Hi this is my first post!!
Last week I bought a sony cd/mp3 player with ipod support. AS you can probably figure out, it sucks.
So, i'd like to build a pair of speakers with very good quality.
What I want:
1. Semi portable: these will be used mainly in a small dorm room, however i'd like to be able to move them occassional for pool parties and such.
2. Good audio quality. At least better than my Sony boombox.
3. Should get loud enough to fill a large room or pool party.
4. Nice bass. The sony boombox has a pathetic "Mega Bass".
5. Detailed midrange.
What I have:
1. An ipod.
2. Some wood.
3. Two Dayton RS180-4ohm drivers that a friend gave to me to get started.
What I need:
1. No clue!! Please help me out here!! Designs, advices, tutorials, any input is welcome!!
Last week I bought a sony cd/mp3 player with ipod support. AS you can probably figure out, it sucks.
So, i'd like to build a pair of speakers with very good quality.
What I want:
1. Semi portable: these will be used mainly in a small dorm room, however i'd like to be able to move them occassional for pool parties and such.
2. Good audio quality. At least better than my Sony boombox.
3. Should get loud enough to fill a large room or pool party.
4. Nice bass. The sony boombox has a pathetic "Mega Bass".
5. Detailed midrange.
What I have:
1. An ipod.
2. Some wood.
3. Two Dayton RS180-4ohm drivers that a friend gave to me to get started.
What I need:
1. No clue!! Please help me out here!! Designs, advices, tutorials, any input is welcome!!
ok, U asked for it...
Take the boom box back from whence it came.
Buy an iPod dock (for charging and audio out, and perhaps, a remote!).
get some tweeters to match the Daytons you friend gave you to get started and a crossover.(from www.partsexpress.com , check there DIY projects for some inspiration)
build some small boxes.
Buya Sonic T-amp (if not handy-on sale @ partsexpress for $25), or A 41Hz.com kit6Basic. Buy an elcheapo lap top comp power supply. Buy some RCA's , and binding posts, etc.
now you have an amp, a pair of decent speakers and a iPod dock.
done...
Take the boom box back from whence it came.
Buy an iPod dock (for charging and audio out, and perhaps, a remote!).
get some tweeters to match the Daytons you friend gave you to get started and a crossover.(from www.partsexpress.com , check there DIY projects for some inspiration)
build some small boxes.
Buya Sonic T-amp (if not handy-on sale @ partsexpress for $25), or A 41Hz.com kit6Basic. Buy an elcheapo lap top comp power supply. Buy some RCA's , and binding posts, etc.
now you have an amp, a pair of decent speakers and a iPod dock.
done...
Thanks for the reply Nanook.
1. I already returned the boombox.
2. An ipod dock.... will any of these do:
http://www.amazon.com/Apple-MA045G-...?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1187559511&sr=1-18
http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-33...?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1187559586&sr=1-51
http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-F8Z065...?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1187559609&sr=1-83
Are there cheaper alternatives for docking stations??
3. Matching tweeters... hmmm no clue what to do here. Will these do?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-130
4. Crossovers... again no clue which one to choose here. From my very limited caraudio knowledge I picked these ones. Will they work?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-140
5. Box building... I can do that. Any specific size, plan or recommendation? Is there any chance to go infinity baffle or is that out of the question?
6. I was looking at the recommended T-amp. I noticed that it is good for running with batteries. However, I'll always have a power source when using these speakers, so there is no need for a battery powered amp. Also, it has somewhat low rms ratings???
Any other recommendations?
Again, I appreciated everyones help and patience helping me with this project. I have searched and read a lot, and I'm willing to continue to read, learn & research before starting my project. Thanks, Andres.
1. I already returned the boombox.
2. An ipod dock.... will any of these do:
http://www.amazon.com/Apple-MA045G-...?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1187559511&sr=1-18
http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-33...?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1187559586&sr=1-51
http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-F8Z065...?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1187559609&sr=1-83
Are there cheaper alternatives for docking stations??
3. Matching tweeters... hmmm no clue what to do here. Will these do?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-130
4. Crossovers... again no clue which one to choose here. From my very limited caraudio knowledge I picked these ones. Will they work?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-140
5. Box building... I can do that. Any specific size, plan or recommendation? Is there any chance to go infinity baffle or is that out of the question?
6. I was looking at the recommended T-amp. I noticed that it is good for running with batteries. However, I'll always have a power source when using these speakers, so there is no need for a battery powered amp. Also, it has somewhat low rms ratings???
Any other recommendations?
Again, I appreciated everyones help and patience helping me with this project. I have searched and read a lot, and I'm willing to continue to read, learn & research before starting my project. Thanks, Andres.
