There were several good posts in this thread pointing out that a line cord cannot correct for miles of standard wiring. But they did not go far enough.
Does the super line cord correct for the standard copper PCB used?
Does the super line cord correct for the off the shelf copper wire used in the power transformer?
Does the super line cord correct for the standard wire used inside the speaker from the terminals to the speaker?
Does the super line cord correct for the off the shelf copper wire used to wind the crossover network?
Does the super line cord correct for the off the shelf copper wire used to wind the speaker?
Of course not! Because there is no correction needed. Now I realize that there are a few web sites that will lie to you and tell you they have super-duper special low noise copper crossover coils or whatever for true sonic clarity, but no legitimate manufacturer will tell you that. No professional recording studio will use this overpriced garbage.
And one last thing, if oxygen free, virgin, litz wound, platinum plated copper is needed. Why is it OK to use a circuit full of capacitors wound with recycled aluminum? And do not forget many of these capacitors are praised to high heaven on the “audiophile” and I use that term loosely, sites.
Does the super line cord correct for the standard copper PCB used?
Does the super line cord correct for the off the shelf copper wire used in the power transformer?
Does the super line cord correct for the standard wire used inside the speaker from the terminals to the speaker?
Does the super line cord correct for the off the shelf copper wire used to wind the crossover network?
Does the super line cord correct for the off the shelf copper wire used to wind the speaker?
Of course not! Because there is no correction needed. Now I realize that there are a few web sites that will lie to you and tell you they have super-duper special low noise copper crossover coils or whatever for true sonic clarity, but no legitimate manufacturer will tell you that. No professional recording studio will use this overpriced garbage.
And one last thing, if oxygen free, virgin, litz wound, platinum plated copper is needed. Why is it OK to use a circuit full of capacitors wound with recycled aluminum? And do not forget many of these capacitors are praised to high heaven on the “audiophile” and I use that term loosely, sites.
What it boils down to is, use materials for their intended purpose. Many of our advances, are space crap. So, you use exotic materials in space, to get as good a signal etc transfer as possible, and as reliable as possible. And doesn't change over time.
All else is jewelry. BUT, in every game, achieving that, is quite a ways up the beautiful engineering solution scale. And so what if you add a little bling? You don't say, I will ONLY add performance parts to my sportscar. Some are embellishment.
But, the sales shtick, where you just gotta wait and believe, when they finally gel, is bunk.
Oh, I am as one of my hats, a product designer, and even I am smart enough to know that just being good aint enough, you gotta look pretty.
All else is jewelry. BUT, in every game, achieving that, is quite a ways up the beautiful engineering solution scale. And so what if you add a little bling? You don't say, I will ONLY add performance parts to my sportscar. Some are embellishment.
But, the sales shtick, where you just gotta wait and believe, when they finally gel, is bunk.
Oh, I am as one of my hats, a product designer, and even I am smart enough to know that just being good aint enough, you gotta look pretty.
Besides the pseudo-skeptics here beating that straw man to flour, few if any manufacturers claim power cords rectify utility transmission line 'issues'.
Step 1: practice science, grab pen and paper and draw the ground relationships in a typical RCA hifi system. Early I gave a very simple, V=IR scenario in which power cables can be part of the signal return between connected single-ended devices, one which ironically makes no more assumptions than the G-Word paper lauded here. Yes, it's possible and yes it's avoidable.
“Depends on the definition of 'wrong'. Take two pieces of gear that tie signal ground directly to the chassis and potentially to AC third wire ground -depending on national safety standards - and connect them with the usual 24-26 gauge interconnect and it's possible the bulk audio signal return current is through the lower impedance, larger gauge power cords.”
“Definitional quibbles aside, Hypex's 'floating balanced' architecture or transformers eliminate this possibility.”
It is difficult to follow your vague double talk. But you seem to be saying that the fix for ground loops is to use a power cord with a very thin ground wire less than 26 gauge so the signal return current does not go through a lower impedance path to earth ground. This would certainly be unsafe and against all wiring codes. The ground wire must carry enough current to quickly trip the circuit breakers without burning up, and there are standards to define the gauge of the ground wire.
As for, Hypex's 'floating balanced' architecture or transformers, nothing magical here. The floating balanced uses the industry standard differential driver and the common 3 pin XLR connector that all pro audio manufactures use and the recording studios use as standard equipment. There are also ground loop breakers for standard RCA connectors that are transformers, once again nothing magical here.
Important to note here that 3 pin XLR connectors or ground breaker transformers do not use oxygen free copper or litz wire or any other magical audio fix. And the operation of these devices is not enhanced by magic power cords and or goof ball silver plated, de-oxygenated, magic wire.
