
P.S. Time to eat some crow: Yes, yes, "cost-no-object" was jumping the gun... It should have been "value-for-the-money high-end" or smth like that. Afterall money always comes into play - sooner or later. And of course DIY doesn't really jive with "cost-no-object" either 😎
What about Pi speakers?
If the VOTT is interesting, have a look at Wayne Parham's speakers. He seems to come from a similar perspective, using professional audio drivers and a mix of horn and bass reflex configurations. There's also a very active forum covering his designs.
Wayne gives away his designs and will sell you kits or completed speakers if you want.
Pi Speakers
If the VOTT is interesting, have a look at Wayne Parham's speakers. He seems to come from a similar perspective, using professional audio drivers and a mix of horn and bass reflex configurations. There's also a very active forum covering his designs.
Wayne gives away his designs and will sell you kits or completed speakers if you want.
Pi Speakers
Just picked up on the thread, very interesting. The initial issue was dynamics and the 4 inch driver, having played a lot with 4 inches I've found a few things that might help with the current set up but won't solve the long term problem of course. I suspect that what is really being alluded to is the muddying of the sound and the inability to make out the individual intruments and nuances as the volume/complexity increases, which is maybe not the same as dynamics, which to me is the abiity to respond to difference between loud and soft sounds as reproduce accurately. maybe I'm wrong on that though.
4 inch drivers get congested if asked to go too low, and this effects the whole frequency range, adding 2 subs rather than tuning low (but you need to add a steep active high pass filter to the main driver set-up) makes a massive difference. The 2 subs are not overkill at all in this arrangement they make for far better sound at the lower end. If the main FR driver has the lower bass kept out then it can deal with more watts and is far less likely to be operating out of its proper cone travel which I supect is what causes a lot of the trouble.
The high end is helped a lot by having a super tweeter and I have recently had great results with piezos (properly set -up) which seem to blend beautifully with FRs if cut in high. Once again driving the midrange hard will make it difficult for the driver to do good highs above say 9khz or so, my tweets cut in at this and it seems a good match. Ideally I probably should limit the highs to the main 4 inch drivers, it would likely be cleaner again, but as yet I haven't. The piezos give air and depth in abundance.
Having played with lots of differnt set-ups my favorite for dynamics is definitely OB, but I am planning to try either Rons A126 horn or the Frugel in combination with the subs and supertweeters so I may change my mind there. My curent OB set-up is actually an OB in which the front of the driver fires into a front horn with the back open, sounds odd but it is beautiful to listen to and it is the result of about 18months of experimenting.
Just on dynamics, for pure slam dunk dynamics the best experimental set-up I ever had was an array of 4 by 4 inch drivers per side on OBs, it was quite stupendous even on a couple of watts, the problem is the combing of the upper mids and highs which is just horrible so the accuracy/resolution is not right but I always felt that such a system could be made to work if say an active crossover network could be made along with amps that directed the frequencies to the drivers so that as the frequency increased less drivers were used to handle the sound, with only one driver ultimately handling the real high end. Pnce again supplemented by subs and super tweets. Such a design is quite a bit beyond me at this point.
One thing that has not been mentioned here is the actual noise floor of the system, in my system evey time I got the noise floor lower it was like gaining an increase in dynamics, my current set up bar my TT is 100% battery powered, there is literally no noise at all no matter what the volume and this seems to make a big diffenece to the dynamics of the system, far more than I ever thought it would actually. Horns I have heard have always accentuated the noise floor issues within the system as do very efficient FR drivers so this I feel should not be underestimated.
4 inch drivers get congested if asked to go too low, and this effects the whole frequency range, adding 2 subs rather than tuning low (but you need to add a steep active high pass filter to the main driver set-up) makes a massive difference. The 2 subs are not overkill at all in this arrangement they make for far better sound at the lower end. If the main FR driver has the lower bass kept out then it can deal with more watts and is far less likely to be operating out of its proper cone travel which I supect is what causes a lot of the trouble.
The high end is helped a lot by having a super tweeter and I have recently had great results with piezos (properly set -up) which seem to blend beautifully with FRs if cut in high. Once again driving the midrange hard will make it difficult for the driver to do good highs above say 9khz or so, my tweets cut in at this and it seems a good match. Ideally I probably should limit the highs to the main 4 inch drivers, it would likely be cleaner again, but as yet I haven't. The piezos give air and depth in abundance.
Having played with lots of differnt set-ups my favorite for dynamics is definitely OB, but I am planning to try either Rons A126 horn or the Frugel in combination with the subs and supertweeters so I may change my mind there. My curent OB set-up is actually an OB in which the front of the driver fires into a front horn with the back open, sounds odd but it is beautiful to listen to and it is the result of about 18months of experimenting.
