One first thing to check is power polarity when comparing power leads - this can and does make a sonic difference.
My CDP has a Fig-8 standard power lead input socket.
I hear differences between two Fig-8 power leads when fitted in the same power polarity - one has grey insulation and the other has black insulation.
I have also tried two different sounding interconnects in series with an RCA joiner in between.
The sound of the interconnect nearest the load (pre-amp input socket) dominated.
The equipment power lead is the last in a long chain from the power station, and based on the above paragraph, would be expected to influence.
In practice, I find that power leads can and do influence equipment sounds.
Eric.
My CDP has a Fig-8 standard power lead input socket.
I hear differences between two Fig-8 power leads when fitted in the same power polarity - one has grey insulation and the other has black insulation.
I have also tried two different sounding interconnects in series with an RCA joiner in between.
The sound of the interconnect nearest the load (pre-amp input socket) dominated.
The equipment power lead is the last in a long chain from the power station, and based on the above paragraph, would be expected to influence.
In practice, I find that power leads can and do influence equipment sounds.
Eric.
I never said power cord have NO influence, I was talking about the break in part, and what was implied by the title starter, that someohow we were missing out on something by not doing it.
Here is the equation I use IMHO works well 😉
Sound= C+A0+A1^2+...........An^N with n->infinity
where C,N=integers and A<1
I rate "power cord break in" as pretty close to An^N where An is
an infinetesimally small number and N is an infinitely large number.
C = listener, how are the sinus? How much you had to drink?
How many audio shows have been visited in the past 3 years, how many setups sounded better than yours? When I go I always find a couple that sound better than mine and that pushes me to do better.
A0 = speakers, power amp power rating, CD or vinyl recording quality.
A1 = preamp, riaa, CD player, BAL/SE (SE is for single ended)
A2 = type of amp (tube or SS)
A3 = class A, AB, B, fine-tuning PS, components selection.
A4 = properly selected interconnects and power cables
A5....An = whatever else
My point, if I have one, is that too many people have no idea of how their system sound and they are chasing wild geese while they should be worried about optimizing much more important parts of their sytems.
Here is the equation I use IMHO works well 😉
Sound= C+A0+A1^2+...........An^N with n->infinity
where C,N=integers and A<1
I rate "power cord break in" as pretty close to An^N where An is
an infinetesimally small number and N is an infinitely large number.
C = listener, how are the sinus? How much you had to drink?
How many audio shows have been visited in the past 3 years, how many setups sounded better than yours? When I go I always find a couple that sound better than mine and that pushes me to do better.
A0 = speakers, power amp power rating, CD or vinyl recording quality.
A1 = preamp, riaa, CD player, BAL/SE (SE is for single ended)
A2 = type of amp (tube or SS)
A3 = class A, AB, B, fine-tuning PS, components selection.
A4 = properly selected interconnects and power cables
A5....An = whatever else
My point, if I have one, is that too many people have no idea of how their system sound and they are chasing wild geese while they should be worried about optimizing much more important parts of their sytems.
"I never said power cord have NO influence, I was talking about the break in part, and what was implied by the title starter, that someohow we were missing out on something by not doing it."
I have found that leads and electronics "break-in" when exposed to large amplitude transients.
I have encountered a strange effect when running up newly blanket resoldered amplifiers.
The manifestation of this is that when running up for the first time, the sound is constricted/wrong until clipping is achieved.
There is an audible change, and thereafter the amplifier sounds different (and sonically better).
Since first noticing this effect I have proven it many times, and with witnesses.
I have also found connecting cables to exhibit this effect.
Eric.
I have found that leads and electronics "break-in" when exposed to large amplitude transients.
I have encountered a strange effect when running up newly blanket resoldered amplifiers.
The manifestation of this is that when running up for the first time, the sound is constricted/wrong until clipping is achieved.
There is an audible change, and thereafter the amplifier sounds different (and sonically better).
Since first noticing this effect I have proven it many times, and with witnesses.
I have also found connecting cables to exhibit this effect.
Eric.
A theory and its ambition to become a law
After 2500 years of science and philosophy we should know better. There is an inherent ambition in any theory to become a law. There is an inherent fascism in any law to stay permanent.
Plato teached his 'Politia' (city) because he liked it. Not because it was feasible. Every theory becomes a law in absence of something more wholistic. Newton is ok for earth, not ok for Universe, Einstein covered that. Relativity is good for Universe not good enough for microcosm, Hawking covers that.
When we experience something a bit extreme for our physical laws collection and we dont have enough concrete experimental knowledge and neverteless a conclusive mathematical law to nail it, we should not get nervous. Not ignoring it we must not demonise it nor make a cult out of it.
Audio is not exactly the sector that Nasa funds are spared for its thorough scientific coverage. We are hobbyists and we should follow practical measures about audio phenomena. We are not top scientists. We are HOBBYISTS.
Japanese have the best mentality towards audio. Their esoteric stuff has shown the right path many times. And we are talking about the same people who defined consumerism. Nobody gets nervous about proving first. They listen first.
I bet if we had some top scientific team researching our issues here, we would get the answers very fast. But Hi-End sound does not seem to kill or exploit national resources. Its way too gentle and pleasing for them to spend on it.
