Still strikes me after all the bluff and bluster that a reasonable, say 2mH @ 100Hz inductor will be just fine, and unless I'm mistaken (which I have been once or twice) Mr Pass agrees with me.
The reason I asked about the technical explanation of the differance between air, iron and ferite cored inductors is not because I view technology over music, just that I like a technical explanation so I can understand things, and also because I fear ther is an astonishing amount of pseudo technical babble spouted about around audio electronics.
The reason I asked about the technical explanation of the differance between air, iron and ferite cored inductors is not because I view technology over music, just that I like a technical explanation so I can understand things, and also because I fear ther is an astonishing amount of pseudo technical babble spouted about around audio electronics.
loops and losses
Bertie,
Those H loops and resistive or thermal losses described in the pdfs of the kindly posted urls in this thread, characterise both electrically and ultimately sonically a choke. Winding technique is a factor too.
When passing much ripple they shout their voice even more.
1. Air cores: open highs, faster mids, less upper mid bloom. good rythm and pace.
2. Iron dust cores: thickened highs, robust bass, overcooked upper bass, slightly closed in mids.
3. Ferrite cores: Muddy across the spectrum, closed in mids and soundstage. Treble roll off.
4. Gapped toroids: Best balance overall. open fast and robust. slam
5. normal toroids: As above 80% close. 100% as above in minute currents.
Hope this gives you an idea. Read the pdfs.
Good construction and happy listening
Nick
Bertie,
Those H loops and resistive or thermal losses described in the pdfs of the kindly posted urls in this thread, characterise both electrically and ultimately sonically a choke. Winding technique is a factor too.
When passing much ripple they shout their voice even more.
1. Air cores: open highs, faster mids, less upper mid bloom. good rythm and pace.
2. Iron dust cores: thickened highs, robust bass, overcooked upper bass, slightly closed in mids.
3. Ferrite cores: Muddy across the spectrum, closed in mids and soundstage. Treble roll off.
4. Gapped toroids: Best balance overall. open fast and robust. slam
5. normal toroids: As above 80% close. 100% as above in minute currents.
Hope this gives you an idea. Read the pdfs.
Good construction and happy listening
Nick
Nick
I somehow noticed this thread late but find it really interesting. I also discovered the application of ps chokes in valve circuits late - about 5-6 years ago. Not that i didn't know about chokes, i just didn't see the point of using them. Eventually, due to the perseverance of an enlightened friend i tried using them in both preamps and power amps. Initially my experiments were not encouraging. My friend was apparently using Tango and Tamura and me, being a cheapscate used whatever old salvaged chokes i could lay my hands on. The comparison i was interested in was not so much between chokes but rather between chokes and resistors. While the chokes unquestionably improved some areas like bass and rhythm, others like high frequency extension and air were quite suspect. Took me a while and lots of different chokes to try before i deemed it worth to leave them in the amps. Dunno whether it has something to do with the kilometres of thin wire or the type of cores, but even the best i tried (didn't try any really good stuff ) always robbed the sound of some immediacy and air. Overall chokes are probably better than active regulation in what they do for the sound.
My experience is only in valve circuits where the currents and capacitances are small and the chokes huge. In solid state circuits people seem content with large capacitances and the sonic effect of chokes is probably smaller. It would be interesting to try and replace most of the capacitance with inductance and in particular try a choke input ps with a small capacitance, but it will probably be almost impossible at the required currents.
So, Nick, what i would really love to know is how do chokes compare with 'no chokes' in your ps. Did you conduct your experiments only in high-current class a amps or did you also try them on AB? What about ss preamps?
peter
I somehow noticed this thread late but find it really interesting. I also discovered the application of ps chokes in valve circuits late - about 5-6 years ago. Not that i didn't know about chokes, i just didn't see the point of using them. Eventually, due to the perseverance of an enlightened friend i tried using them in both preamps and power amps. Initially my experiments were not encouraging. My friend was apparently using Tango and Tamura and me, being a cheapscate used whatever old salvaged chokes i could lay my hands on. The comparison i was interested in was not so much between chokes but rather between chokes and resistors. While the chokes unquestionably improved some areas like bass and rhythm, others like high frequency extension and air were quite suspect. Took me a while and lots of different chokes to try before i deemed it worth to leave them in the amps. Dunno whether it has something to do with the kilometres of thin wire or the type of cores, but even the best i tried (didn't try any really good stuff ) always robbed the sound of some immediacy and air. Overall chokes are probably better than active regulation in what they do for the sound.
