Re: Have a look at Wireless World
One of the pics tsneil posted shows that he has that article...
http://t-linespeakers.org/design/foldings/tttl.html
dave
timbarnes said:
One of the pics tsneil posted shows that he has that article...
http://t-linespeakers.org/design/foldings/tttl.html
dave
I actually have just these drivers and crossover in the original Bailey triangular cross-section design. Currently I am not using them as they do not suit the listening room. In the right (large, open, reasonably well damped) room they sound excellent, and worth building. 25 watts transistorised is enough for most people.
However, like all that generation, they can sound a bit woolly, so a three way active crossover, with special attention to the mid-range can help.
I have heard these drivers in many different enclosures. The TL's have always been best, but all designs are quite large physically. Because both box layout and cross-overs varied, the sound also tended to vary between designs, but I cannot recommend any particular one as I have never done realistic comparisons.
Kef also used a simple sealed box, using your crossover, which sounds quite good, is smaller, and much simpler to make, but the bass not so extended.. Frankly I would slam a rough set of these together to listen to, while you were making with more care a set of TL's with better cross-overs.
The alternative suggested of making satellites with the T27 and B110 could be used, (I also have a pair of these) perhaps as a BBC LS3 lookalike, but without a good sub (you can use one of the B139's), bass is lacking, and without a good crossover, the wooliness is emphasised. If interested in this route, I suggest you google the LS3.
When it comes down to it, realistically the design option should be chosen to suit the room you intend using them in. If a large room, go for TL's, a mid-sized room, the sealed boxes, and a small room the sub/sats.
I am not a fan of chip amps. The Linn amp I have uses these, and despite good reviews, sounds only average to me. Certainly not as good as a good discrete commercial amp. If you are building your own, I suggest using one of the class-D tripath amps. They are available in either kit or populated form. These tend to make the sound slightly "colder and crisper" as one of my friends put it, which would improve the original sound.
Have fun.
However, like all that generation, they can sound a bit woolly, so a three way active crossover, with special attention to the mid-range can help.
I have heard these drivers in many different enclosures. The TL's have always been best, but all designs are quite large physically. Because both box layout and cross-overs varied, the sound also tended to vary between designs, but I cannot recommend any particular one as I have never done realistic comparisons.
Kef also used a simple sealed box, using your crossover, which sounds quite good, is smaller, and much simpler to make, but the bass not so extended.. Frankly I would slam a rough set of these together to listen to, while you were making with more care a set of TL's with better cross-overs.
The alternative suggested of making satellites with the T27 and B110 could be used, (I also have a pair of these) perhaps as a BBC LS3 lookalike, but without a good sub (you can use one of the B139's), bass is lacking, and without a good crossover, the wooliness is emphasised. If interested in this route, I suggest you google the LS3.
When it comes down to it, realistically the design option should be chosen to suit the room you intend using them in. If a large room, go for TL's, a mid-sized room, the sealed boxes, and a small room the sub/sats.
I am not a fan of chip amps. The Linn amp I have uses these, and despite good reviews, sounds only average to me. Certainly not as good as a good discrete commercial amp. If you are building your own, I suggest using one of the class-D tripath amps. They are available in either kit or populated form. These tend to make the sound slightly "colder and crisper" as one of my friends put it, which would improve the original sound.
Have fun.
These just listed on e*** Australia, might be worth a look.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/KEF-B110-mid...3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:1|39:1|240:1318
If you can get a pair of the Vifa D26 Neo tweeters you will get very good C2C distance although if modifying that will need some playing with the XO
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/KEF-B110-mid...3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:1|39:1|240:1318
If you can get a pair of the Vifa D26 Neo tweeters you will get very good C2C distance although if modifying that will need some playing with the XO
Also these
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/KEF-SP1003-M...3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:1|39:1|240:1318
Yes, I'm at home with nothing to do today, all my tools are packed waiting to move house
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/KEF-SP1003-M...3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:1|39:1|240:1318
Yes, I'm at home with nothing to do today, all my tools are packed waiting to move house
Thanks for the links moondog, I’ll keep my eye on them and hopefully they won’t get too high. I’ve had some bad luck on ebay lately, I’ve been trying to win a turntable and have been sniped on 4 so far in the last few seconds.
