Replace all those "defective" EI core transformers with Proper Toroidal core transformers then you can quit bad mouthing people.
If OP had worded his OP better, maybe he would've gotten a better response to start with.
I for one had no idea what the h he was babbling about.
I for one had no idea what the h he was babbling about.
I hope this thread eventually cleared it up for you. From now on... If you ever bump into an another audiophile using the same commonly misused wording I did? You may then be able to quickly grasp what he was getting at. Audiophiles can get involved in things that are technical, but not know the correct technical terms used by technicians...
And what I was referring to as polarity of the AC plug? What is the correct way to speak of this if I ever mention it to a technically inclined person? I now believe it has something to do with the leads concerning transformers, and how they are connected with the ground/chassis.
All I know is that being able to try a power plug in an outlet in opposite ways, one will render a better sound when the correct way is found.
If its leakage from transformer primaries to chassis, wouldn't a Ground Loop Breaker be a lot more effective in keeping the voltages/currents away from the interconnects?
I would certainly think so. Any effect of the reversal is going to be very small I would imagine but possibly accumulative. Some people don't (or can't, due to the mains wiring systems) use them, so the method could be more beneficial in some circumstances?
The external PSU I have came with two umbilical power cords. The barrel plugs on the ends of these cords are in reverse of the other. On one the center pin is positive, and on the other cord the center pin is negative. I just did a repeated A/B testing using each cord. Every time I switched the cords the audible differences in sound were easily detectable. What ever its doing? Is an audiophile reality.
A.C. Alternating Current - There is no polarity.
If the output cords reverse the connection of an A.C. signal, there is still NO polarity.
I'm not going to teach you the basics of electricity.
If you can post on a forum then you should be able to use a search engine and find this information easily enough.
If the output cords reverse the connection of an A.C. signal, there is still NO polarity.
I'm not going to teach you the basics of electricity.
If you can post on a forum then you should be able to use a search engine and find this information easily enough.
Show us what external PSU you are using, and take measurements and post them. If you are saying this a two wire AC connection to a class II (unearthed) piece of equipment, something else is going on other than what you think
No the stray current is not just to the chassis it also is to the secondary. In the case where you are double insulated and have no safety ground connection you will still have an induced voltage/current to the chassis. If two pieces are connected there will be a current flowing through the interconnect shields. If you had a noiseless safety ground to each some of that current would take that path. But as the safety ground in the US can have as much as a 6 ohm resistance that would get much less current than the shields. Adding a ground breaker would decrease the current and raise the noise level.
It is capacitive coupling that is the issue. Not leakage flux. So toroids often have more capacitance.
Raising the issue of magnetic flux leakage must involve two other issues.
In any discussion of noise it is useful to look at the source, the path and the receiver.
The source of flux noise is not just leakage due to core geometry but also due to saturation. Saturation not only lets flux out but also causes harmonics on the AC lines. As line voltage in the US can reach 132 volts and many transformers are rated 110-120 volts saturation is designed in. This lowers the cost of manufacturing and gives better secondary voltage regulation.
The path is normally that the transformer is directly bolted to the chassis. To improve this the transformer can be mounted to a steel plate that is then electrically floated from the chassis by non-conductive spacers. The more common approach was to put the power transformer on a corner of the chassis away from the ground reference.
The receiver is of course the circuit being powered. Approaches here are to increase the filtering and to use balanced circuits. In large systems where the equipment will have potential differences in the safety grounds then audio isolation transformers are quite useful.
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This just doesn't compute for me , i'm far from being an electrical engineer but surely products powererd by separate wallwart type psu's can only be used with the polarity one way and if you connect using reversed it's just going to go bang ?
I understand what you are saying about the adapter but i once connected a cd walkman using 5 v but the wrong polarity and i killed it .
Or am i missing something here?
Seems to me the issue is the identification of the neutral wire versus the hot wire in a standard 120V U.S. outlet. The industry does in fact identify this as 'polarity'. You seem to be bothered by the more traditional term being used to identify the more positive wire in a DC system, or the relative polarity applied to transformer windings.