WOW Saturnus, that is a great project!! Good luck on your next build!
However, I dont need my boombox to be battery portable. I wouldnt like to have to deal with batteries, solar panels, added weight & complication, etc.
Also, although I'm sure that your 360 degree sounds fantastic, its not what Im looking for. I would like to keep all the speakers facing the same side if possible.
I do have a couple of questions for you, Saturnus:
1. Which ipod connector did you use, does it charge the ipod?
2. How much does the Boominator weight?
Cheers, Andres.
However, I dont need my boombox to be battery portable. I wouldnt like to have to deal with batteries, solar panels, added weight & complication, etc.
Also, although I'm sure that your 360 degree sounds fantastic, its not what Im looking for. I would like to keep all the speakers facing the same side if possible.
I do have a couple of questions for you, Saturnus:
1. Which ipod connector did you use, does it charge the ipod?
2. How much does the Boominator weight?
Cheers, Andres.
some stuff...
ok, a docking station $19 with a cradle, remote, in car and home charging capabilities
Sonance tweeter from Apex Jr , $10/pr. Not sure of the efficiency.But if the response graph is accurate, then apparently smoother than the Dayton one you linked to
A more suitable crossover $32/pr on special
the Sonic Impact amp , $25 on special
the binding posts, $10 for 2 speakers' worth (4 pcs)
Ok, and now to answer some questions:
The Sonic Impact is pretty much a giant killer in terms of sound quality. There are enough posts on diyAudio about this and modifying it. For perhaps another 10-20 bucks. Check out panomaniac's site
Do a search and convince yourself, about the Sonic Impact on the web about it.
The drivers will need a .5 ft^3 enclosure w/2.68" X 8" vent, tuned to 39.6Hz. with 15 watts into 4 Ohms, the SI will drive these to 100dB easily, enought to get kicked outta most dorms
If others have suggestions then great, but this is my recommend. The design for the drivers is done, and so am I
ok, a docking station $19 with a cradle, remote, in car and home charging capabilities
Sonance tweeter from Apex Jr , $10/pr. Not sure of the efficiency.But if the response graph is accurate, then apparently smoother than the Dayton one you linked to
A more suitable crossover $32/pr on special
the Sonic Impact amp , $25 on special
the binding posts, $10 for 2 speakers' worth (4 pcs)
Ok, and now to answer some questions:
The Sonic Impact is pretty much a giant killer in terms of sound quality. There are enough posts on diyAudio about this and modifying it. For perhaps another 10-20 bucks. Check out panomaniac's site
Do a search and convince yourself, about the Sonic Impact on the web about it.
The drivers will need a .5 ft^3 enclosure w/2.68" X 8" vent, tuned to 39.6Hz. with 15 watts into 4 Ohms, the SI will drive these to 100dB easily, enought to get kicked outta most dorms
If others have suggestions then great, but this is my recommend. The design for the drivers is done, and so am I
Hmmm..........
FWIW the Dayton RS180 is one of the last drivers in the world you
would want to use a "stock" crossover with and the result of what
is outlined above will sound fairly dreadful.
The daytons are very good drivers but they are strictly not suitable
for hotch-potch crossover designs that simply do not work properly.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99839&highlight=
Shows the sort of notch circuit you need on metal cone drivers ......
You could do a lot worse than scaling this crossover for 4 ohms,
but also note cheap tweeters are out, they do not go low enough.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZBM4.html
Is a good example of a cost effective cheap design.
🙂/sreten.
edit : http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/podzuma/index.html?CFID=104556&CFTOKEN=15468895
may give you some ideas ......
FWIW the Dayton RS180 is one of the last drivers in the world you
would want to use a "stock" crossover with and the result of what
is outlined above will sound fairly dreadful.
The daytons are very good drivers but they are strictly not suitable
for hotch-potch crossover designs that simply do not work properly.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99839&highlight=
Shows the sort of notch circuit you need on metal cone drivers ......
You could do a lot worse than scaling this crossover for 4 ohms,
but also note cheap tweeters are out, they do not go low enough.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZBM4.html
Is a good example of a cost effective cheap design.
🙂/sreten.
edit : http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/podzuma/index.html?CFID=104556&CFTOKEN=15468895
may give you some ideas ......
I think you will need more power for a pool party. I have two RS180s in ported boxes powered by a 70 watt subwoofer plate amp. They are used as helper woofers up to about 180hz where my fullrange speakers take over. In a medium size room, the 70 watts produces loud sound, but just enough to make Tool/Metallica type music sound effective. I have a Panasonic SA-XR55 receiver that pushes the main speakers with 100 watts, which gets too loud only when it runs out of power.