I have found these http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=300294038306 too which would certainly make the task simpler. If I won these for a reasonable price I would only need to build a set of TLs for the woofers. What do you think?
I have found these http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=300294038306 too which would certainly make the task simpler. If I won these for a reasonable price I would only need to build a set of TLs for the woofers. What do you think?
Yeah it looks like they’re an exact fit for the drivers I have. Not sure what they will end up going for though, if they stay under $100 I’ll probably have a crack (a small price to pay to hang onto all my appendages!). It looks like they are in pretty good nick and I’m no woodworker so I’m sure the standard will be at least up to the standard of anything I can produce. I have no idea how I would rebate the B110 cut-out (easy enough for a round hole, but I presume I would need to make up a custom router jig to achieve the shape of the B110 mounting flange).
Thanks for the tip on the manhattans. They look very interesting, plus Andy is a fellow Novocastrian so I might be able to track him down for some tips at some stage in the future. Yeah the postage is a killer on those enclosures, but hopefully that will work in my favour, I am down in Sydney a fair bit so I can pick them up.
I’ve been thinking about the active setup a bit more. I have a 41Hz amp6basic that I can use for the tweeters (I was planning on using for a set of mFonkens or B3S for my PC in the future, but these can wait) and a currently not working (but hopefully repairable) amp9basic that I can use for the mids and bass. I could get a 3 way linkwitz board from ESP (P09 http://sound.westhost.com/pcb/pricelist.html) and feed the two amps. I’m sure there would be a fair bit of tweaking to get the sound right but it seems like it all fits pretty well.
I’ve been thinking about the active setup a bit more. I have a 41Hz amp6basic that I can use for the tweeters (I was planning on using for a set of mFonkens or B3S for my PC in the future, but these can wait) and a currently not working (but hopefully repairable) amp9basic that I can use for the mids and bass. I could get a 3 way linkwitz board from ESP (P09 http://sound.westhost.com/pcb/pricelist.html) and feed the two amps. I’m sure there would be a fair bit of tweaking to get the sound right but it seems like it all fits pretty well.
I can't help on the ESP boards ( I cheat and use a Behringer CX****)
But I have bought one of Rod's ELF boards which I hope to get populated in the near future.
IMO active is the way to go, 2-way bass/mid-tweeter or 3-way, you need to cross low anyway as the B-139 has some nasty breakups at around 1500hz ( so I understand anyway )
But I have bought one of Rod's ELF boards which I hope to get populated in the near future.
IMO active is the way to go, 2-way bass/mid-tweeter or 3-way, you need to cross low anyway as the B-139 has some nasty breakups at around 1500hz ( so I understand anyway )
Hi,
If you go for the Kan cabinets then you are in LS3/5A clone territory.
The SP1003 version of the B110 is much sought after as
a part for the original 15 ohm version of the LS3/5A.
(though it has to be said the LS3/5A versions were selected from
one side of a bell curve, so any other speakers with SP1003s are
most likely from the drivers after thsi selection process, OWT.)
Oodles of info on the net. Standard active crossovers (e.g. Rods)
will not work in controlling the midrange peak of the B110 or
the inherent baffle step effects of such a small cabinet.
Active will work if you can design bespoke c/o's, that is not easy.
Do some research. It is quite possible to tune the notch filter
accurately to the particular driver by ear if you have a pink
noise source and the ballpark attenuation is correct.
FWIW the maximum volume of the LS3/5A's is limited, still quite
limited when used in a sub/sat configuration, so the sub(s) should
concentrate more on bass extension than outright power handling.
http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/Anatomy/Anatomy.html
The problem with the above is it seems to ignore the midrange
issues of the B110 that you can see compensated in the KEF
CS1A crossover linked to below.
Mounting all drivers on a wider baffle and a higher crossover
frequency increases the nominal sensitivity above the LS3/5A.
I did convert a Concerto kit years ago to bass driver at the top
+ a small rigid low diffraction top cabinet, it did sound better,
but theoretically it should have been less flat due to BS issues.
http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/Anatomy/SpeakerSystems/LS3_5a/LS3_5aJohnSmith.html
http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jkaso/KEF_CROSS.jpg
The above KEF CS1A (for B110A SP1003; T27A SP1032) I surmise
would be your best bet rather than cloning the LS3/5As crossover.
Various options exist for the subwoofer as already described.
/sreten.
