Plans like this kick bin?

GreenSpade

Member
2011-12-22 2:38 pm
I've had these nameless kick bins for a while now and they kick pretty dang good having both a front chamber and a back chamber with a port with some kappa 15's in it.

Basically the version I have isn't exactly what I want, shape wise, I'd like them to sit ontop of my subs but its not happening, plus they are old and I'd like to retire & replace them.

So I'm wondering if there is another kick design like this, the main focus wouldn't be max spl but rather lowest ms delay and least muddy sound.

When I say kick bin I mean something from 60-80hz up to say 220-400hz. These lil boxes can go higher and lower than that, but I would like the new ones to be more within that range.

Ideally I'd like a design wider & taller than deep from front to back so that they could be easily stacked ontop of my 18's. Top of each double 18 cab is 27x22 inch and they are designed to be standing so ideally a single 15 would be 27x22 than however tall required to give it enough volume, or a double 15 would be 54x22 than however tall required to give it enough volume.

Something like a martin 215 or a hd15/hd215 are options too, but I'd rather have a cab I can see the driver of personally so I can tell whats going on with it and how hard I'm pushing it.

18mbh65 is another option I've looked at but the problem with it is that it use's a 18 and is pretty big, it wouldn't be good for putting ontop of subs, however I like the design of it.

Ideally I would take whatever design and adapt it to the kappa drivers I can get locally for a reasonable price, so I'm not close minded to coming up with something new or adapting a design to the kappas.

The goal would be front face kick/punch from ontop of the subs.. so maybe even a double 12 design could be a option.
 

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On reggae soundsystems they often use a G-Sub as kickbin, it's a big ported double driver box (18 or 15") box, and works very well for this. in those setups it's used for the 85-450Hz band (or something similar) with an active crossover (in the dub preamp that they use for this kind of soundsystems). The subs they use are mostly 18" or 21" scoops (backloaded horns) in a stack of 4.

Speakerplans.com
 
GreenSpade you have the right idea. No one in their right mind would use a dual 18 inch sub from 85 Hz - 450 Hz. :confused:

A Straight horn is what many Dance Hall Reggae Sound Systems use for kicks. Typically, a straight horn offering 12 inch for mids with a 15 inch straight horn for kicks or what we call low mids. That is how Dance Hall Reggae Sound Systems in Jamaica and the Americas are set up.
 
GreenSpade you have the right idea. No one in their right mind would use a dual 18 inch sub from 85 Hz - 450 Hz. :confused:

A Straight horn is what many Dance Hall Reggae Sound Systems use for kicks. Typically, a straight horn offering 12 inch for mids with a 15 inch straight horn for kicks or what we call low mids. That is how Dance Hall Reggae Sound Systems in Jamaica and the Americas are set up.



Uk and EU reggae and dubsounds are something different than jamaican style dancehall sounds. Those dancehall sounds also don ‘t use scoops fo subs. they use reflex boxes tuned way higher.And i also would hicut the kickhorn lower. But that is what a lot do...
 
Uk and EU reggae and dubsounds are something different than jamaican style dancehall sounds. Those dancehall sounds also don ‘t use scoops fo subs. they use reflex boxes tuned way higher.And i also would hicut the kickhorn lower. But that is what a lot do...

Those UK Sounds that are Roots Sound also do not play a lot of vocals as well compared to Dance Hall Sound Systems. Don't confuse UK Roots Sounds with Dance Hall UK Sound Systems such as Luv Injection. If your source is only Speakerplans then your information is based solely on Roots Sound Systems. They know very little about Dance Hall Sound Systems which is why, you do not see any Dance Hall Sound Systems participating on Speakerplans.

Roots Sound Systems is a small niche group compared to Dance Hall Sound Systems. They pretty much are content with four Scoops whereas, four Scoops would not be considered one column in the eyes of a Dance Hall Sound System in which we use three columns.
 
Those UK Sounds that are Roots Sound also do not play a lot of vocals as well compared to Dance Hall Sound Systems. Don't confuse UK Roots Sounds with Dance Hall UK Sound Systems such as Luv Injection. If your source is only Speakerplans then your information is based solely on Roots Sound Systems. They know very little about Dance Hall Sound Systems which is why, you do not see any Dance Hall Sound Systems participating on Speakerplans.

Roots Sound Systems is a small niche group compared to Dance Hall Sound Systems. They pretty much are content with four Scoops whereas, four Scoops would not be considered one column in the eyes of a Dance Hall Sound System in which we use three columns.

