"What you could do is eliminate the cavity of the compression horn which, will make the box smaller in height. Or, eliminate the cavity of the compression horn and make the mouths of the kick bin longer. The second option will allow the kick to play even louder. The bigger the mouth, the louder the sound. Thats how all horns work."
~ I get this but I don't really wana spend the time redesigning that cab (that im already not stoked about) if I could just use something else.
"Low Mids/Mid Bass/Kicks are the same thing. It just depends on which part of the world you reside in on how it is worded."
~I disagree. My subs are subs. My kicks are kicks. My mids are mids. My highs are highs. The subs are 20hz to 150-200hz since I have two different sub cabs atm. The kicks are 80 to 800-1k but I've also ran those 4x altec 816's solo before 50-400 as solo low end for a 2nd stage and it worked out okay with some full range 15+horn tops. Where my mid range cabs are double 15s 45hz to 2.5k for the 15s before cutting off for the horns from 2.5k to 20k. So when I talk about kicks I'm purely talking about under 1k, when I talk mids I'm talking about above kicks.
"You definitely want a horn if you are looking for a strong attack. If you are certain you are never going to play vocals, then you can look more towards a folded horn for kicks. But! The average vocal range reaches down to 100 Hz. In a folded horn, the vocals will sound like someone is mumbling whereas, in a straight horn the lower vocal range will have more definition. Even though you are not interested in the vocal range, the kick hovers in mid to lower vocal range."
~Its not that I don't play vocals, its just I have other speakers that already cover that hz range pretty well in my double 15 w/horn's, I got 4x of them and they are pretty overkill, I really don't think I need anymore horns or anymore mids above 1k... However there is a dip in my system between 150-200hz where my subs stop and 800-1k for that upper punch range. Generally I'll try to pull my kicks down to 800-900 if I start hearing vocals in them since the goal is not to be a low-mid cab, but rather a kick above the sub, I can already hear vocals screaming loud to the point where I only use my double 15 w/horn front of house mains at maybe 60% volume cuz nobody can get near the stage (or the bass) if I turn those up anymore.
Vocals get played out of my system, I'm just saying I don't need anymore vocal reinforcement, I only need kicks below 800-1k.
"Personally, I have always used straight horns above 90 Hz and let my subs pick up from where the straight horns left off. "
Thats more or less what I'm aiming for here, the two combined to cover my low end growl and punch/kick.
"That's MDF. MDF is garbage when you have to move them about. I have a few old Altec 816 Style MDF boxes myself. I was rattling them apart once I started feeding 600 watts in them. Ended up dumpling truck bed liner on them, pulling out my drill and, screwing up the boxes with 2 inch drywalls. Oh, and stuffing the back of the flares with blankets for they would ring like bell. It helped until I started putting 1300 watts..... they are now retired. I cannot complain though. I bought 8 boxes for $80.00 back in 1987 so I got my moneys worth out of them."
I've been feeding 600w to them, 2400w to four and.... yeah, I rattled them apart till the glue came undone between the boards and the staple thin finishing nails started coming out of the other board.... I legit had to re wood glue them and clamp them, than re-finish them with bedliner, than toss some chicken wire grills on them cuz some folks punched out the original drivers at a show. They look hella ghetto, two cabs have corners damaged to the point where its a hole... But somehow they still kick so much *** so I haven't been able to throw them away without something else taking their place.
"A horizontal splay versus a vertical splay narrows the beam-width so you have better control on where the sound is going. Straight horns definitely kicks harder in your face once you configure the flare vertically than horizontally from my experience. A lot of these new designs are just old forgotten designs resurrected from dead crafted to be more usable in this day in age."
Yeah I figured I wouldn't really want to toss a cab on its side due to the horn path.... Thats why the altec a7 "theater of sound" cab looks so good to me, not only does it have good response but its also the right dimentions to fit ontop of my subs unlike these 816's.
I thought this paraflex cab was pretty cool looking design wise and size wise it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for in a double, but its dual 12 not dual 15... suppose I could scale it up but finding a high qms, low qts/qes for a cheap price is easier said than done.. using the $100 kappa 12s however seems within my price range, altho, I would have prefered to use the kappa 15's already in my altecs but the qms isn't as high and the qts/qes is much higher so I'm not sure if scailing it up to 15s would be worth it when it seems like the 12s are superior for this type of build. Only thing I don't like about this paraflex cab is that its designed for full range and they are trying to push the dual 12 to 1.8-2khz to match the mid/horn of the 3-way... where I would be looking to purely push this as hard as possible as kicks to 1k so I'm not sure if this is a ideal design either however the 'look" of it is exactly what I had in mind when thinking about what I wanted ontop of my 18s.