Just on dynamics, for pure slam dunk dynamics the best experimental set-up I ever had was an array of 4 by 4 inch drivers per side on OBs, it was quite stupendous even on a couple of watts, the problem is the combing of the upper mids and highs which is just horrible so the accuracy/resolution is not right but I always felt that such a system could be made to work if say an active crossover network could be made along with amps that directed the frequencies to the drivers so that as the frequency increased less drivers were used to handle the sound, with only one driver ultimately handling the real high end. Pnce again supplemented by subs and super tweets. Such a design is quite a bit beyond me at this point.
One thing that has not been mentioned here is the actual noise floor of the system, in my system evey time I got the noise floor lower it was like gaining an increase in dynamics, my current set up bar my TT is 100% battery powered, there is literally no noise at all no matter what the volume and this seems to make a big diffenece to the dynamics of the system, far more than I ever thought it would actually. Horns I have heard have always accentuated the noise floor issues within the system as do very efficient FR drivers so this I feel should not be underestimated.
Money, plain & simple. In a sense, the Voice of the Theatre wasn't really abandoned -it's still available as a made-to-order legacy product from Altec, or what passes for Altec these days: http://www.digitalriver.com/dr/sat5...=&V4=&DSP=0&CUR=840&PGRP=0&ABCODE=&CACHE_ID=0 As the name implies, it was principally aimed at cinemas etc., though dedicated DIYers built their own -the gap between pro and home audio in some ways was not as large as it is today.
Anyway, a sea-change occured with the advent of transistor power in the 1970s. Big power figures, for relatively little cash, compared to whet it would cost to get that kind of grunt from tubes. And it only gets cheaper as time marches on -look at the kind of grunt you can get out of Class D for peanuts. As a result, high efficiency designs like the VOTT began to fall out of favour. Due to their size & complexity, they were hellishly expensive to produce as ready-built enclosures for the pro-market. So why bother continuing to produce a speaker which is intended to make the most out of limited power when power is both no longer limited, and very cheap? That, in a nutshell, was the death of high-efficiency generally. PA scoop-bins etc are starting to go too, for similar reasons.
Anyway, a sea-change occured with the advent of transistor power in the 1970s. Big power figures, for relatively little cash, compared to whet it would cost to get that kind of grunt from tubes. And it only gets cheaper as time marches on -look at the kind of grunt you can get out of Class D for peanuts. As a result, high efficiency designs like the VOTT began to fall out of favour. Due to their size & complexity, they were hellishly expensive to produce as ready-built enclosures for the pro-market. So why bother continuing to produce a speaker which is intended to make the most out of limited power when power is both no longer limited, and very cheap? That, in a nutshell, was the death of high-efficiency generally. PA scoop-bins etc are starting to go too, for similar reasons.
Michael Methe has both an Oris horn with AER MD3 and a vintage Altec system. You could ask him what he recommends for complex music. Two other companies that should be brought into discussion, especially when the topic is cost no object, are ALE and GOTO, the only manufacturers of compression drivers these days that go for quality below 1W, not for power handling.
http://www.methe-family.de
http://www.methe-family.de
I am just experimenting with a vintage 9710 ticonal 8 inch Philips fullrange drivers. Currently it is in an ob, and I am quite satisfied with its performance (I mostly listen to classical: opera/chamber and orchestral). Especially voices are wonderfully presented. However it has been suggested to me that it could match well with a Visaton bgs40 woofer (98 db; qts 0.31). I will probably listen to this combination in the coming week. If you would like, I can keep you posted.
I've heard the phy drivers in a Grand Duetto http://www.musicalaffairs.com/prod/musicalaffairs_en.php. It was at a show, so the listening impression was limited. Nevertheless it sounded like an excellent unit. But too rich for my blood.
I've heard the phy drivers in a Grand Duetto http://www.musicalaffairs.com/prod/musicalaffairs_en.php. It was at a show, so the listening impression was limited. Nevertheless it sounded like an excellent unit. But too rich for my blood.
You could surely go with field coild drivers in open-baffle.
One option would be a Fertin 20EX with a 46EX (18inch)
in open-baffle. You would get all the dynamic, clarity,
detail sound of the field-coil . With a 20EX ( no tweeter
needed:20Khz+) in an easy Fertin open-baffle plan.
If you're looking for high magnetic flux(field coil),
light cones(treated) and
low excursion voice-coil (silver v.c/ cryog for smoother highs)
then Fertin 20EX combine with Fertin woofers would give
you all the characteristics you want: natural, lifelike midrange,
with startling dynamic. Add woofers and you get the
open-baffle bass that is so amazing.
best of both world.
One option would be a Fertin 20EX with a 46EX (18inch)
in open-baffle. You would get all the dynamic, clarity,
detail sound of the field-coil . With a 20EX ( no tweeter
needed:20Khz+) in an easy Fertin open-baffle plan.