I also have a T-amp, but it really only satisfies when I sit one meter away from the speakers, plus the bass rolls off, which would be noticable with the speakers that you have.
The RS180s sound great, but because they are metal, you will have to use quite a few components in the crossover. Here are a few designs. If I were you, I would pick one and copy it. Then you will know that you will get great sound:
http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/DaytonRS7/Cryolite.htm
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2402844&pagenumber=1
These might be the best design, but the parts cost will be fairly high:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154
and some pictures of that design:
http://speakerbuilder.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_speakerbuilder_archive.html
I also have a T-amp, but it really only satisfies when I sit one meter away from the speakers, plus the bass rolls off, which would be noticable with the speakers that you have.
The RS180s sound great, but because they are metal, you will have to use quite a few components in the crossover. Here are a few designs. If I were you, I would pick one and copy it. Then you will know that you will get great sound:
http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/DaytonRS7/Cryolite.htm
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2402844&pagenumber=1
These might be the best design, but the parts cost will be fairly high:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154
and some pictures of that design:
http://speakerbuilder.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_speakerbuilder_archive.html
Thanks Nanook...
For helping me getting started on a list of things that I need.
However, I still don't know what to think about a 6rms amp?? -- How will this compare to a receiver that puts out 50+ rms per channel??
For helping me getting started on a list of things that I need.
However, I still don't know what to think about a 6rms amp?? -- How will this compare to a receiver that puts out 50+ rms per channel??
bizza said:
Actually I don't use an iPod but a Zen Micro. Same thing though. The Boominator is fed with a headphone output from any device, and it's got a car USB power supply which can feed and charge most MP3 players on the market. It's a standard cigarette lighter power adapter though so any car adapter can be used, if a device requires a special power supply.
It weighs 26 kilos with batteries, and 21 kilos without. The charger I'm using will function as a 14 volt power supply if no battery is attached, and if you don't need solar cells, don't buy them. The Boominator will work fine without them.
There are several reasons why there's speakers on both sides. Getting 360 sound was not a design consideration as such but was a useful benefit. You see, it's designed for outdoor or very large room use, and to countereffect the bass drop I could have mounted the woofers on the same side but I would then have had to filter one of them over 500Hz. Mounting the speaker on opposite sides means the filtering is done for free acousticly. Also when you mount two speakers magnet to magnet, you focus the magnetic flux in the airgap get a little higher sensitivity for free, and at the same time cancelling stray magnetic fields. The third reason is cabinet strength, even though I only use 12mm ply there's almost no vibrations, eventhough only the top, bottom, and ends are braced with a center brace that also holds the speaker magnets in place.
All in all, don't ditch the dualside design before you've tried it, since it's especially developed for a purpose such as yours. If you're absolute positive you won't ever need 360 sound, then don't install tweeters on one side.
Some more stuff to consider...
bizza , I didn't realize that you weren't after a complete package. A good 50 intergrated or receiver certainly is a good idea, particularly if you alread own one (an Audiolab 5000A comes to mind). The SI amp is closer to 14 watts RMS/ch into 4 Ohms, but has great sound
sreten : using a prebuilt crossover was due to bizza's comment considering crossover design. It seems to me that partexpress should know their own products (Dayton being their own brand)."hotch-potch" is certainly not what comes to mind when considering what I proposed, just fairly quick and convenient. I can't say that the Sonace tweeters are bad, just inexpensive.
I'll read through your thread link, but simpler is almost always better. Maybe I've completely missed something here...
happy.gringo : I'll read through those too.Thge Panny digital receivers are an alternative I hadn't though of because I thought it was a boombox "replacement" that was sought.
Perhaps a better idea of realistic budget could be provided. That way bizza can spend all his/her tuition $$ on audio and starve the rest of the year
bizza , I didn't realize that you weren't after a complete package. A good 50 intergrated or receiver certainly is a good idea, particularly if you alread own one (an Audiolab 5000A comes to mind). The SI amp is closer to 14 watts RMS/ch into 4 Ohms, but has great sound
sreten : using a prebuilt crossover was due to bizza's comment considering crossover design. It seems to me that partexpress should know their own products (Dayton being their own brand)."hotch-potch" is certainly not what comes to mind when considering what I proposed, just fairly quick and convenient. I can't say that the Sonace tweeters are bad, just inexpensive.
I'll read through your thread link, but simpler is almost always better. Maybe I've completely missed something here...
happy.gringo : I'll read through those too.Thge Panny digital receivers are an alternative I hadn't though of because I thought it was a boombox "replacement" that was sought.