In short, Hypex is a legitimate audio manufacture that has not and will never recommend any magical line cord or interconnect cable to fix or enhance audio.
“Definitional quibbles aside, Hypex's 'floating balanced' architecture or transformers eliminate this possibility.”
It is difficult to follow your vague double talk. But you seem to be saying that the fix for ground loops is to use a power cord with a very thin ground wire less than 26 gauge so the signal return current does not go through a lower impedance path to earth ground. This would certainly be unsafe and against all wiring codes. The ground wire must carry enough current to quickly trip the circuit breakers without burning up, and there are standards to define the gauge of the ground wire.
As for, Hypex's 'floating balanced' architecture or transformers, nothing magical here. The floating balanced uses the industry standard differential driver and the common 3 pin XLR connector that all pro audio manufactures use and the recording studios use as standard equipment. There are also ground loop breakers for standard RCA connectors that are transformers, once again nothing magical here.
Important to note here that 3 pin XLR connectors or ground breaker transformers do not use oxygen free copper or litz wire or any other magical audio fix. And the operation of these devices is not enhanced by magic power cords and or goof ball silver plated, de-oxygenated, magic wire.
In short, Hypex is a legitimate audio manufacture that has not and will never recommend any magical line cord or interconnect cable to fix or enhance audio.
V=IR is double talk? Talk about mystical thinking, no wonder you find it difficult to follow and dismiss the solution suggested.
Not magic but also far from an industry standard. Differential != floating. The vast bulk of active balanced interconnections directly reference ground. That's why Hypex's chosen architecture, which doesn't, is a good solution.
Let’s see if I can follow your double talk, V= IR, therefore oxygen free, litz, magic wire = no ground loops.
I tried to follow your calculations to prove this but I could not. Oh wait you have no calculations! Well I am sure that was an oversight on your part. Please post the V = IR math to prove this so we can learn and help you sing the praises of magic wire.
Also here is a PDF from Hypex audio, the quote taken from the bottom of page 1.
“In the past, confused designers believed that pin 1 was an audio connection. So they wired it to the
circuit board. This caused lots of problems. Fortunately, manufacturers have largely cleaned up their
act in the past 20 years. Thanks to the hard work of the AES48 working group and outspoken manu-
facturers like Rane, pin 1 problems have been eliminated.”
That’s right, the 3 pin XLR has been working fine for 20 years. And NO Hypex was not the one who solved the problem; they are just one of the many that are using the fix. Or in other words your supposed problem is imaginary.
I tried to follow your calculations to prove this but I could not. Oh wait you have no calculations! Well I am sure that was an oversight on your part. Please post the V = IR math to prove this so we can learn and help you sing the praises of magic wire.
Also here is a PDF from Hypex audio, the quote taken from the bottom of page 1.
“In the past, confused designers believed that pin 1 was an audio connection. So they wired it to the
circuit board. This caused lots of problems. Fortunately, manufacturers have largely cleaned up their
act in the past 20 years. Thanks to the hard work of the AES48 working group and outspoken manu-
facturers like Rane, pin 1 problems have been eliminated.”
That’s right, the 3 pin XLR has been working fine for 20 years. And NO Hypex was not the one who solved the problem; they are just one of the many that are using the fix. Or in other words your supposed problem is imaginary.
You're helpfully illustrating some of the anti-scientific behaviours I had in mind. I didn't write anything about cable composition, those are straw men again, along with jumping to conclusions, appealing to the crowd.... the gift that just keeps on giving.
The math is trivial, interconnects are typically ~24 gauge and often less, power cords ~16 gauge. If both are hard connected to circuit grounds in single-ended stereo systems they're effectively two dissimilar resistors in parallel. That's not difficult 'math'.
I can't make much of the remaining non-sequiturs you posted (thanks again), which don't appear to demonstrate understanding of the difference between true floating inputs and those referenced to ground. While their app note remains a great practical reference, Rane, at best a mid-tier manufacturer of semi-pro doo-dads, 'cleaned up' the industry? No. While a great design talent, Bruno's knowledge of common studio practice doesn't appear rooted in significant experience.
"Originally Posted by DF96 
If changing the power cord is genuinely audible then there is something wrong with either the equipment or the power cord...... Almost all mid-priced things get it right."
You are the one that made the claim that fancy line cords will fix ground loops. Show the math.
You are the one that brought up the interaction of fancy line cords and interconnects. Show the math.
