Eva said:Since in audio equipment mains is being rectified at its peaks, power is drawn only during 33% of time
In the other 66% of time power line cord and power transformers doesn´t form part of the audio equipment as they are being isolated from the rest of the circuit by very high impedances of reverse biased diodes
Thereby, power line cord and power transformers aren´t in the circuit the majority of the time
It's wonderful to be able to hear as 'better clarity' something that is switched in and out of the audio circuits 100..120 times a second, isn´t it?
Here's a set of plots which illustrate that rather well:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The "AC Current" waveform illustrates when the transformer and all the other upstream stuff is in the circuit which corresponds to the flat portion of the AC mains voltage.
se
How about magic mains wiring for your house?
Perhaps magic power lines for your city?
Magic electric power company, magic high-voltage transformers and lines, magic power plants, magic fuses, magic power plugs ...
🙂
Perhaps magic power lines for your city?
Magic electric power company, magic high-voltage transformers and lines, magic power plants, magic fuses, magic power plugs ...
🙂
Re: Re: In For A penny, In For A Pound..............
Consider that during varying amplifier output, varying power will be drawn from the mains, and therefore varying charging duty cycle.
Also consider that different rectifier diodes can make sonic differences.
Different cable LCR characteristics would influence parasitic ringing conditions in the power supply, and due to non perfect amplifier PSRR and non perfect earthing arrangements, this could cause audible changes.
I do not see this an impossibilty.
Eric.
No, I mean open mindedness versus closed mindedness.Steve Eddy said:
Consider that during varying amplifier output, varying power will be drawn from the mains, and therefore varying charging duty cycle.
Also consider that different rectifier diodes can make sonic differences.
Different cable LCR characteristics would influence parasitic ringing conditions in the power supply, and due to non perfect amplifier PSRR and non perfect earthing arrangements, this could cause audible changes.
I do not see this an impossibilty.
Eric.
Of course, it causes audible changes at 100 or 120Hz
This is called 'Humm', isn´t it familiar?
In bad designs [amplifier or signal circuits with ground loops or induction problemas] or with long mains wiring togheter with unbalanced signal wiring [usually in PA or disco applications] you can hear clearly this hum for an instant when signal amplitude decreases sharply [no longer masking the humm] and capacitors are still charging, for example, when somedoby talking at the mic ends a phrase
This is called 'Humm', isn´t it familiar?
In bad designs [amplifier or signal circuits with ground loops or induction problemas] or with long mains wiring togheter with unbalanced signal wiring [usually in PA or disco applications] you can hear clearly this hum for an instant when signal amplitude decreases sharply [no longer masking the humm] and capacitors are still charging, for example, when somedoby talking at the mic ends a phrase
Eva said:
Now...if a high power signal is being reproduced on one of those "bad" designs, and that hum is being made by the draw to recharge...how far down is that hum...and, is that hum capable of "blurring" the soundstage? And how does one perceive it, if the bank is recharged quickly enough that the hum is only there when the bass is?
What does it look like?? A haversine that is modulated by the power envelope of the audio?
I eliminated my power cord problems in a 500 seat venue, by running my unbalanced, 100 foot line levels bundled tightly with the source rack power cord, using the same AC outlet for the amp and the mixer..I couldn't use the distributed AC of the building, due to HVAC and 5 megawatt, 12 phase power supplies nearby. So I kept the signal loop very closely bound to the power cord, to keep the loop area small. No pops, clicks, nothing.
Cheers, John
A mind that is always open is an encouragement for people to throw all kinds of garbage in there.
Not impossible, certainly, but given the negative measurements that anyone can repeat and the total lack of proper listening tests to confirm the unlikely claims, let's say "highly unlikely."
i have a question, what can a cd player with a traffo probably having a ga.30 or so primary winding wire profit from using a ga14 power cord? the owner claims hearing a difference....
joan2 said:
And then, you can find other people who say it makes at lot
of difference to change your power cords, but you should
not change the one to the CD player.
There's a lot of people hearing things, but they do hear
different things. Maybe they actually do hear it, and it
it is a matter of subjective taste, or they are imagining
different things. I don't know and I don't see how I could
possibly know either. It is interesting, though, that they all
want us to trust them at believe what they hear, but they
do not want us to believe the same things. It is a bit like
religion, some say we should believe in the Christian God,
some say we should believe in Allah, etc. etc. They are all
convinced, but of different things. (No disrespect at any
religion or any religious individual intended. I just find the
analogy appropriate).
hi christer,
you were right, i thought this whole deal was a joke, until they called me names.....they were passionately serious....i guess some people are making a lot of money out of this....there are audiophiles who easily succumb to suggestions, just like the story of "the emperor's clothes" that to be called an audiophile you have to see the emperor wearing fine clothes, when in reality he is stark naked!!!!
you were right, i thought this whole deal was a joke, until they called me names.....they were passionately serious....i guess some people are making a lot of money out of this....there are audiophiles who easily succumb to suggestions, just like the story of "the emperor's clothes" that to be called an audiophile you have to see the emperor wearing fine clothes, when in reality he is stark naked!!!!
I am not claiming they don't hear these differences or that it
is impossible, but in many cases I do find it hard to believe
anyone can hear a difference. I see no problem with two
power cords of different physical build making a slight
difference in theory. One could probably prove them to
do so, with much effort, math and theory. However, if
such a difference is even remotely close to the measurement
or audibility threshold is another matter.
is impossible, but in many cases I do find it hard to believe
anyone can hear a difference. I see no problem with two
power cords of different physical build making a slight
difference in theory. One could probably prove them to
do so, with much effort, math and theory. However, if
such a difference is even remotely close to the measurement
or audibility threshold is another matter.