My source is certainly not only speakerplans. I'm a soundsystem veteran since 1996, played dancehall for about 15 years (i quiet the dancehall arround 2011) on different local sounds and i know the european scene inside out. Now i do a rootsreggae radioshow and still play roots and dub from time to time as guest selector. I also worked as sound engineer in the commercial circuit for years before my back killed that carreer.

And roots is not a small niche today, it's actually much bigger than dancehall soundsystems in Europe and the UK. A single stack (wich is 4 scoops + the asociated kicks, mids and tops) is considered a small sound, big sounds bring at least 2 stacks, and often 4 of more. When the real big names in continental roots & dub (like Blackboard Jungle or OBF or King Shiloh) come out full power then it's more like 4 or 5 stacks that are set, not 1. And with the big names in the UK it's often the same.

Dancehallsounds, but luv injection and some other older (like Saxon) don't have an own sound anymore, as they are mostly playing in clubs today. Robbo Ranx or David Rodigan, the 2 biggest names in dancehall in the UK next to Luv Injection and Saxon don't have a hardware sound. And the big names in continental Europe neighter. I worked for both David Rodigan and Robo Ranx in the past as sound engineer while they were performing in Europe, and they do know the basics about audio, but that's it. The real hardware part of soundsystem culture is a bit lost in the dancehall scene outside Jamaica.

But let's get back on topic. A straight kick horn will be to big or to high tuned for what the OP want. So i would use or vented or sealed boxes for those drivers. Sealed will be more punchy, vented will go lower. The choice is yours.

As illustration i added a picture of a big part of the stack of Blackboard Jungle, who are from Rouen (FR) but play all over Europe...

Edit: pic upload failed but it's fixed
 

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waxx said:
My source is certainly not only speakerplans. I'm a soundsystem veteran since 1996, played dancehall for about 15 years (i quiet the dancehall arround 2011) on different local sounds and i know the european scene inside out. Now i do a rootsreggae radioshow and still play roots and dub from time to time as guest selector. I also worked as sound engineer in the commercial circuit for years before my back killed that carreer.

I have been in this business for 40 years. That is not taking in account Reggae Music being a part of my heritage.

waxx said:
And roots is not a small niche today, it's actually much bigger than dancehall soundsystems in Europe and the UK. A single stack (wich is 4 scoops + the asociated kicks, mids and tops) is considered a small sound, big sounds bring at least 2 stacks, and often 4 of more. When the real big names in continental roots & dub (like Blackboard Jungle or OBF or King Shiloh) come out full power then it's more like 4 or 5 stacks that are set, not 1. And with the big names in the UK it's often the same.

Dance Hall Reggae is popular all over the Globe. Roots highest popularity is UK. Roots came from Jamaica in the 1970's progressed with the times and moved on to a different style of music. The Younger Generation allowed the music to prosper to what they felt was more to their liking within that time period. The younger generation is always the dominating factor when it comes to popular music. The older generation reminisce on the good old days and play music pertaining to those good old days. That is why Roots Music is a niche market. It is no different than those who focus on a Richard Long & Associates Sound System to play Disco Music. It is also a niche market.




waxx said:
Dancehallsounds, but luv injection and some other older (like Saxon) don't have an own sound anymore, as they are mostly playing in clubs today. Robbo Ranx or David Rodigan, the 2 biggest names in dancehall in the UK next to Luv Injection and Saxon don't have a hardware sound. And the big names in continental Europe neighter. I worked for both David Rodigan and Robo Ranx in the past as sound engineer while they were performing in Europe, and they do know the basics about audio, but that's it. The real hardware part of soundsystem culture is a bit lost in the dancehall scene outside Jamaica.

All the DJs and Sound Systems you mentioned have one time or another travelled around the Globe to promote Dance Hall Music. Roots Sound Systems do not travel around the Globe to promote Roots Music for it is not as popular as Dancehall Music around the Globe. You are focusing solely on the United Kingdom and parts of Europe whereas, I am looking at the popularity from a Global Standpoint.


waxx said:
But let's get back on topic. A straight kick horn will be to big or to high tuned for what the OP want. So i would use or vented or sealed boxes for those drivers. Sealed will be more punchy, vented will go lower. The choice is yours.

As illustration i added a picture of a big part of the stack of Blackboard Jungle, who are from Rouen (FR) but play all over Europe...