The dual 12 with ports on each side in my opinion "looks" like the best design, however I'm not totally sure if it performs any better than the dual 12 with the one port on the right side, or the single 15 altec re-design with two side ports instead of the single bottom port.
~ I get this but I don't really wana spend the time redesigning that cab (that im already not stoked about) if I could just use something else.
"Low Mids/Mid Bass/Kicks are the same thing. It just depends on which part of the world you reside in on how it is worded."
~I disagree. My subs are subs. My kicks are kicks. My mids are mids. My highs are highs. The subs are 20hz to 150-200hz since I have two different sub cabs atm. The kicks are 80 to 800-1k but I've also ran those 4x altec 816's solo before 50-400 as solo low end for a 2nd stage and it worked out okay with some full range 15+horn tops. Where my mid range cabs are double 15s 45hz to 2.5k for the 15s before cutting off for the horns from 2.5k to 20k. So when I talk about kicks I'm purely talking about under 1k, when I talk mids I'm talking about above kicks.
"You definitely want a horn if you are looking for a strong attack. If you are certain you are never going to play vocals, then you can look more towards a folded horn for kicks. But! The average vocal range reaches down to 100 Hz. In a folded horn, the vocals will sound like someone is mumbling whereas, in a straight horn the lower vocal range will have more definition. Even though you are not interested in the vocal range, the kick hovers in mid to lower vocal range."
~Its not that I don't play vocals, its just I have other speakers that already cover that hz range pretty well in my double 15 w/horn's, I got 4x of them and they are pretty overkill, I really don't think I need anymore horns or anymore mids above 1k... However there is a dip in my system between 150-200hz where my subs stop and 800-1k for that upper punch range. Generally I'll try to pull my kicks down to 800-900 if I start hearing vocals in them since the goal is not to be a low-mid cab, but rather a kick above the sub, I can already hear vocals screaming loud to the point where I only use my double 15 w/horn front of house mains at maybe 60% volume cuz nobody can get near the stage (or the bass) if I turn those up anymore.
Vocals get played out of my system, I'm just saying I don't need anymore vocal reinforcement, I only need kicks below 800-1k.
"Personally, I have always used straight horns above 90 Hz and let my subs pick up from where the straight horns left off. "
Thats more or less what I'm aiming for here, the two combined to cover my low end growl and punch/kick.
"That's MDF. MDF is garbage when you have to move them about. I have a few old Altec 816 Style MDF boxes myself. I was rattling them apart once I started feeding 600 watts in them. Ended up dumpling truck bed liner on them, pulling out my drill and, screwing up the boxes with 2 inch drywalls. Oh, and stuffing the back of the flares with blankets for they would ring like bell. It helped until I started putting 1300 watts..... they are now retired. I cannot complain though. I bought 8 boxes for $80.00 back in 1987 so I got my moneys worth out of them."
I've been feeding 600w to them, 2400w to four and.... yeah, I rattled them apart till the glue came undone between the boards and the staple thin finishing nails started coming out of the other board.... I legit had to re wood glue them and clamp them, than re-finish them with bedliner, than toss some chicken wire grills on them cuz some folks punched out the original drivers at a show. They look hella ghetto, two cabs have corners damaged to the point where its a hole... But somehow they still kick so much *** so I haven't been able to throw them away without something else taking their place.
"A horizontal splay versus a vertical splay narrows the beam-width so you have better control on where the sound is going. Straight horns definitely kicks harder in your face once you configure the flare vertically than horizontally from my experience. A lot of these new designs are just old forgotten designs resurrected from dead crafted to be more usable in this day in age."
Yeah I figured I wouldn't really want to toss a cab on its side due to the horn path.... Thats why the altec a7 "theater of sound" cab looks so good to me, not only does it have good response but its also the right dimentions to fit ontop of my subs unlike these 816's.
I thought this paraflex cab was pretty cool looking design wise and size wise it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for in a double, but its dual 12 not dual 15... suppose I could scale it up but finding a high qms, low qts/qes for a cheap price is easier said than done.. using the $100 kappa 12s however seems within my price range, altho, I would have prefered to use the kappa 15's already in my altecs but the qms isn't as high and the qts/qes is much higher so I'm not sure if scailing it up to 15s would be worth it when it seems like the 12s are superior for this type of build. Only thing I don't like about this paraflex cab is that its designed for full range and they are trying to push the dual 12 to 1.8-2khz to match the mid/horn of the 3-way... where I would be looking to purely push this as hard as possible as kicks to 1k so I'm not sure if this is a ideal design either however the 'look" of it is exactly what I had in mind when thinking about what I wanted ontop of my 18s.
The dual 12 with ports on each side in my opinion "looks" like the best design, however I'm not totally sure if it performs any better than the dual 12 with the one port on the right side, or the single 15 altec re-design with two side ports instead of the single bottom port.
