The Seas U22REX/P-SL would likely be easier to use than the W22.
If you want something with a larger woofer, the Orangutan Clone threads permit that.
3ways are twice the filter design of a 2way. Not saying you can't learn and do that on your first try, but you'll be at it for a while.
If you want something with a larger woofer, the Orangutan Clone threads permit that.
3ways are twice the filter design of a 2way. Not saying you can't learn and do that on your first try, but you'll be at it for a while.
I've heard the bass from big 18" subs which is very low, but a lot of manufacturers use multiple small drivers to get low bass.
I've heard claims this because the smaller drivers can move faster so the manufacturer can get low bass with speed, rather than one big unit which is heavy and slow, so gives a slower bass
I've heard claims this because the smaller drivers can move faster so the manufacturer can get low bass with speed, rather than one big unit which is heavy and slow, so gives a slower bass
Thanks! Why do people talk so much about matching amp to speakers, is that a thing or imaginary,
do you think some speakers prefer certain amps,
is it because high end amps may have more current output,
Do you think speaker manufacturers design their high end speakers to work well with only high end amps, as they assume people buying their expensive speakers will have expensive amps
do you think some speakers prefer certain amps,
is it because high end amps may have more current output,
Do you think speaker manufacturers design their high end speakers to work well with only high end amps, as they assume people buying their expensive speakers will have expensive amps
Well, asking that in a DIY forum seems OT... But then when you have 'the absolute' system, what you do?
Some amps make speakers react different because of the output impendance and damping, Tube amps have a high output impendance and low damping and so it boost a bit the extrems in the frequency spectrum. Modern amps have low output impendance and high damping and are neutral in frequency response.
And yes, some build speakers targetted at that low damping effect of tube amps, but they are not techincally better, they are worse. That does not mean the trick can't work, when done right it's one of the great tricks of colouring sound in a good way. Fostex, Lowther, AN and some other driver makers count on that trick (in combination with horns) to give (some of) their drivers bass in a lot of cases.
But modern amps are way more neutral and clean sounding (so technical better) and most modern speakers are tuned for that. And now we have dsp and so. So it's not the only way anymore that we can use.
What fits best to you, is something you need to decide. But it's a factor to take account for when using SET or other tube amps (and often also class A transistor amps). They will boost the bass and upper treble in a lot of cases.
And yes, some build speakers targetted at that low damping effect of tube amps, but they are not techincally better, they are worse. That does not mean the trick can't work, when done right it's one of the great tricks of colouring sound in a good way. Fostex, Lowther, AN and some other driver makers count on that trick (in combination with horns) to give (some of) their drivers bass in a lot of cases.
But modern amps are way more neutral and clean sounding (so technical better) and most modern speakers are tuned for that. And now we have dsp and so. So it's not the only way anymore that we can use.
What fits best to you, is something you need to decide. But it's a factor to take account for when using SET or other tube amps (and often also class A transistor amps). They will boost the bass and upper treble in a lot of cases.
What speakers have you owned in the past and where have the previous speakers failed in the listening experience?
Is your listening environment well damped or lively, hard surfaces, carpets, furnishings etc. How large is the area, and your listening distance.
What amp are you intending to use quad, class A, AB, B or class D, which one, as they are not all created equal and some are known for their frequency response aberration's in the high frequencies due to the speaker impedance.
What is your allowable budget, and within that can you do the required carpentry, or are you looking for a kit with woodwork.
Here in the UK recently two new kits have become available, I would say that they use drivers that approach close to diminishing returns.
One is from Hi Fi Collective and another more expensive option from Audio First called the Fidelia. Notice how the price level rapidly increases, although the Fidelia front baffle and tweeter offset would have needed considerable designer input
Interestingly there are at least three other designs out there that basically utilise the same drivers used in the Fidelia. Some of the other designs use an ABR, but the Fidelia does not. These are smaller but not dissimilar to the Buchart S400 type of design.
There are usually several live threads here where people are going through their design and the choices made, is there anything that catches your eye or somewhere else?
Is your listening environment well damped or lively, hard surfaces, carpets, furnishings etc. How large is the area, and your listening distance.
What amp are you intending to use quad, class A, AB, B or class D, which one, as they are not all created equal and some are known for their frequency response aberration's in the high frequencies due to the speaker impedance.