You are the one that said V = IR explains how this fix works. Show the math.
You have a lot to prove. Show the math.
You have claimed yet again that V = IR but are still unable to show any math. I am not going to let you weasel out of this. Show the math!
You also brought up Hypex as one of the few audio manufactures that uses the differential signals and when confronted with the documentation from Hypex showing this is not true you discount your own source.
And by the way, show the math on how fancy line cords corrects for ground loops.
P.S.
Show the math.
If changing the power cord is genuinely audible then there is something wrong with either the equipment or the power cord...... Almost all mid-priced things get it right."You are the one that made the claim that fancy line cords will fix ground loops. Show the math.
You are the one that brought up the interaction of fancy line cords and interconnects. Show the math.
You are the one that said V = IR explains how this fix works. Show the math.
You have a lot to prove. Show the math.
You have claimed yet again that V = IR but are still unable to show any math. I am not going to let you weasel out of this. Show the math!
You also brought up Hypex as one of the few audio manufactures that uses the differential signals and when confronted with the documentation from Hypex showing this is not true you discount your own source.
And by the way, show the math on how fancy line cords corrects for ground loops.
P.S.
Show the math.
The cable between the mains socket outlet and the equipment that needs mains power is just a simple 2, or 3, core copper clad in two layers of insulation.
Well it's not that simple. That cable pair (excluding the PE) has an impedance. That impedance can have a filtering effect on the current passing to the equipment.
The biggest filtering effect will be at the higher harmonic frequencies and at the higher interference frequencies.
A cable that is pure resistance and has zero reactive contibution cannot filter unless some other reactive component is installed in the equipment.
But that argument when reversed implies that the reactive impedance of the cable can have a filtering effect, even when there is no added reactive component in the equipment.
All the foregoing should indicate that changes in the proportions of resistance and capacitance and inductance of the mains cable can have different filtering effects on the higher frequencies included with the mains fundamental that comes to our equipment.
It's the different reactive parameters of the cables that can change what is delivered to our mains powered equipment.
Sometimes those differences will be audible.
Even when it is not audible, it will usually be measureable. Measurements will reveal much.
Maybe that's why many cable suppliers existing in the exotic priced end of the market do not include data. It would show their cable to be inferior to "ordinary" cable with "ordinary" reactive cable parameters.
Well it's not that simple. That cable pair (excluding the PE) has an impedance. That impedance can have a filtering effect on the current passing to the equipment.
The biggest filtering effect will be at the higher harmonic frequencies and at the higher interference frequencies.
A cable that is pure resistance and has zero reactive contibution cannot filter unless some other reactive component is installed in the equipment.
But that argument when reversed implies that the reactive impedance of the cable can have a filtering effect, even when there is no added reactive component in the equipment.
All the foregoing should indicate that changes in the proportions of resistance and capacitance and inductance of the mains cable can have different filtering effects on the higher frequencies included with the mains fundamental that comes to our equipment.
It's the different reactive parameters of the cables that can change what is delivered to our mains powered equipment.
Sometimes those differences will be audible.
Even when it is not audible, it will usually be measureable. Measurements will reveal much.
Maybe that's why many cable suppliers existing in the exotic priced end of the market do not include data. It would show their cable to be inferior to "ordinary" cable with "ordinary" reactive cable parameters.
Last edited:
'Powerbob', anti-scientific behaviour is a vey mild descriptor for your latest tirade.
Quote one instance where rdf has promoted the use of 'fancy line cords' as you so love to put it. Because of your inability to follow or demonstrate logical thought you have become totally reliant on the use of bombast and straw men to support your world view. Sad.
Quote one instance where rdf has promoted the use of 'fancy line cords' as you so love to put it. Because of your inability to follow or demonstrate logical thought you have become totally reliant on the use of bombast and straw men to support your world view. Sad.
Last edited:
All as true as I can determine without proof. Your answer wins the internet. BUT, do we need to test to stumble upon the right secret formula? Or is steady testing likely to lead to progress? Or CAN WE PREDICT a transparent wire?
This is CRUCIAL, as we are tinkerers. So, can DIYers rival the bigs?
This brings up a good point, maybe only the top threeish mfgs. actually test and develop their products. Maybe it is costume jewelry, instead of tiaras. Ebay guys don't test and develop. YOU likely cant. Does Cardas? Who else?
Yes, it is true that making claims that detailed, rational and reality based is not required because of the massive gullibility of the audiphiles who waste the big bucks this way.
If one were scientifically oriented, a natural question might be "By what means do these products do what they say other than the placebo effect".