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OMNIFEX said:
GreenSpade said:
Everything is frequency based. You cannot separate what you consider Kicks when those frequencies fall within the midrange frequencies based on your tuning settings on your crossover.
This is why I said...
OMNIFEX said:
GreenSpade said:
So your weakest link is your boxes. Have you even considered that your issue could be overlapping crossover points that is causing phase issues?
Here are the phase issues I see
GreenSpade said:
Two different subs playing same frequencies = Phase Issues
GreenSpade said:
Overlapping frequencies using your kick box on top of two different subs = Phase Issues
Before you build anything try this.
Play only your kick bin. Turn on your subs. If you hear the kick sounds lower with the subs on than off you are having phase issues. Process and eliminate. Turn on and off each of your un-identical subs to determine which one of your subs is adding or reducing the sound of the kick coming from your kick bin sitting on top of your subs.
Its Friday so, I have to start rolling out the system. I will be back Monday. Just giving you a heads up.
I'm not really looking to argue with you on forums about wrong terminology, I explained what I was saying and I'm not looking to have you pick it apart cuz you dislike how I'm describing things.
I mean I'll humor you I guess even tho this is not the subject I brought up to talk about here; how does a sub maxing at 150-200hz give me a dip above 200hz with phasing? I mean from my point of view, theres a dip there cuz thats where the subs cut off and no longer produce anything above that point.... But your saying that the dip in volume on my system above 200hz is from phasing of subs? I'm just not seeing it or how this has anything to do with the kicks that are above the subs, but thanks for your input I guess.
Again the subs playing the same freq as each other has nothing to do with above 200hz dip. If you can't use two subs playing the same freq than how do people get away with entire walls of subs? Obviously you can play subs with the same freq... Not sure why we're talking about my subs when this is a kick bin thread, but here we are, sorry I brought them up cuz your gona have a hard time getting past this derailment and back on subject; the kick bins.
Again I'm not seeing how the subs, that only go to 200hz, are somehow going to phase the kicks above 200hz? I'm just simply not seeing how this is possible.
I don't even know where to start with this. First off, my kicks are not ontop of my subs as I clearly stated thats what I WANT TO DO but is NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
So I can't just "try kicks from ontop of my subs" cuz I haven't made the cabs yet... this whole thread is about what cab to make in order to properly fit this situation of kicks ontop of subs... so clearly I don't have the ability to do this currently with my altec 816's being too big to fit ontop of my subs.
As for "listening for phasing issues".. whats the point of this exactly when I have a rta mic? I can see the dip, not just guess at hearing where it is, I can physically see whats going on. You turn the kick bins off, magically theres a volume drop where the kick bins would've been above 200hz, you turn them on and the volume drop goes away above 200hz, is this not the same thing your talking about but with actual proof by having a rta mic with laptop screen readout?
You seem to be confused about my issue here, I'm not having phasing issues between my subs and kicks, my kicks are not ontop of my subs yet and my kicks are not being reduced by my subs, they are extremely noticable when I turn them on, I just want them relocated from beside my line of 18s to ontop of my line of 18s.
Ideally I'd need at least 2-4 double 12 or double 15 bins to fit across the line of 18s, or twice that in singles.
Could I tighten things up once I get to that point? Sure. But I'm not there yet, so I can't test something I don't even have yet and I'm not having the problems your describing of reduced hz range from phasing issues, in fact, my low end looks pretty boosted up to bout 600-800hz than pulled down n flattened out above that till 20k.
I don't run horn subs or scoops, they are all dual 18 BR cabs kinda like a gsub with side ports instead of center, so I don't have issues with my sound, I'm happy with how things are, however the "Main Problem" is this; as I build more double 18 subs, I have less room on the sides for the altec 816 kick bins. We transitioned last year from side by side 2 on each side with double 15 w/horn ontop of it to make a 6x 15 w/ 2x horn stack on each side of the sound system, to both altecs stacked ontop of each other with a double 15 w/horn ontop of it for a 4x 15 stack on each side while having the last pair of double 15's put back behind the stage to hit both the dj and than beyond to the front of the stage. The wall of speakers are maybe 4-5 feet in front of the dj and all the cabs are low ms delay br cabs so it works out well. Again the problem is that these altecs won't have a place to stand soon here when I move this fresh pair of double 18s into the lineup, we'll be removing that 2x altec stack from each side (4x total) in order to make room for another pair of double 18s... However this would mean removing our only kicks by removing the altecs, so thats why I'm looking for a replacement kick bin that can sit ontop of the bins, cuz these altecs can't, plus they are super old n damaged, they need to be replaced.