My experience is only in valve circuits where the currents and capacitances are small and the chokes huge. In solid state circuits people seem content with large capacitances and the sonic effect of chokes is probably smaller. It would be interesting to try and replace most of the capacitance with inductance and in particular try a choke input ps with a small capacitance, but it will probably be almost impossible at the required currents.
So, Nick, what i would really love to know is how do chokes compare with 'no chokes' in your ps. Did you conduct your experiments only in high-current class a amps or did you also try them on AB? What about ss preamps?
peter
Hi,
I have 2 steel inductors wich weigh about 2kg each.
They have an inductance of 23mH, and can hold up to Idc=5A
Can I use them for my Aleph 4? (Share the same PS)
I bought them for 2euro's so I thought it was worth buying it.
Thank you,
Remco.
I have 2 steel inductors wich weigh about 2kg each.
They have an inductance of 23mH, and can hold up to Idc=5A
Can I use them for my Aleph 4? (Share the same PS)
I bought them for 2euro's so I thought it was worth buying it.
Thank you,
Remco.
xperiments
Hi,
I conducted experiments on tube preamps and amps, ss preamps, class A & AB amps.
My findings are:
1. Tube preamps: Pi sounds better than choke input. use a very small 10-20uf film cap upfront. much/less inductance/capacitance good. EI cores bad. Toroids super. no more Rdc than 50 Ohm per 10ma load. The wire is muting air. Rdc for damping can be added with a Holco or Caddock. Brake inductance in feeding stages and channels.
2. Tube Amps: Choke input sounds better than pi in SE, pi better in PP class A&AB no more than 5H per 100ma load. Toroids are superb, keep rdc minimum. caps x1/x3 fore/after in pi.
3. ss preamps: Pi is better. big caps medium H. Rdc less of a problem. EI cores closer to toroids. Best solution, one pi, then split RC filters per stage/channel
3. SS Amps: a) class A: heavy ripple so little mh low rdc, .5-.75 Ohm per A. heavy caps. x1/x2 for/after. b) class AB: double the mh cut in half the Rdc. caps x1/x3 for/after.
Hope you find my info usefull.
Thanx
Nick
Hi,
I conducted experiments on tube preamps and amps, ss preamps, class A & AB amps.
My findings are:
1. Tube preamps: Pi sounds better than choke input. use a very small 10-20uf film cap upfront. much/less inductance/capacitance good. EI cores bad. Toroids super. no more Rdc than 50 Ohm per 10ma load. The wire is muting air. Rdc for damping can be added with a Holco or Caddock. Brake inductance in feeding stages and channels.
2. Tube Amps: Choke input sounds better than pi in SE, pi better in PP class A&AB no more than 5H per 100ma load. Toroids are superb, keep rdc minimum. caps x1/x3 fore/after in pi.
3. ss preamps: Pi is better. big caps medium H. Rdc less of a problem. EI cores closer to toroids. Best solution, one pi, then split RC filters per stage/channel
3. SS Amps: a) class A: heavy ripple so little mh low rdc, .5-.75 Ohm per A. heavy caps. x1/x2 for/after. b) class AB: double the mh cut in half the Rdc. caps x1/x3 for/after.
Hope you find my info usefull.
Thanx
Nick
To analog_sa
Forgot to answer the no choke question (contrary to RC I presume).
well all other things being equal the RC has a lighter tone with a bit brasher highs. I would use it instead of a cheapo choke. sounds faster and more airy without cost. use filmcaps up to 47uf in an RC to expand the air and smooth out the highs. Short of a Conrad Johnson sound. A good distributed choke PSU is more Lamm sound. I prefer balanced choke sound. is more organic especially in low levels.
To blank 527
I would not use em drop in. They must have a big RDC and steel sounds bad. But because you bought em as much as half a beer or 1/8 a white dove in Milkweg😉 try em out with disconnecting 1/3 the caps you now use. compare and decide.
