Hi all,
I was wondering if it was possible to make a full range speaker with a smaller full range woofer to cover the upper bass, mids and treble (like a 4" or 5" full range driver) and then use a simple crossover to integrate a subwoofer driver (say an 8 inch) so that they blend with a little highpass and lowpass? I would think this would work but I never really see this. Maybe it's a bad idea and should just do a proper 3 way with a tweeter, mid driver and bass driver. For some reason I'm just fancying the idea of a simple full range driver, crossover with a sub driver in a tall tower cabinet. Was thinking of a tall skinny tower, say 6" face, 10" deep, 33" tall or similar to that to blend in with most furniture height and sitting levels. Internally the full range driver would have its own enclosure within the tower, ported and tuned to where it will peak and then roll off. The sub driver in its own enclosure in the tower too, also ported, goal of 30hz performance in room. I realize this is not a far stone's throw from just splitting the full range driver into a tweeter and mid woofer and increasing the crossover complexity to a three way. I was just trying to think of a fun simple 2 way design that is "full range" without having to build a transmission line or horn design.
Very best,
I was wondering if it was possible to make a full range speaker with a smaller full range woofer to cover the upper bass, mids and treble (like a 4" or 5" full range driver) and then use a simple crossover to integrate a subwoofer driver (say an 8 inch) so that they blend with a little highpass and lowpass? I would think this would work but I never really see this. Maybe it's a bad idea and should just do a proper 3 way with a tweeter, mid driver and bass driver. For some reason I'm just fancying the idea of a simple full range driver, crossover with a sub driver in a tall tower cabinet. Was thinking of a tall skinny tower, say 6" face, 10" deep, 33" tall or similar to that to blend in with most furniture height and sitting levels. Internally the full range driver would have its own enclosure within the tower, ported and tuned to where it will peak and then roll off. The sub driver in its own enclosure in the tower too, also ported, goal of 30hz performance in room. I realize this is not a far stone's throw from just splitting the full range driver into a tweeter and mid woofer and increasing the crossover complexity to a three way. I was just trying to think of a fun simple 2 way design that is "full range" without having to build a transmission line or horn design.
Very best,
Search for waw or waf (woofer assisted widerange, woofer assisted fullrange). Nothing new.
Edit: rxv beat me 🙂
Thanks all, I will search this up. I had not seen this around the various places I lurk. I'm glad it's possible, it seems like a great way to start the full range journey for fun.
I'm mostly interested in keeping it from being enormous, but being able to craft two skinny towers that will house an 8 inch driver (the bass driver) and a 4" full range driver in the enclosure in separate spaces so they're not sharing volumes. I'm not good with crossovers, so this seemed like an easier way to 'start' that type stuff. These would be mostly for music, classic 60's and 70's rock and pop and some more modern stuff, but definitely needs to sound great for things like Pink Floyd and Billy Joel. Was thinking of gifting them to a family member. Would be built in birch or oak.
Currently looking at:
Dayton RS100-4, Reference (4", 4ohm) Full Range Driver (cross over around 120~250hz?) in a 0.15 Ft^3 60hz tuned cubby
Dayton DCS205-4, Classic (8" 4ohm) Sub Woofer (tuning at 30hz; so 30hz~120-250hz?) in a 1.5 Ft^3 30hz tuned cabinet
Very best,
I'm mostly interested in keeping it from being enormous, but being able to craft two skinny towers that will house an 8 inch driver (the bass driver) and a 4" full range driver in the enclosure in separate spaces so they're not sharing volumes. I'm not good with crossovers, so this seemed like an easier way to 'start' that type stuff. These would be mostly for music, classic 60's and 70's rock and pop and some more modern stuff, but definitely needs to sound great for things like Pink Floyd and Billy Joel. Was thinking of gifting them to a family member. Would be built in birch or oak.
Currently looking at:
Dayton RS100-4, Reference (4", 4ohm) Full Range Driver (cross over around 120~250hz?) in a 0.15 Ft^3 60hz tuned cubby
Dayton DCS205-4, Classic (8" 4ohm) Sub Woofer (tuning at 30hz; so 30hz~120-250hz?) in a 1.5 Ft^3 30hz tuned cabinet
Very best,
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Indeed users of "multi-way" bookshelf or even floorstand speakers have been doing this too.
That said, its effectiveness depends on your music and your goals. A pair of small and fast high-quality 8" subwoofers/plate-amps can seamlessly support LF-challenged ultra-fast speakers even (my) Lowthers and Monitor Audio Studios. The trick is to leave the speakers alone, set cut-off high, tweak sub/plate-amp phase knob until sound is maximally full, then fine-tune volume/frequency until the sub is barely noticed. However, twin 8" subs may not get down to the proverbial 30hz, so throw in another 12" sub. Do beware subs should have their own cabs and deep-bass drivers have typically much lower sensitivity than not-too-small FR drivers.