Hope that all makes more sense after reading that, I'm not complaining about a phasing issue, only you have brought that up. To be honest I would've prefered to hear your opinion on those 3 cab desgins I linked instead of derailing to talk about subs that are not even the issue.
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I checked this out and in my previous post (top of 3d page now) I linked 3x photos of their cab designs.
Do you have any input on these designs? The crappy drawing you produced (no offense) reminds me of their newest design (that I linked a picture of in my previous post) however the other two cab designs are both double 12 or double 15 designs, in particular, the one with side ports, one on each side with dual 15 looks pretty legitimate.. however from looking at things, it seems like the dual 12 would give more of a punch in the range I want plus would have cheaper drivers cuz its harder to find a high qms sub with low qes/qts in order to fit this type of cab design for a decent price.
So I'm more leaning towards that dual 12 or dual 15 design.. but they are trying to design these to be full range cabs? Ugh!
Even that new single 15 cab makes me scratch my head cuz it effectively looks like a altec 816 but with a port on each side instead of two bottom ports (one port split in two by center bracing) so this makes me think that something like that or a altec a7 might actually be what I want.
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I would argue that their resent designs are quite close to my original ROAR-design, and they have been getting closer and closer to my design as time goes on. There is no problem making a 212 or 115 kick-ROAR or any similar high order quarter wave bandpass alignment with a large planar wave front resonator. I have not heard their designs, but considering how close they are to the ROAR-design I would guess that they sound spectacularly good.
I recommend their C2D 1x12 kick bin, which seems very nice and well designed.
My crappy sketch was a 3 minute sketch to show the general layout and proportions only.
Planar wave devices usually have a very hard, tactile and punchy sound. Even more so then pure mid bass horns. But their drawback is the limited bandwidth and the deep suckout above the passband.
Regards,
Johannes
Only problem I can see with a 2x15 is that you can only stack them one ontop of the other by duplacating the design ontop of the 1x15 to make the 2x15....
While the design I listed above is two drivers side by side to make a wider cab instead of a taller cab.
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It clears up a lot of things.
Let explain how I do things. I have helped many guys for decades that build their own boxes and, one thing is certain. I must take into consideration a wide variety of things before I offer an opinion because they are home made boxes. Home made boxes do not offer PDF documentations in which, I can download and read, to find out about the box's performance. The pictures of three boxes you offered does not show at bare minimum a frequency response graph. Upload the frequency response graphs of the boxes in question and I will offer an opinion.
I fully agree, at least a frequency plot or a detailed info about the build (driver, boxplan, ...) is a minimum to judge a speaker. A picture does not tell anything.
Johannes,
I guess loading this cabinet with two FPro 10HP1020 will have greater kick results and with some small tweakings, it can be a Dual purpose cab, stand-alone bass for small parties and Kick for larger setups. Having that 24" cube dimension and built in 15mm ply with proper handles can also be possible for a one man lift cab. 🙂
Black curve is with Faital Pro 10HP1020 and grey curve is with RCF L10-750YK.
I would prefer the RCF L10-750YK for a pure midbass application. If tuned a few Hz lower and with a slightly smaller cross section area then a pair of 10HP1020 would be quite formidable. There is always the risk of turbulence in the pipe sections with very high power density drivers like the 10HP1020. I would recommend substantial radiuses on all the edges within the ROAR box.
Oops, my assumption was wrong.
However, based on this HR driver comparison, can I say that modern cabinet designs doesn't necessarily have to be loaded with modern powerful drivers.
Here, I found another 10" driver which might be a good candidate for this KICK ROAR cab.
Note: Sorry, I'm using macbook so can't do hornresp.
16F wide wall of kicks with 8x bins of those, sounds like it'll fit nicely ontop of my 18.3F wide wall of subs giving me a total of 66 inch tall between the two cabinets.
Using 8x Eminence 114489 15" drivers that have over 6 times the motor force of my previous kick bins drivers.
Using 8x Eminence 114489 15" drivers that have over 6 times the motor force of my previous kick bins drivers.
Plan on cutting my subs 30-90hz and running the c-2d's 90-400hz.
All matching cabinets now so 8x matching dual 18 subwoofers and 8x matching c-2d kick bins ontop of them.
Gona run my dual 15 + horn 2-way tops as a 3-piece center array by triangle'n them together 400-20khz
All matching cabinets now so 8x matching dual 18 subwoofers and 8x matching c-2d kick bins ontop of them.
Gona run my dual 15 + horn 2-way tops as a 3-piece center array by triangle'n them together 400-20khz
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if your build is done, try to send in some pics of those 16F wide C-2D kicks and 18.3F wide subs. 🙂
You didn't mention on what specific type of 18" subs you are using but from my opinion, those 2 X 15"+ horn tops can definitely cross your subs efficiently without the need of Kick bins.