What is your allowable budget, and within that can you do the required carpentry, or are you looking for a kit with woodwork.
Here in the UK recently two new kits have become available, I would say that they use drivers that approach close to diminishing returns.
One is from Hi Fi Collective and another more expensive option from Audio First called the Fidelia. Notice how the price level rapidly increases, although the Fidelia front baffle and tweeter offset would have needed considerable designer input
Interestingly there are at least three other designs out there that basically utilise the same drivers used in the Fidelia. Some of the other designs use an ABR, but the Fidelia does not. These are smaller but not dissimilar to the Buchart S400 type of design.
There are usually several live threads here where people are going through their design and the choices made, is there anything that catches your eye or somewhere else?
Nothing that catches my eye, sorry for going off topic, i just keep hearing peeps raving on about how their speakers sound so much better with this amp or that amp, there's tons of threads about it on the net. But I am in the market for drivers, or a diy kit, so thought i would ask about the amp compatibility issue that is bothering some people.
I have a topping PA5 II amp and also a quad 909. I usually listen to low volume something like 20 watts per channel, i am after bookshelf type speakers, what drivers would you recommend, and also what kit. For drivers i have a budget of £400 to pay for a 4 ohm 8" bass mid driver up to 1khz
and for a kit i could push the budget up to £700
I have a topping PA5 II amp and also a quad 909. I usually listen to low volume something like 20 watts per channel, i am after bookshelf type speakers, what drivers would you recommend, and also what kit. For drivers i have a budget of £400 to pay for a 4 ohm 8" bass mid driver up to 1khz
and for a kit i could push the budget up to £700
Well, the 4Ω specification makes me think that you've read the specs of your amp and decided that more watts are better, given that amplifiers put more watts on lowers Z speaker
If you are intent on an 8 inch driver, I presume to give you a fair amount of bass ,that will be a fairly large bookshelf by modern day standards.
May I ask why the 4ohm and 1 KHz requirement, due to the class D amp load preference, and the fact that an eight inch will start beaming after approx 1KHz. You would need a waveguided tweeter to get down that low.
Value for money eight inches suggest to me Dayton RS, Scan Discovery 8 inch, and the SB. Unfortunately I am unaware of anybody who has tried the Cheaper plastic framed SB Acoustics version. As a relatively safe choice I would have a look at what Troels Gravesen has done with the Scan Speak Discovery 81 eight inch. Not sure if it is quite bookshelf dimensions, but it could be the basis for a smaller Infinite baffle based design. The smaller Troels design Discovery 18Mk11 uses a good 6.5 inch and maybe more bookshelf sized.
Others will have more experience of European and American designs and I am sure will add their own suggestions.
May I ask why the 4ohm and 1 KHz requirement, due to the class D amp load preference, and the fact that an eight inch will start beaming after approx 1KHz. You would need a waveguided tweeter to get down that low.
Value for money eight inches suggest to me Dayton RS, Scan Discovery 8 inch, and the SB. Unfortunately I am unaware of anybody who has tried the Cheaper plastic framed SB Acoustics version. As a relatively safe choice I would have a look at what Troels Gravesen has done with the Scan Speak Discovery 81 eight inch. Not sure if it is quite bookshelf dimensions, but it could be the basis for a smaller Infinite baffle based design. The smaller Troels design Discovery 18Mk11 uses a good 6.5 inch and maybe more bookshelf sized.
Others will have more experience of European and American designs and I am sure will add their own suggestions.
You got modern amps, so use modern style drivers. I would look at SB drivers, like the SB26ADC and the MW19P-8. That could be a good combo. You can cross those at 1500Hz, maybe even lower if you use a waveguide. That will give you the most bang for the buck.
But i would also go smaller on the woofer, that is better and with some drivers like the MW16P-8 you can go as low but in a smaller cabinet. The MW19P needs 25 to 30 liter to go that low, the MW16P only 20L. That makes the speaker more a real bookshelf and not a standmount (or very big bookshelf). The MW16P can still go to 102dB at 40Hz without exeding xmax, but will have better directivity and easier to crosso to a tweeter.
But i would also go smaller on the woofer, that is better and with some drivers like the MW16P-8 you can go as low but in a smaller cabinet. The MW19P needs 25 to 30 liter to go that low, the MW16P only 20L. That makes the speaker more a real bookshelf and not a standmount (or very big bookshelf). The MW16P can still go to 102dB at 40Hz without exeding xmax, but will have better directivity and easier to crosso to a tweeter.
