I could join the party. What is the budget we are talking about finally? Not only the units, all of it.
(Don't throw me a brick - why not 2 way if we are on a budget?)
(Don't throw me a brick - why not 2 way if we are on a budget?)
The main point is to create something similar, at least in terms of form, as the classic three-ways discussed in the first post. Finding a budget 2-way DIY speaker is not hard.
It will be hard to know the FULL cost until near the end of the design stage because the cost of the passive crossover for a 3-way can get expensive quickly. For EUR 1,000 in drivers, assume at least EUR 250 in xo parts. The wood/material and finishing costs are up to you -- EUR 50 for Duratex to EUR 600 for piano gloss walnut burl veneer.
It will be hard to know the FULL cost until near the end of the design stage because the cost of the passive crossover for a 3-way can get expensive quickly. For EUR 1,000 in drivers, assume at least EUR 250 in xo parts. The wood/material and finishing costs are up to you -- EUR 50 for Duratex to EUR 600 for piano gloss walnut burl veneer.
I think could build something decent, with a $800 budget for drivers, and x-over parts. ($400 / speaker ). I wouldn't want to be in a position of trying to sell someone on the design.
I'm assuming that for this type of speaker, many are going to use it up against the wall in a cluttered living room with TV, etc., and many with intentions of using EQ, or room correction in their AVR. Not really an audiophile setup, but enjoyable for what it is.
In addition, I suppose there are woodworkers that can make first class furniture that might like a big speaker with a nostalgic look. They may also have no idea how good imaging and real low distortion might sound. They may not be that picky. They might not need bass below 40hz. Maybe some would prefer to spend the money on this, rather than spend $400 of their budget on a sub. There's always kits I suppose, but threads like this one make me want to design something.
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There is that, yes... This project is not a low cost budget-oriented DIY speaker. Early in the thread Andy mentioned a notional budget of 500 - 1000 GBP for all 6 drivers, and that translates to $625 - $1250 USD. If the SB34NRXL is chosen, it will push the driver budget up toward the upper end, but we could still select an excellent set of drivers and stay under $1250.
I keep going back to the list of speakers that Andy is listing as inspiration or guidance:
Most of those are fairly spendy. Certainly the Harbeth, Spendor, Genelec, ATC, Neumann, Klein & Hummel speakers are all above $10,000 per pair.
Now I believe that a collaborative group project can match the performance of these fine speakers, particularly with the level of expertise that is demonstrated on this forum every day. But we probably cannot do it with a driver budget of $600 for all 6 drivers. It is going to take a little more than that.
The mid/entry market for consumer passive speakers at $1000-$2000 generally does not include speakers with a 12" woofer and the performance capability that is being contemplated.
Absolutely true.
All I am saying is that $ is important if broad acceptance is a goal.
The speakers on Andy's list are great to aspire to, but if the cost gets to even a fraction of most of their retail pricing, we're just going straight back to the OSMC.
Current price per pair -- on a quick web search:
- Harbeth M40 (750 x 432 x 388) -- M40.3X: $40,000
- Spendor Classic 100 (700 x 370 x 433) -- $14,800
- Revival Audio Atlante 5 (710 x 420 x 355) --$5000
- K&H O 500C (750 x 400 x 447) -- $8,000
- Genelec 1237A (680 x 400 x 380) -- $7,675
- ATC SCM100ASL Pro (832 x 398 x 581) -- $19,990
- OSMC (682 x 368 x 420) ????
- SB Acoustics Gema (720 x 430 x 360) -- $1,369 -- note that this is a kit few have actually seen, heard or measured
- TG Faital-12-430 (680 x 375 x 400) -- € 1288 for only crossover kit, damping & accessories
The Man-drills coffins ?
Gala-drill-Yale ?
OSTRAL (One Speaker to Rule All Loudly)
YALA (Yet another Loudspeaker Again)
OSMC (Oh S..t My Cat !)
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It seems that the first version of this project will be an active speaker. So there is the cost of 6 channels of amplification and other associated electronics. The obvious and easy (but expensive) option is Hypex FA123 or FA253, which add $1400 or $1100 to the cost. I am sure the design team will look at all the options, and may come up with something less expensive. Using a passive crossover between mid and tweeter reduces the number of channels from 6 to 4, while still allowing DSP control over voicing, and also avoiding the large expensive woof-mid passive crossover.
Thanks for posting that!
One correction ... I believe the Genelec 1237 is about $6k each. https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/24...-active-master-studio-monitor-12-lf-5-mf-1-hf
Another option is to go passive between mid & tweeter, active between woofer & mid. The former is usually cheaper to implement than woofer/mid passive. The latter allows use of miniDSP 2x4hd, the cheapest 2-way active that's reasonable for SQ. End user can choose higher end active x-over; filters/PEQ for the crossover don't change. It also allows DSP PEQ of the high band too.