If you go for the Kan cabinets then you are in LS3/5A clone territory.
The SP1003 version of the B110 is much sought after as
a part for the original 15 ohm version of the LS3/5A.
(though it has to be said the LS3/5A versions were selected from
one side of a bell curve, so any other speakers with SP1003s are
most likely from the drivers after thsi selection process, OWT.)
Oodles of info on the net. Standard active crossovers (e.g. Rods)
will not work in controlling the midrange peak of the B110 or
the inherent baffle step effects of such a small cabinet.
Active will work if you can design bespoke c/o's, that is not easy.
Do some research. It is quite possible to tune the notch filter
accurately to the particular driver by ear if you have a pink
noise source and the ballpark attenuation is correct.
FWIW the maximum volume of the LS3/5A's is limited, still quite
limited when used in a sub/sat configuration, so the sub(s) should
concentrate more on bass extension than outright power handling.
http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/Anatomy/Anatomy.html
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The problem with the above is it seems to ignore the midrange
issues of the B110 that you can see compensated in the KEF
CS1A crossover linked to below.
Mounting all drivers on a wider baffle and a higher crossover
frequency increases the nominal sensitivity above the LS3/5A.
I did convert a Concerto kit years ago to bass driver at the top
+ a small rigid low diffraction top cabinet, it did sound better,
but theoretically it should have been less flat due to BS issues.
http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/Anatomy/SpeakerSystems/LS3_5a/LS3_5aJohnSmith.html
http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jkaso/KEF_CROSS.jpg
The above KEF CS1A (for B110A SP1003; T27A SP1032) I surmise
would be your best bet rather than cloning the LS3/5As crossover.
Various options exist for the subwoofer as already described.
/sreten.Hi tsnell
Congratulations on the "new" speakers.
I own a number of kef speakers including the LS3/5a, the 105 and an old concerto.
I think the best sound will be obtained from the the LS3/5a configuration - as sreten says you have the right model of B110. You can add a subwoofer to it using the B139. There is a design on the internet for that arrangement.
Kef produced two versions of the LS3/5a. one followed the original specifications. The other was a redesign by Kef. I prefer the second.
If you have trouble finding any of the designs or detailed specs on the speakers then e mail me.
Don
Congratulations on the "new" speakers.
I own a number of kef speakers including the LS3/5a, the 105 and an old concerto.
I think the best sound will be obtained from the the LS3/5a configuration - as sreten says you have the right model of B110. You can add a subwoofer to it using the B139. There is a design on the internet for that arrangement.
Kef produced two versions of the LS3/5a. one followed the original specifications. The other was a redesign by Kef. I prefer the second.
If you have trouble finding any of the designs or detailed specs on the speakers then e mail me.
Don
Then the best compromise is probably Bi-amping and crossing low.
Isn't it possible to use passive components after the electronic split to counter peaks and resonances in drivers?
The B-139 in a small sealed box models reasonably well and you could then use Rods ELF for the very low bass ( as I said I've not got around to trying but I hear good reports )
Good luck with the auction BTW, I'm watching what happens.
I would say that whatever XO you wind up using perhaps it should be mounted externally, that way it can be tweaked more easily
Isn't it possible to use passive components after the electronic split to counter peaks and resonances in drivers?
The B-139 in a small sealed box models reasonably well and you could then use Rods ELF for the very low bass ( as I said I've not got around to trying but I hear good reports )
Good luck with the auction BTW, I'm watching what happens.
I would say that whatever XO you wind up using perhaps it should be mounted externally, that way it can be tweaked more easily
tsnell
I would guess that either the LS3/5a plus a base unit or the transission line would both sound fine.
I would stick to the original cross over network that Kef designed if possible as I think they were well designed ( they included compensation specially designed to match each speaker characteristics ) and were good to listen to. If you want to criticise the old kef speakers I would say they were a little slow and a little less detailed than some modern speakers; however having said that I still think they sound very good and better than a lot of speakers around today - I guess that is why the second hand price is so high. ) Also I am not sure that you need to bi-amp as the original hard wired crossovers seemed ok to me.
Don
I would guess that either the LS3/5a plus a base unit or the transission line would both sound fine.