After 2500 years of science and philosophy we should know better. There is an inherent ambition in any theory to become a law. There is an inherent fascism in any law to stay permanent.
Plato teached his 'Politia' (city) because he liked it. Not because it was feasible. Every theory becomes a law in absence of something more wholistic. Newton is ok for earth, not ok for Universe, Einstein covered that. Relativity is good for Universe not good enough for microcosm, Hawking covers that.
When we experience something a bit extreme for our physical laws collection and we dont have enough concrete experimental knowledge and neverteless a conclusive mathematical law to nail it, we should not get nervous. Not ignoring it we must not demonise it nor make a cult out of it.
Audio is not exactly the sector that Nasa funds are spared for its thorough scientific coverage. We are hobbyists and we should follow practical measures about audio phenomena. We are not top scientists. We are HOBBYISTS.
Japanese have the best mentality towards audio. Their esoteric stuff has shown the right path many times. And we are talking about the same people who defined consumerism. Nobody gets nervous about proving first. They listen first.
I bet if we had some top scientific team researching our issues here, we would get the answers very fast. But Hi-End sound does not seem to kill or exploit national resources. Its way too gentle and pleasing for them to spend on it.
I agree with you. I would add, that not only radio frequences have influence here. Also other equipment connected to the mains can degrade power line. And not need arrange any blind test to observe that quality of power line is important thing. I must switch my amp off where my wife uses her hairdrayer. Transformers in the amp get terribly growl.
From the other side power line can be infuenced by our audio stuff also. For example, power amp to CD. I observed that sound from my CD was degraded unless I gave a 100nF cap across the power line before the amp’s transformers. After that the sound have become a little darker.
My proposal here is that any experienced audio constructors could show us a GPM (Good Practice Methods) of connecting audio stuff to power line to avoid unexpecting results and eliminate influence of disturbances which can go trough the power line. It would be good to consider two-prong and three-prong installation.
Could you show practical sollution with an arrangement?
Regards
Circlotron said:
This is very curious...
Why do you spend your time here if this is your attitude?
Is this a by-product of not being able to hear above 9.5k?
I have no opinion on the powercord discussion, but if you think that all information is lost during recording then what do you listen to?
Dan, schmaltz is well-known to lubricate the micropaths that the AC electrons take. Over time, though, it can cause an electrical aethereosclerotic condition.
I'd care a lot less about the measurements if someone, ANYONE, would have done a proper, replicable listening test with positive results. Like, oh, the charlatans selling fancy line cords. FWIW, I tried the solid core idea with no difference whatever in the sound.
I'd care a lot less about the measurements if someone, ANYONE, would have done a proper, replicable listening test with positive results. Like, oh, the charlatans selling fancy line cords. FWIW, I tried the solid core idea with no difference whatever in the sound.
Hi,
Sorry to hear that, I do appreciate you making the effort though.
Many people, including myself clearly hear the difference between a multi-strand powercord and a standard multi-strand one.
The most obvious difference is one of more coherence across the audio band and better focus and separation in space of individual instruments.
Maybe that difference didn't hit a nerve?
Cheers,😉
Sorry to hear that, I do appreciate you making the effort though.
Many people, including myself clearly hear the difference between a multi-strand powercord and a standard multi-strand one.
The most obvious difference is one of more coherence across the audio band and better focus and separation in space of individual instruments.
Maybe that difference didn't hit a nerve?
Cheers,😉
SY said:
I would never pay big bucks for a power cord, but I have to confess that I have heard differences in IEC power cords. I replaced the generic power cords for my power strip with some hospital grade cords I picked up for $1.50 each at a hamfest and low and behold they actually did sound better. I was skeptical so I invited my brother-in-law to listen (he's also into DIY audio) and he was also able to hear a difference in favor of the hospital grade cords. My hand waving argument is that the connectors are much "tighter" requiring more force to insert / pull out. Presumably that helps clean the connections at each insertion and gives better contact. So I guess I'm in the camp that says the biggest differences is from the quality of the connectors.
---Gary
fdegrove said:
I've always wondered just how this could be given the fact that the majority of the time, the power cord's not even in the circuit.
se
fdegrove said:
I don't know if any of the above "clearly" hear the difference in a real test, or they just think they hear the difference?
Hi,
Errr, what class of operation's is that?
Anyway, the effect is there...to some ears at least...
Technically, to me it's the continuity of the wires that may, or may not play a role...
Either way I prefer solid core powercords no end...
Cheers,😉
Errr, what class of operation's is that?
Anyway, the effect is there...to some ears at least...
Technically, to me it's the continuity of the wires that may, or may not play a role...
Either way I prefer solid core powercords no end...
Cheers,😉
Frank: I would think, given that I'm using a single driver crossoverless speaker, that I'd hear any changes in "coherence." As I mentioned a few weeks ago, I key in on soundstaging and tonality in these kinds of tests; if I hear a guitar and I immediately think, "Ahh, a vintage Martin D-28! Medium gauge strings, spiral wound," I know my system is doing something right. And when I'm transported back to the Village Gate when I hear a live recording made there, I know that the focus is what it should be.