This also allows different amps to be used. For the bass, something like a $50 2x150W class-D amp from @Erica.C would work fine; its less than perfectly quiet residual noise would not be heard in this application. For the mid/highs, a ~$200 3e-Audio A5 stereo amp would be perfect. One of the quietest amps ever. (13uV noise -- lower than the 20mV of latest Hypex gen nCore modules.)
On sale for half off, although only 10 in stock (in Canada)
https://solen.ca/en/products/wavecor-tw045wa01-coax-tweeter-4ohm
As soon as Andy releases a crossover it can be converted to the passive equivalent.
Yes, true ... but we should add to the requirements that the initial active crossover be IIR. If it is FIR linear phase, then it will be very hard to replicate with inductors and capacitors...
FIR is in any case unlikely to be necessary with even a quality conventional speaker. The relationships should remain respected when converting from one to the other.
Excess phase attributable to acoustic issues can only be corrected acoustically. Excess group delay in connection with the filters is subject to an audibility threshold. Absolute phase response of a properly made speaker isn't considered audible.
Excess phase attributable to acoustic issues can only be corrected acoustically. Excess group delay in connection with the filters is subject to an audibility threshold. Absolute phase response of a properly made speaker isn't considered audible.
A joke? That's a weird driver. AudioXpress tests show terrible off axis response for a 22mm tweeter. But perhaps not bad for a 45mm cone.
In terms of comparison to commercially available speakers, I would expect a DIY speaker using £1000 of parts to rival commercial speakers in the £5000-10000 range (assuming designed well). Most of the big companies work on a the parts price being between 10 and 20% of the speaker retail price which take into account the OEM R&D, build, marketing and shipping costs, potentially a whole seller mark up and then the retailer mark up. Some of the direct sellers like Buchardt and BK Electronics are at the lower end of this range but still have a significant mark up on the parts cost.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
A bit more on the theme which needs to be adopted if we are to work as a group.
The main objective is to achieve (or get close to) the high technical performance of the better modern midfield monitors (Genelec, Neumann, JBL,...) with the visuals of a retro monkey coffin using standard range drivers in a modular form. A Modular Monkey Midfield Monintor. An mmmm speaker.
The objective follows from a number of observations:
In order to achieve a high technical performance to match or get close to the better commercial midfield monitors requires understanding and optimising the engineering details. There are current threads using BEM to optimise the 3D shape of waveguides and cabinets, a project looking at the details of port geometries and how to minimise unwanted resonances and chuffing, waveguide manufacture, DSP,... which we can hopefully bring into the project to meet the objective. A task that is not currently being performed but is routine in the design of commercial high quality speakers is cabinet vibration analysis. There is freely available software around to address this (though with less than ideal damping models) and is something I would like to add to the project.
Given the modular structure, the high level of interest in even lower costs, a possible wish to use drivers on a flat baffle, a high level of interest in passive crossovers,... designing several versions with different levels of cost and technical performance is well within the scope of the project. So long as the technical peformance that is being exchanged to lower cost or create a simpler build is evaluated and understood quantitatively it will hopefully add rather than detract from the main objective to maximise technical performance within the stated form, size and cost constraints.
The main objective is to achieve (or get close to) the high technical performance of the better modern midfield monitors (Genelec, Neumann, JBL,...) with the visuals of a retro monkey coffin using standard range drivers in a modular form. A Modular Monkey Midfield Monintor. An mmmm speaker.
The objective follows from a number of observations:
- DIY speakers with expensive drivers don't get built much
- high technical performance speakers like midfield monitors tend to use good quality standard drivers rather than expensive prestige drivers
- retro monkey coffin visuals are attractive to a fair few
- a woofer chassis with a swapable midrange/tweeter assembly fits nicely with a speaker DIY hobby
In order to achieve a high technical performance to match or get close to the better commercial midfield monitors requires understanding and optimising the engineering details. There are current threads using BEM to optimise the 3D shape of waveguides and cabinets, a project looking at the details of port geometries and how to minimise unwanted resonances and chuffing, waveguide manufacture, DSP,... which we can hopefully bring into the project to meet the objective. A task that is not currently being performed but is routine in the design of commercial high quality speakers is cabinet vibration analysis. There is freely available software around to address this (though with less than ideal damping models) and is something I would like to add to the project.
Given the modular structure, the high level of interest in even lower costs, a possible wish to use drivers on a flat baffle, a high level of interest in passive crossovers,... designing several versions with different levels of cost and technical performance is well within the scope of the project. So long as the technical peformance that is being exchanged to lower cost or create a simpler build is evaluated and understood quantitatively it will hopefully add rather than detract from the main objective to maximise technical performance within the stated form, size and cost constraints.