Hi,
I can't recall anyone claiming such thing in this thread....
If anyone wants to experiment with different PCs, all it takes is some elbow grease, not necessarily money.
Cheers,😉
I can't recall anyone claiming such thing in this thread....
If anyone wants to experiment with different PCs, all it takes is some elbow grease, not necessarily money.
Cheers,😉
a hevier gauge PC implies higher cost, some even advocate use of hospital grade PC, that is why i posted this thread, to get your insights....
DrG said:
That might just be some definitional differences in frank's use of "morons" or "rude" and "uneducated". By "uneducated", Frank may mean those who refuse to make baseless claims and prefer to rely on science and scientific methods.
In that sense, I consider Frank very "educated" in that regard.
tom1356 said:
I thought so to. By the length of that profession, there must be a lot of science and truth to fortune telling.
john curl said:
John: I have no doubt that you heard a difference, and I am an absolute believer in that cables make a difference.
The key is can we hear the difference? I don't know how your experiment was designed and conducted, and I can attest from my personal experience that I have heard things that others fail to, in more than one ocassion and vice versa. It is my belief that a true scientific approach should be adopted before we can conclusively say that there is an audible difference.
I would always go back to the tube vs. ss test that Dr. Leach links from his site. If the golden ears couldn't hear a SS amp from a tube amp, consistently and statistically significantly, I doubt how we can hear power cords.
But who am I to say that some of us don't have supernatural hearings?
Stax Lambda
Mr. Curl, aren't your experiences with cords little bit focused ? May you right scientitific to describe ?
Mr. Curl, aren't your experiences with cords little bit focused ? May you right scientitific to describe ?
Hi,
Hearing is very much a cerebral process, nothing supernatural about it; people are all different, hence perceive differently.
I would never, ever blame anyone for not hearing what others do but does that mean it's not there?
Shouting, Prove it! , Prove it! is not going to produce any proof of it.
On one hand you're an absolute believer and on the other you doubt you can actually hear it?
Now that's a religious way of belief if there ever was one, for sure.
Contradictio in terminis or just kissing someone's behind? Which is it going to be?
Oh dear,
Hearing is very much a cerebral process, nothing supernatural about it; people are all different, hence perceive differently.
I would never, ever blame anyone for not hearing what others do but does that mean it's not there?
Shouting, Prove it! , Prove it! is not going to produce any proof of it.
On one hand you're an absolute believer and on the other you doubt you can actually hear it?
Now that's a religious way of belief if there ever was one, for sure.
Contradictio in terminis or just kissing someone's behind? Which is it going to be?
Oh dear,
DrG said:
My comment was to apologise for all the other South Africans - I find your reply including my name to be offensive and requiring an apology.
Eric.
Touchè, Eric. Point noted. Apology hereby offered. That line you quote didn't come out quite as intended. Sorry.
Gotta read these things before hitting "send"...
Gotta read these things before hitting "send"...
Ok, this is what I tried. We have a builder of tube amps down here by the name of Gunter Steinhart. I believe his amps are slowly gaining a foothold in the UK but most of you have probably not heard of them.
Now Gunter used to make up his own "kettle"- type power cords with two supposedly superior conductors pulled through a clear PVC tube - looked like fishtank tubing. I recall one Saturday at the hi-fi shop I worked at part-time. I tried this cord and A/B compared it in an admittedly very unscientific way to a conventional one-piece-moulded cheapie belonging to a Rotel amp. No-one there could hear a difference. And again no difference with the fancy cord on the Rotel. I went through a similar exercise at home on my own diy hybrid amp. I couldn't hear anything different.
Now perhaps millwood has it right. Perhaps there is some teeny difference on an electron-level. But if people cannot hear this difference then there might as well be none. And then there is the seriously-flawed test apparatus to consider, viz human hearing and the brain. The frequency response of our ears is anything but flat. And the human brain is a sponge for suggestion. Which means that ONLY a properly-conducted double-blind test might explain the inexplicable or confirm the strongly suspected.
In which case there may be numerous uneducated dolts just like myself...
From science from of view your statement has the same weight as opinion others whose say that they hear differences. It proves nothing. Very poor experiment.
Regards,
Okay, show us THD, RMS or whatever other figures you like. I'm confident even if these figures exist, you can't hear them. Saying you can hear a power cord through headphones is like saying you can feel the global warming that a farting mouse causes.
Solid Snake said:
That's basically what some forum members are claiming.
Not that it is impossible, it is just very improbable.
fdegrove said:
On one hand you're an absolute believer and on the other you doubt you can actually hear it?
Now that's a religious way of belief if there ever was one, for sure.
Contradictio in terminis or just kissing someone's behind? Which is it going to be?
Oh dear,
Well, it looks like my response to Frank on this top was promptly lost in the cyber space. But I thought it helps Frank's reading comprehension if it is pointed out that not all differences are audible.