One could be more specific, and state hot/neutral swapped, but among your average electrician stating 'reversed polarity' would not raise questions on what is meant.
This thread seems to be gradually filling up with misinformation from both sides of the argument.
There is an effect, and there is a rational explanation. Like most such effects, it is small and probably smaller in better engineered equipment. It may be more audible in some more expensive 'audiophile' systems, as these often involve poorer engineering. If the effect is clearly audible, rather than minor and subtle, then the equipment probably suffers from design flaws.
There is an effect, and there is a rational explanation. Like most such effects, it is small and probably smaller in better engineered equipment. It may be more audible in some more expensive 'audiophile' systems, as these often involve poorer engineering. If the effect is clearly audible, rather than minor and subtle, then the equipment probably suffers from design flaws.
Can you get over it? The wrong term for you was being used. But, in audiophile circles its a term that was chosen to describe a phenomena that is a a reality.
You got a few minutes? You can take any audio component you have that plugs into an AC outlet and witness to the measurements for your self. Even if it uses a wall wart. All you need is a voltmeter.
Its a reality. It would be a very rare piece of equipment that measures the same when you reverse the AC plug orientation. To do so, I took a cheap IEC computer power cord and snipped off the ground prong so I could flip the plug's orientation in the AC outlet. One orientation is going to render higher voltage running on the chassis than the other. The lower setting I found renders the cleanest sound. WHY? Your job is to analyze why. We audiophiles just know it sounds better.
Perhaps? You can provide the technically correct terminology? For now, in audiophile circles, many simply use the term "polarity" to describe the process. Some audio companies even provide a "polarity" switch. Others wrongly called it a "phase" button. Yes... both may be technically wrong terms. But, its the word chosen by many audiophiles to communicate an audible realty found by those wishing to purify what reaches their ears. Even speakers experience this "polarity" effect. Some say its nonsense...
For example. The DacMagic has a button featured to reverse what is called polarity. A Wyred 4 Sound DAC has it labelled "phase." There are other's too. Its an audible reality. But only if your system is up to revealing it.
Its best heard with phase coherent speakers.
Does anyone here remember having toy trains? If AC has no polarity? What made the train able to go in reverse? I am asking this to learn the correct terminology.
It has been explained how reversal of the AC mains can make a difference. But you are talking about 12V AC from an external PSU are you not?
What enters the external PSU will determine what exists. Normally. The plug's orientation in the outlet will determine what leaves the PSU. I am perplexed why this is being such a challenge to some here. Get over the wrong term being used . That has been established. Let's deal with what actually takes place and properly define it, please.
The fact remains.. When you reverse the orientation of the plug at the wall outlet... it will reverse what leaves the PSU. I think we have hit a wall of terminology rather than something actually taking place. If possible.. I wish to learn and establish some terms here so we can be on the same page. OK... Audiophiles have been using sloppy vocabulary. But, they also know the end results are real.
That is a phase issue, if you reverse the input the AC sine wave will be reversed at the output (180 degrees). The imbalance in the transformer can have an effect because mains live and neutral are different in that neutral is referenced to earth usually, and then the transformer is coupling to the chassis. That obviously can not happen with an external transformer
AC means that the current just jiggles backwards and forwards, there is no reversal of the direction of the current that leaves the PSU.
Gene you keep mentioning ' we audiophiles ' as though ' they ' are some exclusive group that are enlightened and have access to facultys the rest of us seem unable to comprehend.
Dismissing the opinions of others just because they don't share your views or provide evidence and or experiences that clash with yours doesn't do you any favours.
As far as i see it we are all 'audiophiles' thats why we are here and i for one have no time for the ' you haven't heard what a real system can do so your opinion doesn't count ' brand of Hi - Fi snobbery .
Dismissing the opinions of others just because they don't share your views or provide evidence and or experiences that clash with yours doesn't do you any favours.
As far as i see it we are all 'audiophiles' thats why we are here and i for one have no time for the ' you haven't heard what a real system can do so your opinion doesn't count ' brand of Hi - Fi snobbery .
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