If you're looking for high magnetic flux(field coil),
light cones(treated) and
low excursion voice-coil (silver v.c/ cryog for smoother highs)
then Fertin 20EX combine with Fertin woofers would give
you all the characteristics you want: natural, lifelike midrange,
with startling dynamic. Add woofers and you get the
open-baffle bass that is so amazing.
best of both world.
Re: What about Pi speakers?
Tim,
I only took a cursory look at Pi speakers in the past but moved on, dunno why... Looking a bit closer now they sure look just like the doctor recommended: High eff, multi-way horns. Open design with thriving community. Speaker combos avail as kits. Me likes ...
Tim, many thanks for the tip. Really worth investigating further. Looking forward for finding the fly in _that_ ointment
Thanks again Scott. Just like I suspected. However, there seems to be quite a few companies that found a way survive in a high-end niche.
When I meant "abandoned" I wasn't necessarily refering to "consumer" market (afterall can you count horns as "mainstream" ?). I was primarily thinking at the DIY scene -- I really had to dig for finding info about it. Maybe it was due to the same reasons -- large size, complicated built, etc. Or just my ignorance, of course 🙂
Anyway. Off I go to take a closer look at the Pi speakers. Their "seven Pi" series really look appealing (corner loading notwithstanding 😉)
Tim,
timbarnes said:
I only took a cursory look at Pi speakers in the past but moved on, dunno why... Looking a bit closer now they sure look just like the doctor recommended: High eff, multi-way horns. Open design with thriving community. Speaker combos avail as kits. Me likes ...
Tim, many thanks for the tip. Really worth investigating further. Looking forward for finding the fly in _that_ ointment
Scottmoose said:
Thanks again Scott. Just like I suspected. However, there seems to be quite a few companies that found a way survive in a high-end niche.
When I meant "abandoned" I wasn't necessarily refering to "consumer" market (afterall can you count horns as "mainstream" ?). I was primarily thinking at the DIY scene -- I really had to dig for finding info about it. Maybe it was due to the same reasons -- large size, complicated built, etc. Or just my ignorance, of course 🙂
Anyway. Off I go to take a closer look at the Pi speakers. Their "seven Pi" series really look appealing (corner loading notwithstanding 😉)
Altec effectively became JBL, with somewhat different priortities -the world changed considerably, and many companies had to move with the times, or die. Most died. It's still happening -Castle Acoustic, near where I live, went under a couple of months back for example.
The VOTT was never abandoned by DIYers. It's still something of a holy grail for many, me included. The main issues are size & cost (not too many people from the 1970s onward were able to justify to their other half the inclusion of two of these monsters in their living room), and on occasion a misguided belief that new automatically means better. The information is out there & freely available now, thanks to the internet, but for a couple of decades became harder to get hold of, and what with the advent of transistors, and Theil & Small coming along & unintentionally stifling creativity, many fundamental truths and good designs were either forgotton or suffered a dramatic fall in their popularity. It's seen everywhere, not just in audio. Classic historial pattern. Someone comes up with a bright idea, it's utilised but in the process we forget the lessons of the past. I'm writing a paper on just this sort of thing at the moment ironically enough, albeit in a somewhat different subject.
The VOTT was never abandoned by DIYers. It's still something of a holy grail for many, me included. The main issues are size & cost (not too many people from the 1970s onward were able to justify to their other half the inclusion of two of these monsters in their living room), and on occasion a misguided belief that new automatically means better. The information is out there & freely available now, thanks to the internet, but for a couple of decades became harder to get hold of, and what with the advent of transistors, and Theil & Small coming along & unintentionally stifling creativity, many fundamental truths and good designs were either forgotton or suffered a dramatic fall in their popularity. It's seen everywhere, not just in audio. Classic historial pattern. Someone comes up with a bright idea, it's utilised but in the process we forget the lessons of the past. I'm writing a paper on just this sort of thing at the moment ironically enough, albeit in a somewhat different subject.
Hi Scott.
James B Lansing left Altec Lansing to form JBL after several "conferences" Altec Lansing hung on to the name.
But a shame non the less to see the manufacturer of what many believe to be the world's greatest speaker system, stick their logo on plastic out of Asia. I still regard the A7 and Barcelona as the last steps towards the real thing.
Sad to hear about Castle. With the resurgence of full rangers, I wonder if things may be different for them had they re-released the speaker that kicked them off. An 8" dual cone, (rebadged Wharfedale)
Geoff
James B Lansing left Altec Lansing to form JBL after several "conferences" Altec Lansing hung on to the name.
But a shame non the less to see the manufacturer of what many believe to be the world's greatest speaker system, stick their logo on plastic out of Asia. I still regard the A7 and Barcelona as the last steps towards the real thing.
Sad to hear about Castle. With the resurgence of full rangers, I wonder if things may be different for them had they re-released the speaker that kicked them off. An 8" dual cone, (rebadged Wharfedale)
Geoff
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