I would stick to the original cross over network that Kef designed if possible as I think they were well designed ( they included compensation specially designed to match each speaker characteristics ) and were good to listen to. If you want to criticise the old kef speakers I would say they were a little slow and a little less detailed than some modern speakers; however having said that I still think they sound very good and better than a lot of speakers around today - I guess that is why the second hand price is so high. ) Also I am not sure that you need to bi-amp as the original hard wired crossovers seemed ok to me.
Don
Whoa that’s a lot of responses yesterday, thanks everybody!
I put in a bid for $101 and got trumped straight away. Like you say Moondog, you can build a pretty nice set of boxes once your up to that kind of money so I gave up. I am happier building the whole lot anyway I think, it will let me customise everything and as PB2 points out “stay closer to the original intent”.
So now it’s back to the drawing board… I am still completely open to suggestions both in terms of enclosure and amplification. I have been thinking about the passive vs bi/tri amp debate though. Like I say, I have the Amp6 and Amp9 sitting here that I will be more than happy to use, but I do see the benefits of a passive crossover. I like the idea of passive for a few reasons;
• as Sreten said it more easily enables “controlling the midrange peak of the B110”,
• Plus (and probably more importantly since the intention is to build these for my friend who is not really into hifi) with a passive crossover it would mean just one set of speaker wires to plug into an amp and away he goes. The old KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) philosophy. I have the Yamaha A-700 at my place at the moment, it was making a horrible crackling but after a good clean out I think it sounds pretty damn good now, so if he is able to just plug them into that and get great sound it would be absolutely perfect.
Will definitely try out single/bi/tri amping, so the debate is far from dead yet, but there will need to be noticeable audible gains to make me head down the multi amp path when I hand it over to him. Keeping the XO external (moondog) is a good idea though and it will leave all possibilities open in the future (that’s how I have my eVe’s).
As for the enclosure, I am fairly well decided that the B139 enclosures will be separate TLs for left and right, along the lines of planet10 (post 21). But undecided on the B110 and T27 arrangement. Sreten can you please elaborate on “Mounting all drivers on a wider baffle and a higher crossover frequency increases the nominal sensitivity”, aren’t there major drawbacks for wide baffles for high/mid freq drivers (baffle step etc)?
Planet10 “I always just freehanded them using a small low power rockwell router” I wish I had as steady a hand as you my friend! I really don’t think I could manage this, but I’ll try if I need to… I’ll just make sure I have plenty of spare timber for new baffle attempts.
I put in a bid for $101 and got trumped straight away. Like you say Moondog, you can build a pretty nice set of boxes once your up to that kind of money so I gave up. I am happier building the whole lot anyway I think, it will let me customise everything and as PB2 points out “stay closer to the original intent”.
So now it’s back to the drawing board… I am still completely open to suggestions both in terms of enclosure and amplification. I have been thinking about the passive vs bi/tri amp debate though. Like I say, I have the Amp6 and Amp9 sitting here that I will be more than happy to use, but I do see the benefits of a passive crossover. I like the idea of passive for a few reasons;
• as Sreten said it more easily enables “controlling the midrange peak of the B110”,
• Plus (and probably more importantly since the intention is to build these for my friend who is not really into hifi) with a passive crossover it would mean just one set of speaker wires to plug into an amp and away he goes. The old KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) philosophy. I have the Yamaha A-700 at my place at the moment, it was making a horrible crackling but after a good clean out I think it sounds pretty damn good now, so if he is able to just plug them into that and get great sound it would be absolutely perfect.
Will definitely try out single/bi/tri amping, so the debate is far from dead yet, but there will need to be noticeable audible gains to make me head down the multi amp path when I hand it over to him. Keeping the XO external (moondog) is a good idea though and it will leave all possibilities open in the future (that’s how I have my eVe’s).
As for the enclosure, I am fairly well decided that the B139 enclosures will be separate TLs for left and right, along the lines of planet10 (post 21). But undecided on the B110 and T27 arrangement. Sreten can you please elaborate on “Mounting all drivers on a wider baffle and a higher crossover frequency increases the nominal sensitivity”, aren’t there major drawbacks for wide baffles for high/mid freq drivers (baffle step etc)?
Planet10 “I always just freehanded them using a small low power rockwell router” I wish I had as steady a hand as you my friend! I really don’t think I could manage this, but I’ll try if I need to… I’ll just make sure I have plenty of spare timber for new baffle attempts.
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