Given my office/studio living arrangement in space-tight Beijing, I use 6.5" resin-coated-carbon-fiber (originally automotive) "Juecass 658" sub-bass drivers in a pair of subwoofer cabinets, instantly convertible between sub and wide-range (to 7khz) "monitor class". Backing up 8" Lowther PM6A, I thought "why bother with the finicky FR"... and eventually made "Ultrae" (ultra sultry) described in another post. I have assembled another multi-purpose, so-called "7"-labyrinth (Onken and slanted divider to form a tapered U-turn line with choke) 6.5" two-way, "AIRS" Al2O3 Alumina deep-bass and ceramic-dome (super-)tweeter (again, originally hi-tech automotive speakers), that with different external XO/notch-filters can be matched to various FR/WR (and used as stands).
That said, its effectiveness depends on your music and your goals. A pair of small and fast high-quality 8" subwoofers/plate-amps can seamlessly support LF-challenged ultra-fast speakers even (my) Lowthers and Monitor Audio Studios. The trick is to leave the speakers alone, set cut-off high, tweak sub/plate-amp phase knob until sound is maximally full, then fine-tune volume/frequency until the sub is barely noticed. However, twin 8" subs may not get down to the proverbial 30hz, so throw in another 12" sub. Do beware subs should have their own cabs and deep-bass drivers have typically much lower sensitivity than not-too-small FR drivers.
Given my office/studio living arrangement in space-tight Beijing, I use 6.5" resin-coated-carbon-fiber (originally automotive) "Juecass 658" sub-bass drivers in a pair of subwoofer cabinets, instantly convertible between sub and wide-range (to 7khz) "monitor class". Backing up 8" Lowther PM6A, I thought "why bother with the finicky FR"... and eventually made "Ultrae" (ultra sultry) described in another post. I have assembled another multi-purpose, so-called "7"-labyrinth (Onken and slanted divider to form a tapered U-turn line with choke) 6.5" two-way, "AIRS" Al2O3 Alumina deep-bass and ceramic-dome (super-)tweeter (again, originally hi-tech automotive speakers), that with different external XO/notch-filters can be matched to various FR/WR (and used as stands).
Thanks,
I just tried to model the drivers referenced above in XSim. I didn't do much, just basically lowpass/highpass filters between the two. They were kind of close to begin with. I'm not good with crossovers, so any insight is helpful and appreciated. I'm attaching my XSim model for anyone who cares to view (feel free to make edits or suggestions).
Drivers (1 each per tower):
Dayton RS100-4, Reference (4", 4ohm) Full Range Driver (cross over around 120~250hz?) in a 0.15 Ft^3 60hz tuned cubby
Dayton DCS205-4, Classic (8" 4ohm) Sub Woofer (tuning at 30hz; so 30hz~120-250hz?) in a 1.5 Ft^3 30hz tuned cabinet
The two drivers would have their own defined space sealed off from each other, but each ported to the room of course. The 8" driver would face lateral. The 4" would face outward. The drivers would not be recessed into the baffle.
Very best,
I just tried to model the drivers referenced above in XSim. I didn't do much, just basically lowpass/highpass filters between the two. They were kind of close to begin with. I'm not good with crossovers, so any insight is helpful and appreciated. I'm attaching my XSim model for anyone who cares to view (feel free to make edits or suggestions).
Drivers (1 each per tower):
Dayton RS100-4, Reference (4", 4ohm) Full Range Driver (cross over around 120~250hz?) in a 0.15 Ft^3 60hz tuned cubby
Dayton DCS205-4, Classic (8" 4ohm) Sub Woofer (tuning at 30hz; so 30hz~120-250hz?) in a 1.5 Ft^3 30hz tuned cabinet
The two drivers would have their own defined space sealed off from each other, but each ported to the room of course. The 8" driver would face lateral. The 4" would face outward. The drivers would not be recessed into the baffle.
Very best,
It's not unusual to use simple crossovers in a WAW. There is usually a wide region over which the drivers are happy to operate in a consistent manner.
The first thing I'd do to make good use of this compromise potential is start with a fullrange driver chosen for it's treble qualities, before it's bass extension.
The first thing I'd do to make good use of this compromise potential is start with a fullrange driver chosen for it's treble qualities, before it's bass extension.
My "minimalist method" XO https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ge-drivers-and-a-tweeter.391053/#post-7143129
8" facing lateral, you might not need much XOing https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/1-order-crossover-help.391332/page-2#post-7151405
(I've also done this with 12" Roland Cube doublebass drivers paired with "AIRS" whizzer 5" FR, XO-less.)