"However, if such a difference is even remotely close to the measurement or audibility threshold is another matter."
Take a close listen on nearfield monitors for yourself and you may just be surprised.
Eric.
Take a close listen on nearfield monitors for yourself and you may just be surprised.
Eric.
mrfeedback said:
what did you hear when you listen to nearfield monitors? and what makes you think the effect of cabling is more pronounced on nearfield monitors?
Take a close listen on nearfield monitors for yourself ..........
Ummm, the nearfield monitors.
Ummm, because the monitors are closer.
Eric.
millwood said:
Ummm, the nearfield monitors.
Ummm, because the monitors are closer.
Eric.
www.audioholics.com - They have a small article on cable break in. There's a quote from a magazine at the end that I found quite interesting.
Here's my thoughts on cable break in: I have never seen a cable being broken in at the power electronics research group I help out with. They have projects ranging from lower power (10W) all the way up to hundreds of kilowatts. You would think if there were real benefits (or any benefits) from cable break in, they would adhere to those steps.
My thoughts on upgrading power cables: At least in the US, you have anywhere from a couple miles to hundreds of miles of transmission lines that lose power and introduce noice into the signal. What difference will 6 feet make??
These are my 2 cents. I have never completed an ABX test for either one of these theories, but I am going on a hunch with a little scientific background.
PS - Glad this isn't audio asylum! I would have been banned for saying "ABX test" 😉
Here's my thoughts on cable break in: I have never seen a cable being broken in at the power electronics research group I help out with. They have projects ranging from lower power (10W) all the way up to hundreds of kilowatts. You would think if there were real benefits (or any benefits) from cable break in, they would adhere to those steps.
My thoughts on upgrading power cables: At least in the US, you have anywhere from a couple miles to hundreds of miles of transmission lines that lose power and introduce noice into the signal. What difference will 6 feet make??
These are my 2 cents. I have never completed an ABX test for either one of these theories, but I am going on a hunch with a little scientific background.
PS - Glad this isn't audio asylum! I would have been banned for saying "ABX test" 😉
bknauss said:
That's not the only thing that get's you banned there..
RE: 6 feet....
Your audio system ground is referenced there..for safety reasons, but still, it's there..
Not hundreds of miles away..
Cheers, John
Power Cord Break-In
There is no such thing as "breaking in" a wire. A power cord with heavier wires will drop less than a power cord with thinner wires, but unless you're pulling a lot of currentthe difference will be negligable. If your amp has any decent regulation the difference will be negligable anyway. Keep in mind the power cord connects to an outlet and then goes through the wiring in your house and to the transformer on the street, none of which you have any control over. An amp has regulation and filtering on the critical areas inside so that noise and drops from the line shouldn't cause problems.
There is no such thing as "breaking in" a wire. A power cord with heavier wires will drop less than a power cord with thinner wires, but unless you're pulling a lot of currentthe difference will be negligable. If your amp has any decent regulation the difference will be negligable anyway. Keep in mind the power cord connects to an outlet and then goes through the wiring in your house and to the transformer on the street, none of which you have any control over. An amp has regulation and filtering on the critical areas inside so that noise and drops from the line shouldn't cause problems.
Noise Invades And Pervades........
Mark, you should not let that EE brainwashing get in the way of your road to enlightenment.
What you are saying is essentially correct, but is not the whole truth.
Eric.
Mark, you should not let that EE brainwashing get in the way of your road to enlightenment.
What you are saying is essentially correct, but is not the whole truth.
Eric.
Power Cord break-in
I'm actually going by my decades of experience in audio. I've built all my own amps and signal processors and for years ran a sound reinforcement company on the side while for the last 23 I've designed electronics for NASA spacecraft and have been involved in testing electronics and systrem integration for airborne imaging systems and infrared imaging systems. Before that I worked in a metrology lab repairing high end test equipment and I also spent a year traveling to all the airports and long distance radar sites in California calibrating control tower equipment, radar, and instrument landing systems for the FAA. If I'm missing something on the subject of power cord break-in please enlighten me. At NASA, with test equipment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, we use regular power cords. Tektronix and Agilent send out regular power cords when you purchase equipment from them. Audio Precision company, a spinoff form Tektronix employees, uses standard power cords. Audio equipment is senstive to power line fluctuations and noise but again, since you have no control over the power coming to your house, the power cord, as long as it is heavy wire, is not a factor in a decently designed amp. Please correct me in detail if I'm missing something. I'd love to be enlightened.
I'm actually going by my decades of experience in audio. I've built all my own amps and signal processors and for years ran a sound reinforcement company on the side while for the last 23 I've designed electronics for NASA spacecraft and have been involved in testing electronics and systrem integration for airborne imaging systems and infrared imaging systems. Before that I worked in a metrology lab repairing high end test equipment and I also spent a year traveling to all the airports and long distance radar sites in California calibrating control tower equipment, radar, and instrument landing systems for the FAA. If I'm missing something on the subject of power cord break-in please enlighten me. At NASA, with test equipment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, we use regular power cords. Tektronix and Agilent send out regular power cords when you purchase equipment from them. Audio Precision company, a spinoff form Tektronix employees, uses standard power cords. Audio equipment is senstive to power line fluctuations and noise but again, since you have no control over the power coming to your house, the power cord, as long as it is heavy wire, is not a factor in a decently designed amp. Please correct me in detail if I'm missing something. I'd love to be enlightened.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.