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A word of caution, If you are really are intent on a Bookshelf mounting position ?
Due to the bass boost you will have to be very careful to avoid not exciting room modes.
Most, if not all modern designs are not voiced for that location. Again Troels did a SEAS 8 based three way design that he called bookshelf, if i remember correctly. it maybe worth reading what he said about the LF aspect.
Not the easiest thing to work unless you factor it into the design, and better still if you can measure. If you had DSP capabilities you could use that to your advantage by controlling the LF characteristics.
Time for the Pub.
Due to the bass boost you will have to be very careful to avoid not exciting room modes.
Most, if not all modern designs are not voiced for that location. Again Troels did a SEAS 8 based three way design that he called bookshelf, if i remember correctly. it maybe worth reading what he said about the LF aspect.
Not the easiest thing to work unless you factor it into the design, and better still if you can measure. If you had DSP capabilities you could use that to your advantage by controlling the LF characteristics.
Time for the Pub.
The word bookshelf should be updated to freestanding speaker.
It allows more possibilities by definition
It allows more possibilities by definition
My Zingers and Pangolins somewhat come to mind. Both are 4 ohm designs. Both are bass reflex designs for better bass extension, and one uses an 8", and the other a 10".
The Zingers are simple 1ft^3 vented boxes with 6 parts in the xover each. This seems right up your alley. 86dB sensitivity.
The Pangolins are a hair smaller volume, differently dimensioned, use a PR, and have a lot more complicated xover. 89dB sensitivity.
They both could likely be had for your budget, but are not kits. You have to source the parts yourself.
The Zingers are simple 1ft^3 vented boxes with 6 parts in the xover each. This seems right up your alley. 86dB sensitivity.
The Pangolins are a hair smaller volume, differently dimensioned, use a PR, and have a lot more complicated xover. 89dB sensitivity.
They both could likely be had for your budget, but are not kits. You have to source the parts yourself.
I have 6 models of amps of 3 types and 3 sets of speakers. Dynaco ST70 (vacuum tube class AB transformer output) Dynaco ST120 (SS AB quasi-comp with capacitor output modified to eliminate OEM crossover distortion problems with 2 fans), Peavey CS800s (solid state AB full complimentary direct output through relay with fan), Peavey PV-4c (ss ab full complimentary direct output w/ fan) Peavey M-2600 (ss ab quasi comp direct output no fans) Peavey MMA-875t (SS ab transformer output no fans monaural) The only amp that sounds different is the ST70, with higher harmonic distortion: 1.5%. The ST120 is probably .5% HD, the others specified 0.1% or below. The speakers run from 1976 KLH23 (2 way 10" + 3" paper cone), home built visiton BG17-8 (full range 6.5" in cardboard boxes), Peavey SP2(2004) (15" woofer + 1" cd in plastic horn). The KLH23 are only okay and in storage. The BG17-8 fit under the TV on coffee table 1 m from chair and are okay driven by MMA-875t which can mute TV commercials. The SP2(2004) are mounted on stands 2 m in the air at one end of music room and are excellent. I listen to SP2 from 2.5 m away in a room 3.3 m W, 11 m L, 3.2 m H. SP2 have wide dispersion and sound is same when I walk around up to 8 m away, and highs slightly attenuated through the single door into the kitchen 10 m away. My music room is pretty dead with carpet, acoustic tile ceiling, book and record cases on the walls, couch & easy chair, 3 tables, 4 organs , 2 organ speakers and a piano. Furniture breaks up standing waves. I use M-2600 mostly on the SP2 because no fan. PV-4c was in TV room but was stolen.
BTW due to ear plug use in noisy sotutions since age 19 my hearing still goes to 14000 hz. I'm age 74.
Your topping and quad amps are probably SS class AB direct output.
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Tne PA5 is a class D switching mode amplifier arround the TPA3251 chip, not class AB. The Quad 990 is a current dumping class AB (like most Quad amps of that time). Both should have a high damping factor and be neutral to the speaker.
Thanks ! Looks good but the driver is 8 ohms, do you have any recommendations for 4 ohms
The 8 Ohm has the same sensivity and otherwise better specs, so no need to use the 4ohm. It will go as loud and your amp won't have problem to load it.