8" facing lateral, you might not need much XOing https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/1-order-crossover-help.391332/page-2#post-7151405
(I've also done this with 12" Roland Cube doublebass drivers paired with "AIRS" whizzer 5" FR, XO-less.)
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A WAW. A 2-way with woofers supporting a widerange with XO typically 200-500 Hz or so. Almost all OBs using a FR are WAWs.
dave
Here is good waw example from X
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor.273524/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor.273524/
Do not forget famous Manzanita
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fast-fun-inexpensive-ob-project.110583/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fast-fun-inexpensive-ob-project.110583/
Let's not forget famous Mr. Nelson Pass SLOB.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...orthern-california.384670/page-4#post-7056947
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...orthern-california.384670/page-4#post-7056947
I did it with an Mark Audoi Alpair 10.3 FR and a Scanspeak 26W woofer with crossover at 250Hz. It can be very good, altough this build moved to my bedroom as i'm building new stuff (single fullrange drivers builds) that took their place in my main setup. The picture is also the second build, first i had all ported tuned to 24Hz (on the sub), now all are sealed and still it hits an F6 of 30Hz without dsp or other eq. I used a 1st order serial crossover, but i'm reviewing (or at least the review is planned soon) it as it had some issues...
Any decent fullrange driver and woofer that goes to 2-300Hz can be usesd, and a lower crossover point also. But it's good to use a higher crossover point than a typical subwoofer wuold use, to take away the stress of the fullrange driver to also do the midbass. 250-300Hz is a good region i think for a crosssover on such a build (depending on the drivers and cabinet off course).
Any decent fullrange driver and woofer that goes to 2-300Hz can be usesd, and a lower crossover point also. But it's good to use a higher crossover point than a typical subwoofer wuold use, to take away the stress of the fullrange driver to also do the midbass. 250-300Hz is a good region i think for a crosssover on such a build (depending on the drivers and cabinet off course).
Attachments
Thanks all, very interesting in those links. One far more complicated than the other. Definitely leaning towards the simplest I can for this.
I like that 3rd image above; skinny tower, small driver facing (full range), woofer (bass) on the side. That would fit into a crowded living room or common room better than something wider. Foot print size is always the biggest factor, whereas height hardly ever matters as long as its not blocking a window.
If anyone has a moment to look at the Xsim I linked above, that crossover, any thoughts on that would help. I know I've done something wrong in it, but I learn from mistakes. So fire away, I appreciate your time.
Very best,
I like that 3rd image above; skinny tower, small driver facing (full range), woofer (bass) on the side. That would fit into a crowded living room or common room better than something wider. Foot print size is always the biggest factor, whereas height hardly ever matters as long as its not blocking a window.
If anyone has a moment to look at the Xsim I linked above, that crossover, any thoughts on that would help. I know I've done something wrong in it, but I learn from mistakes. So fire away, I appreciate your time.
Very best,
The crossover is not phase aligned, and done with spec sheet graphs, so it's hard to tell. To do it precise you need to measure the drivers in the box and use those. And phase align your drivers on the crossover point in the crossover (research this, this is very important for a good crossover). I would also cut much higher to the fullrange, as this little Dayton driver will need it in this kind of config.
It's also not the driver combo i would use. For the same kind of money you can get much better with the Pluvia7 as top and a Peerless SLS-P830668 woofer, and the woofer need only a slightly bigger cabinet (65L or 2.3Ft³) which should be stil ok for a small build. Or use the TL type of cabniet XRK971 with the Dayton RS225 driver that is much better than your woofer and is also not expensive and just replace the fullrange driver to something more reasonable priced than that scanspeak. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor.273524/
It's also not the driver combo i would use. For the same kind of money you can get much better with the Pluvia7 as top and a Peerless SLS-P830668 woofer, and the woofer need only a slightly bigger cabinet (65L or 2.3Ft³) which should be stil ok for a small build. Or use the TL type of cabniet XRK971 with the Dayton RS225 driver that is much better than your woofer and is also not expensive and just replace the fullrange driver to something more reasonable priced than that scanspeak. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor.273524/
I still messed arround with your config for 5 minutes while a server at work was rebooting, and assumed both drivers are on the front cabinet with 1cm space in between and came to this crossover.
Off course this is a very fast draw, no guarantee, also because i work from your data, that i don't know if it's right. I crosss much higher because your FR wants that, crossing as low as you do will not work well in reality.
Tysen V2. 2 woofers, one on each side, loaded push-push in an ML-TL. A passive XO already designed. Not much more than $200 in drivers, the XO does have some big parts.
dave