Perhaps a better idea of realistic budget could be provided. That way bizza can spend all his/her tuition $$ on audio and starve the rest of the year
Re: Some more stuff to consider...
Hi,
Simpler is almost always better ? Ignorance is bliss ?
Take a look at the drivers frequency response, PDF at PE.
The simplistic crossovers require you to use a Zobel on the bass
/ mid and do not include any form of baffle step compensation,
or treble attenuation. The "detailed specification" for that c/o
has no facility for 4 ohm drivers, just identical 8R values.
Its all just so wrong ....... And trust me will not work well .....
🙂/sreten.
Nanook said:
Hi,
Simpler is almost always better ? Ignorance is bliss ?
Take a look at the drivers frequency response, PDF at PE.
The simplistic crossovers require you to use a Zobel on the bass
/ mid and do not include any form of baffle step compensation,
or treble attenuation. The "detailed specification" for that c/o
has no facility for 4 ohm drivers, just identical 8R values.
Its all just so wrong ....... And trust me will not work well .....
🙂/sreten.
A word about amps.
You can use the Sonic Impact to start, it will "work." But you probably do need more power.
The AMP6 Basic from 41Hz.com would be a better choice, if you feel up to the soldering. Not really much more power, but it sure sounds like it!
So that will give you a start. Some guys have been perfectly happy with that. If it's not enough power, you might look into a conventional "Chip Amp" as seen on the Chip Amp forum here on diyAudio.com
As you don't care to run on batteries it make higher power easy for you.
You can use the Sonic Impact to start, it will "work." But you probably do need more power.
The AMP6 Basic from 41Hz.com would be a better choice, if you feel up to the soldering. Not really much more power, but it sure sounds like it!
So that will give you a start. Some guys have been perfectly happy with that. If it's not enough power, you might look into a conventional "Chip Amp" as seen on the Chip Amp forum here on diyAudio.com
As you don't care to run on batteries it make higher power easy for you.
Fine, I'm sold on the Sonic Impact as a starters amp!!
Next, I need to find a design, preferably with decent bass. The RS Modula MT seems like a good option. Does anyone have a crossover recommendation that will work with my Dayton 4 ohm driver?? -- Any other suggestion?
Also, when I finally do purchase the Sonic amp, I'd like to get all the other things from Parts express at the same time. I know I need a power supply, but what else?? --wires, connectors, etc....
Next, I need to find a design, preferably with decent bass. The RS Modula MT seems like a good option. Does anyone have a crossover recommendation that will work with my Dayton 4 ohm driver?? -- Any other suggestion?
Also, when I finally do purchase the Sonic amp, I'd like to get all the other things from Parts express at the same time. I know I need a power supply, but what else?? --wires, connectors, etc....
sreten...
I'm looking at some of the crossover software now.And reading the posts and links
But, please don't try to make insightful comments about my psyche. You've done this in the past on other threads and made pretty bold statements concerning myself.
and simpler is almost always better (really if the drivers can take it, 2nd order Xovers often sound better. Or better yet maybe bizza could resort to my faves--fullranges, and hence not Xover dependant).
I'm looking at some of the crossover software now.And reading the posts and links
But, please don't try to make insightful comments about my psyche. You've done this in the past on other threads and made pretty bold statements concerning myself.
and simpler is almost always better (really if the drivers can take it, 2nd order Xovers often sound better. Or better yet maybe bizza could resort to my faves--fullranges, and hence not Xover dependant).
Re: sreten...
Hi,
I was postulating an argument rather trying to comment
on a persons attitude or make statements about a person.
Everyone has different opinions and I reserve the right to
be occasionally a little belligerent, this is usually when it
seems to me common sense is being ignored.
Simpler is better if its applicable, in this case with that driver,
there is no simple way to do it, 4kHz to 8Khz response rises
by around 20dB and a 2nd order L/R cannot handle it.
JayWJ's crossover is a simple as it gets for that type of driver.
Your assertion that the crossover and the driver are related
because they are both Dayton products is not true. The driver
and the crossover are aimed at different ends of the market,
and different approaches to building / designing loudspeakers.
For an example of fixing it after the fact see :
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/sc51/crossover.cfm
The detailed specification of 260-142 seems to be wrong .......
Note the added zobel and the 16R !? baffle step resistor.
The 4 ohm RS180 is a good driver, but not as smooth as the 8 ohm
version, it requires a designed crossover that produces something
near 4th order L/R acoustic crossover slopes around 2 to 2.5 K,
and at the same time suppresses the break up 4k to 12K.
With that tweeter and its Fs near 1.5K this must also be included
in the crossover design - and you are assuming the tweeter
has no low treble power handling / distortion issues.