Happy listening
Forgot to answer the no choke question (contrary to RC I presume).
well all other things being equal the RC has a lighter tone with a bit brasher highs. I would use it instead of a cheapo choke. sounds faster and more airy without cost. use filmcaps up to 47uf in an RC to expand the air and smooth out the highs. Short of a Conrad Johnson sound. A good distributed choke PSU is more Lamm sound. I prefer balanced choke sound. is more organic especially in low levels.
To blank 527
I would not use em drop in. They must have a big RDC and steel sounds bad. But because you bought em as much as half a beer or 1/8 a white dove in Milkweg😉 try em out with disconnecting 1/3 the caps you now use. compare and decide.
Happy listening
So the general view is, for use in Aleph 5 we ought to have 2 mH plus, air core, with DC resistance les than 1 ohm, right?
So like a secondary teansformer winding without any core, in chunky copper?
I still don't understand how an inductor core in a power supply can have effects on the amplifiers reproduction ranging from "open and airy" through "punchy" to "muddy".
So like a secondary teansformer winding without any core, in chunky copper?
I still don't understand how an inductor core in a power supply can have effects on the amplifiers reproduction ranging from "open and airy" through "punchy" to "muddy".
Nick
Very enlightening. Thanks. I've never seen a toroid choke but assume they're air-gapped. What brand do you use? Or are they custom made? Any ideas how to create the gap?
peter
Very enlightening. Thanks. I've never seen a toroid choke but assume they're air-gapped. What brand do you use? Or are they custom made? Any ideas how to create the gap?
peter
gaps
Hello again
Analog_sa
Mine are custom made by a local toroid firm in Athens. He cuts the core and puts a spacer. He uses italian toroid cores.
In preamps I use non gapped.
In page 2 of this thread there is a post about that and a url.
Bertie
Try em out, listen you will see (not with B&Ws 🙂 )
On the other hand if you dont find any differences in your system thats ok. spend on components that give you best bang for the buck. But experiment! thats the magic of DIY.
I will diminish now and go to the west...
Hello again
Analog_sa
Mine are custom made by a local toroid firm in Athens. He cuts the core and puts a spacer. He uses italian toroid cores.
In preamps I use non gapped.
In page 2 of this thread there is a post about that and a url.
Bertie
Try em out, listen you will see (not with B&Ws 🙂 )
On the other hand if you dont find any differences in your system thats ok. spend on components that give you best bang for the buck. But experiment! thats the magic of DIY.
I will diminish now and go to the west...
B & Ws??? you lost me.
I don't have B&W speakers myself, forgive me if this is not what you mean or if I've missed something.
I don't have B&W speakers myself, forgive me if this is not what you mean or if I've missed something.
4 Bertie
Listen & you will see is a marketing motto. Diminishing to the West is Tolkien (excuse my obscure humor).
Yes your estimation about the aircore should work.
Visit Musical fidelity site also. They champion a major cause for pi filters there.
Thanx
Nick
Listen & you will see is a marketing motto. Diminishing to the West is Tolkien (excuse my obscure humor).
Yes your estimation about the aircore should work.
Visit Musical fidelity site also. They champion a major cause for pi filters there.
Thanx
Nick
BARTOLUCCI gapped c cores
For analog_sa
Wanna try out something special and not so terribly expensive?
http://inthenet.sm/bartolucci/index.html
Beautyful sound and finish for your tubes. Chokes with magical balance. OPTs, ITs, and plate chokes too.
Happy tweaking
Nick
For analog_sa
Wanna try out something special and not so terribly expensive?
http://inthenet.sm/bartolucci/index.html
Beautyful sound and finish for your tubes. Chokes with magical balance. OPTs, ITs, and plate chokes too.
Happy tweaking
Nick
BrianGT said:
Nelson has described howto make good air-core inductors
for supply filtering in some of his amplifiers.
Such excellent inductors can be very, very large !!!
But nevertheless they are very goooood !!!!
Here is one that is the size of a FOOTBALL ( soccer ball )
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Enjoy 😎
Lineup
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