That leads one to hypothesize that power cords address power line issues.
The following comes from the first power cord manufacturer site that google presented me with:
Why Power Cords Make a Difference
Misconception #3: There is up to a hundred feet of wire in the walls, so the last 6 feet of power cord can't possibly make any difference.
Answer: “The power cord is not the last 6 feet, it is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. As stated in #1 the local current and electromagnetic effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component.”
Misconception #4: There is a tremendous amount of electrical interference and EMI coming from outside the home that we need to protect our equipment from. This implies that we need some sort of power conditioner or filter to protect the equipment.
Answer: “Most of the EMI that affects the audio quality of a system is generated by the audio components themselves. Electromagnetic waves that traveling through space dissipate in power at the square of the distance from the source. Further, very high frequencies that propagate through the power circuit do not survive for long. Power lines present a high impedance to MHz and GHz signals due to the relatively high inductance of power lines.
A primary source of audible sonic degradation is caused by the power supplies in our audio/video components. Most components use FWBR (full wave bridge rectifier) power supplies that generate an incredible amount of transient noise when the rectifiers switch off. The design of a power cable can significantly affect the reactance of these signals within the power supply. The power cable is effectively part of the primary winding of the power transformer. The transition between the various metals used in a power cable and its connectors can cause electromagnetic reflections and diode-like rectification of the noise impulses as they propagate away from the power supply. If the power cable presents a high impedance to these signals they will be reflected back into the power supply where they will intermodulate, thus increasing the high frequency noise levels of the component. Most power supply filters are ineffective at blocking very high frequency noise components and much of it is passed through to the DC rails. The sonic effects of this include: high background noise levels, blurred or slurred transients and a general lack of clarity and purity of the sound or visual image.”
A completely different take, and one that makes me wonder why people worry about power cords at all with all that alleged badness happening inside the box.
Mach1 you have lost, zero proof has been shown that fancy line cords (Teflon, silver copper braid, litz wire, See post #1) work better than a standard line cord and can solve round loop problems.
Please explain to us why asking for the simple math of V = IR RDF keeps claiming is unscientific.
Please explain to us why showing white papers from accredited engineers is unscientific.
Please explain to us why Teflon, silver copper braid, litz wire, is not fancy wire.
Please explain to us why asking for the simple math of V = IR RDF keeps claiming is unscientific.
Please explain to us why showing white papers from accredited engineers is unscientific.
Please explain to us why Teflon, silver copper braid, litz wire, is not fancy wire.
I was scratching my head earlier when you made comments about the scientific, anti-scientific folk, but I now know what you mean. IIRC, powerbob just about got banned a few months ago for asking something relatively simple and, upon getting straightforward answers, commenced to flame everyone who responded.
IOW, not worth the effort.
You're done. Most here know how to calculate currents through resistors, the demands for a demonstration are meaningless. Beside transparent false representations about what I've posted, brilliantly indicative of the poor reasoning that unfortunately masquerades as scientific on public forums, you still apparently don't understand there is a difference between differential and floating.
On behalf of those who really care about science as more than another team sport, please, please, please stop defending science.
The best way for someone to get convinced or not if power cables make a difference, is to try one for a free trial on his system. Period. Stop theorizing and do some practice.
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
Forget the Physics, think about the practical side:
I suspect it helps to have a very good and solid connector on both ends since many folk like to disconnect their power cords by pulling on the wire instead of the connector.
It also helps to choose a colour with good WAF
In N.A. the mains plugs are usually cheap crap with thin copper blades, sometimes without an Earth wire. However, the British plugs are solid bars of copper and always contain an Earth wire. So buying a good quality plug with solid blades makes for a more pleasing product.
Cables should be flexible; stiff wires make it harder to position equipment close to the wall and bending forces put strain on the IEC connector at the back of the equipment
I suspect it helps to have a very good and solid connector on both ends since many folk like to disconnect their power cords by pulling on the wire instead of the connector.
It also helps to choose a colour with good WAF
In N.A. the mains plugs are usually cheap crap with thin copper blades, sometimes without an Earth wire. However, the British plugs are solid bars of copper and always contain an Earth wire. So buying a good quality plug with solid blades makes for a more pleasing product.
Cables should be flexible; stiff wires make it harder to position equipment close to the wall and bending forces put strain on the IEC connector at the back of the equipment
Yeah, but what if we don't want to pay 850 per cord? What if we want to MIMIC the 850 dollar cord for peanuts?
I guess you could initially prove to yourself, that a cord CAN make a difference. Then make your own, knowing you are not wasting all your efforts.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.