At least for the rest of us who aren't fortunate enough to possess super-natural hearing.
Solid snake, are you calling me a liar or a fool? My listening tests, using the best equipment available at the time, often gives me insight. I use this insight to design better audio equipment. This gives me A ratings in listening contests from audio reviewers. This is what I do for a living. What do you do?
john curl said:
here is my take on this, John. It is maybe too strong a statement to say that one cannot hear a power cord. There is always that possibility, however remote and improbable.
However, there is a difference between what we heard and what we think we heard. our minds can play a lot of tricks, not only on our hearing but on our vision as well. and sometimes we hear things that aren't there - I do it plenty of times.
The problem with non-scientific experiments (I am not sure how yours were set up so I am not implying that yours weren't scientific) is that we really cannot distinguish between what we hear and what we think we hear.
Only a scientific test, based on either equipment or human hearing, be it double blind or not, is the only way to how accurate some of our claims are.
The fact that we haven't found one single individual (or golden ear) who could pass such a test for so long a period of time while so many of those claims have been made by so many people leads me to be suspicious.
It is kind of like a competitor of yours coming out stating that his product is audibly superior to your but cannot back it up with either measurements or tests / reliable reviews, and relies solely on his hearing (which could be true), wouldn't you be suspicious as well?
Probably take up space at some university somewhere. That really has credibilty to me. [joke]
(I think it is time for more anger management seminars..........)
Jocko
(I think it is time for more anger management seminars..........)
Jocko
Hi,
Thanks for the clarification...
It just seemed odd to me as I have difficulty understanding why someone as much in the measurement camp as yourself would claim measured yet inaudible differences.
BTW, incidentally, just like John Curl, I too used a Stax Lambda Pro when I was a professional.
It's an invaluable instrument together with a very good recording device.
Cheers,😉
Thanks for the clarification...
It just seemed odd to me as I have difficulty understanding why someone as much in the measurement camp as yourself would claim measured yet inaudible differences.
BTW, incidentally, just like John Curl, I too used a Stax Lambda Pro when I was a professional.
It's an invaluable instrument together with a very good recording device.
Cheers,😉
Neither I think. He's pointing out the limitations of audible detectability we all have as humans and the extreme associated UNlikelihood that any femto/atto/unmeasurable changes induced by a new PC will/could be audible, if they exist at all.
And I really don't think that anybody is drawing your qualifications or achievements into question, John. But we aren't comparing audio equipment here. In fact, as EE_Mark pointed out pages ago, a well-designed amp/system with competent power supplies would be LEAST likely to benefit audibly from a miracle-wire PC.
Which paradoxically and uniquely handicaps you John, because rather than offering much scope for audible improvement, your system is likely to be pretty much optimized already. And therefore presumably "resistant" to piddly alterations in your PC's Unless you happen to have a "mule" amp with 1uF decoupling caps, germanium diodes and underspecced transformers hooked up with telephone wire, specifically to test which PC is best for your next design. Which I doubt. And if I'm correct in this it could be viewed as strong evidence to the contrary of your argument, John. That is to say, if someone of the stature of John Curl does not audition PC's then the rest of us mortal plebs can safely assume that any inferred/alleged improvements are either (a) inaudible, (b) nonexistent or (c) otherwise irrelevant.
QED?
It is unfortunate that you give the human ear-brain combination so little credit. I find it useful to pay attention to details, including power cords. I have heard differences both in my personal system, and in very expensive audio systems owned by friends and associates. Personally, I wish there were no differences in power cords. I have to design the rest of the electronics in the audio system, and have enough to concern myself with, without including power cords, BUT hearing is believing.
My situation may be different from many others. You see, I actually have to produce successful audio products, not just claim that they are essentially the same (under blind conditions of course), or that we practically know everything from undergraduate college physics/engineering to optimize any audio design.
I prefer to stay ahead of the mid-fi pack.
My situation may be different from many others. You see, I actually have to produce successful audio products, not just claim that they are essentially the same (under blind conditions of course), or that we practically know everything from undergraduate college physics/engineering to optimize any audio design.
I prefer to stay ahead of the mid-fi pack.
Or fraud. Or bunco.
Let's talk about your car. It's saying, "Wash me, please." Well, if you're Mr. Common Sense, you won't believe me when I tell you that I've got an evelope which will wash your car as you drive at home to work. No, friends, this isn't like the vibrating clocks. No zizzing and dripping like...
fdegrove said:
There is one other thing I can help you out too. First of all, I said "difference" not "measured difference". Please re-read what I wrote to be clear on this.
2ndly, there a plenty examples of measurable yet unaudible differences, like sub micro % THD, or 0.0001 variance in gain, 🙂
Of course, there are people with supernatural hearings that can hear anything and everything, including inaudible things, 🙂
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