If the above is done a good small speaker with very clean bass
will emerge but it will need juice to get it going, 10w is not enough.
For 10W a high efficiency speaker is needed, but generally these
do not have the bass excursion to do parties, and if connected
to a more powerful amplifier are unlikely to survive the party.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1731
Is an option worth considering.
🙂/sreten.
If the above is too "dinky" consider :
http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html
Nanook said:
Hi,
I was postulating an argument rather trying to comment
on a persons attitude or make statements about a person.
Everyone has different opinions and I reserve the right to
be occasionally a little belligerent, this is usually when it
seems to me common sense is being ignored.
Simpler is better if its applicable, in this case with that driver,
there is no simple way to do it, 4kHz to 8Khz response rises
by around 20dB and a 2nd order L/R cannot handle it.
JayWJ's crossover is a simple as it gets for that type of driver.
Your assertion that the crossover and the driver are related
because they are both Dayton products is not true. The driver
and the crossover are aimed at different ends of the market,
and different approaches to building / designing loudspeakers.
For an example of fixing it after the fact see :
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/sc51/crossover.cfm
The detailed specification of 260-142 seems to be wrong .......
Note the added zobel and the 16R !? baffle step resistor.
The 4 ohm RS180 is a good driver, but not as smooth as the 8 ohm
version, it requires a designed crossover that produces something
near 4th order L/R acoustic crossover slopes around 2 to 2.5 K,
and at the same time suppresses the break up 4k to 12K.
With that tweeter and its Fs near 1.5K this must also be included
in the crossover design - and you are assuming the tweeter
has no low treble power handling / distortion issues.
If the above is done a good small speaker with very clean bass
will emerge but it will need juice to get it going, 10w is not enough.
For 10W a high efficiency speaker is needed, but generally these
do not have the bass excursion to do parties, and if connected
to a more powerful amplifier are unlikely to survive the party.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1731
Is an option worth considering.
🙂/sreten.
If the above is too "dinky" consider :
http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html
ok, so let's try this again....
sreten, I guess I took your comment personally, and probably shouln't have. And I'm no electrical engineer 🙂 , so I should look from where your comments regarding crossovers come from a little more closely. I also understand that the Dayton xovers are just a readimade solution that are not optimized.
bizza: a good quality receiver would be suitable , or a more powerfull T-amp kit such as the 41Hz kits panomaniac suggested or pre-built, like the Panny XR receivers or the Audiosource /Carver digital amps. I have the 41Hz Amp6 Basic and really enjoy it, but use it with 95dB efficient fullrangers. Jan has kits that have 50-100 watts per channel too.
Speaker choices would be completely different. Depends on how occasional the party duties would be. As sreten (and others) have pointed out, efficient speakers are a must if using the Sonic Impact amplifier.
You may be better off starting fresh and give the RS180-4s to a friend for car audio (or use em yourself for that purpose). Build one of the already designed speakers (like Zaph or Tony Glee's designs--there are lots of others as well). Then the choice would be how large (physically) your new speakers would be.
sreten, I guess I took your comment personally, and probably shouln't have. And I'm no electrical engineer 🙂 , so I should look from where your comments regarding crossovers come from a little more closely. I also understand that the Dayton xovers are just a readimade solution that are not optimized.
bizza: a good quality receiver would be suitable , or a more powerfull T-amp kit such as the 41Hz kits panomaniac suggested or pre-built, like the Panny XR receivers or the Audiosource /Carver digital amps. I have the 41Hz Amp6 Basic and really enjoy it, but use it with 95dB efficient fullrangers. Jan has kits that have 50-100 watts per channel too.
Speaker choices would be completely different. Depends on how occasional the party duties would be. As sreten (and others) have pointed out, efficient speakers are a must if using the Sonic Impact amplifier.
You may be better off starting fresh and give the RS180-4s to a friend for car audio (or use em yourself for that purpose). Build one of the already designed speakers (like Zaph or Tony Glee's designs--there are lots of others as well). Then the choice would be how large (physically) your new speakers would be.
One other option would be to use the Hawthorne audio silver iris 15s, but they would cost $300 plus shipping, import tax, etc. I usually bring speakers in my luggage when I return from the States to avoid all that, so if you had some friends coming down....
These include crossovers and only need to be mounted on a 18" wide board or so, with wings to hold it up. They should get loud with whatever amp you choose.
They also have a 10", but they say it doesn't have the 'slam' of the bigger one.
These include crossovers and only need to be mounted on a 18" wide board or so, with wings to hold it up. They should get loud with whatever amp you choose.
They also have a 10", but they say it doesn't have the 'slam' of the bigger one.
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