OTOH, my speakers don't rock
OTOH, my speakers don't rock
Hi,
Or, that's what you been told... sure enough ELS speakers don't have any visceral impact.
And no, they don't rock...doesn't matter in this case, they should be revealing enough, and they are, to throw up these differences...
This has me puzzled as to my ears this is blatantly obvious...which is is why I suggested the test in the first place...
Any other guinea pigs on this one?
Cheers,😉
Or, that's what you been told... sure enough ELS speakers don't have any visceral impact.
And no, they don't rock...doesn't matter in this case, they should be revealing enough, and they are, to throw up these differences...
This has me puzzled as to my ears this is blatantly obvious...which is is why I suggested the test in the first place...
Any other guinea pigs on this one?
Cheers,😉
In For A penny, In For A Pound..............
"Any other guinea pigs on this one?"
Yeah I'm in - why not ?.
I suppose I have nothing to lose, and at this rate I might end up with a whole new system to compare and report on !!!.
Frank, yes I am with you.
I agree that cues to listen for are subtleties like "more coherence across the audio band and better focus and separation in space of individual instruments".
There may not always be an improvement (a worsening even), but there will usually be a difference.
I have also heard AC line filters to make a similar sonic difference.
Sy, a friend of mine has a wonderfully nice system including tube preamp and power amps, and electrostats, and differeing power cables makes a clearly audible difference on his system too.
Frank, I suspect that the naysayers are not listening for for these kinds of cues, or that their systems are not intrinsically revealling enough.
Preconceptions that such cables cannot make any difference will of course prejudice listening results.
Whilst on the 240V power track, I find that all items fitted with piggy-back plugs, and all these piggy-back plugs connected together makes a nice improvement in coherence.
Eric.
"Any other guinea pigs on this one?"
Yeah I'm in - why not ?.
I suppose I have nothing to lose, and at this rate I might end up with a whole new system to compare and report on !!!.
Frank, yes I am with you.
I agree that cues to listen for are subtleties like "more coherence across the audio band and better focus and separation in space of individual instruments".
There may not always be an improvement (a worsening even), but there will usually be a difference.
I have also heard AC line filters to make a similar sonic difference.
Sy, a friend of mine has a wonderfully nice system including tube preamp and power amps, and electrostats, and differeing power cables makes a clearly audible difference on his system too.
Frank, I suspect that the naysayers are not listening for for these kinds of cues, or that their systems are not intrinsically revealling enough.
Preconceptions that such cables cannot make any difference will of course prejudice listening results.
Whilst on the 240V power track, I find that all items fitted with piggy-back plugs, and all these piggy-back plugs connected together makes a nice improvement in coherence.
Eric.
fdegrove said:
It's how your typical capacitor input power supply operates (and what causes the "flat-topping" of the AC power waveform). The rectifier diodes don't cunduct until the transformer's secondary voltage exceeds the voltage across the reservoir caps by a diode drop.
When the rectifier diodes are off, everything upstream is effectively out of the circuit. And unless you have next to no reservoir capacitance and are draining them down to next to nothing between refresh cycles or are using a choke-input power supply, the power cord will be out of the circuit the majority of the time.
Which is fine with me. As I said, I've just wondered how something that's typically out of the circuit the majority of the time can have the type of effects claimed. Not saying it hasn't or can't have any effect. I just find it curious is all.
se
fdegrove said:
How do you propose this one be pulled off remotely? I mean, it'd be quite easy to tell the difference by feel alone between stranded and solid core.
se
Since in audio equipment mains is being rectified at its peaks, power is drawn only during 33% of time
In the other 66% of time power line cord and power transformers doesn´t form part of the audio equipment as they are being isolated from the rest of the circuit by very high impedances of reverse biased diodes
Thereby, power line cord and power transformers aren´t in the circuit the majority of the time
It's wonderful to be able to hear as 'better clarity' something that is switched in and out of the audio circuits 100..120 times a second, isn´t it?
If RF is the problem [nothing magic here, you can see it with oscilloscope] then just buy some ferrite toroid cores [or any other shape] with high RF losses and build some common-mode filters to put in power cords, all equipment should include them but actually most lacks
PD: Why people says 'listening' when they actually are 'looking' ?
In the other 66% of time power line cord and power transformers doesn´t form part of the audio equipment as they are being isolated from the rest of the circuit by very high impedances of reverse biased diodes
Thereby, power line cord and power transformers aren´t in the circuit the majority of the time
It's wonderful to be able to hear as 'better clarity' something that is switched in and out of the audio circuits 100..120 times a second, isn´t it?
If RF is the problem [nothing magic here, you can see it with oscilloscope] then just buy some ferrite toroid cores [or any other shape] with high RF losses and build some common-mode filters to put in power cords, all equipment should include them but actually most lacks
PD: Why people says 'listening' when they actually are 'looking' ?
Re: In For A penny, In For A Pound..............
You mean just like how preconceptions that such cables can make a difference will also prejudice listening results?
se
mrfeedback said:
You mean just like how preconceptions that such cables can make a difference will also prejudice listening results?
se
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