Edit: pic upload failed but it's fixed

Have you ever heard the Altec 816 or the JBL 4560. Both cabinets are Straight horns with a tuned port that will get the job done. Thousands of these boxes have been copied and used within a 50 year period in the home builders and commercial market. The cabinet Greenspade is considering reaps Altec 816.
 
Here is a dual twelve straight horn


Speakerplans.com

You can always upscale the cabinet from 12 to 15.

This is more or less what I was thinking about shape wise ... but... Is that a horn in the middle of it? I guess I could try to slim down that middle horn section since its not used as a back chamber, so I mean this could possibly work but more ideally I'd want a design I didn't need to remove large chunks of the cab in order to make work with dead unused space in the middle... I feel like theres a design that prob could make use of it through a center ported back chamber ether combined both coming out together or cut in half by putting a seperation board down the middle of it.

I already got what I would call "overkill" for my highs and mids so the horn is both unwanted and not required.

I purely need this as a kick bin, I don't need or want a design with a horn in it since I'm looking for kicks in peoples faces, not horns, lets be clear here, I don't need a full range cab but rather one that strictly is for kicks, not low mid vocals from 1k-3.5k or 3.5k to 20k for horn above it, I have all this sorted out already.

This is the right direction tho if you guys know of anything else like this but more kick focused.
 
Have you ever heard the Altec 816 or the JBL 4560. Both cabinets are Straight horns with a tuned port that will get the job done. Thousands of these boxes have been copied and used within a 50 year period in the home builders and commercial market. The cabinet Greenspade is considering reaps Altec 816.

So funny story, I guess those unnamed cabs are actually four Altec 816's.

Cuz those are the cabs I got lol.

However I no longer want them cuz of their size not exactly being what I wanted.... plus they are made out of mdf or something lame that is not holding up very well to the test of time... I mean for example theres no screws or anything holding this together, just super thin finishing nails so I legitimately had to reglue them back together. Really can't advise them from a touring stand point but despite having to glue them back together, they do sound pretty dang decent despite looking like absolute pieces of ****. Plus the handles on them really suck, its like straight metal rod with nothing on it so digs into your hands.

They have had a looooong life, even revived past what should've been the end of their life in my opinion, before I put the kappa 15's in them they had some weird 200-250w 15s with square magnets on the back, ancient as hell... its their time to retire (despite still sounding great) however I can't leave that gaping hole in my sound by removing them without having something to replace them.

Found this as well, seems to be more or less the same design but with a port on top and bottom instead of just bottom... And I'm seeing pictures of people putting these on their sides? This would be more ideal for me cuz it would be easier to make them fit.. however I wonder if its as effective at throwing this way since its effectively throwing into the sky and the ground if you put it sideways... I'd like to find a design that was more wide than deep, ported, two drivers ideally, but I could stack singles if need be.
 

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So I looked through the speaker plans a bit more and came cross this voice of theatre cab...

It looks pretty dang close to the altec 816's I already have, so it should be a close sound.

They are designed to use the kappa drivers I already have, they are 60mm deep by 72mm wide so they would fit perfectly ontop of my 18s.

So far this seems like the best design however I'd still really like to find a dual-12 or dual-15 design that fits across two subs instead of having to make one for one.
 

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Here is a small midbass ROAR-like design based on two RCF L10-750YK drivers per channel.

I have "cheated" a little when simulated the max spl based on my experience with several ROAR builds.

We have never managed to push any driver in any ROAR-design to exceed xmax yet - and we have tried! So I calculated this max spl with 5 mm xmax despite the drivers 3,0 xmax rating.

Hornresp does not seem to calculate cone excursion correct in this type of enclosure at high power levels. I could not get my B&C 12PS100 to exceed 8 mm cone excursion with a single channel from a Powersoft K10 amp (2000 watts) despite my best try, bass heavy EDM and no subsonic/HP filter.
 

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Here is a small midbass ROAR-like design based on two RCF L10-750YK drivers per channel.

I have "cheated" a little when simulated the max spl based on my experience with several ROAR builds.

We have never managed to push any driver in any ROAR-design to exceed xmax yet - and we have tried! So I calculated this max spl with 5 mm xmax despite the drivers 3,0 xmax rating.

Hornresp does not seem to calculate cone excursion correct in this type of enclosure at high power levels. I could not get my B&C 12PS100 to exceed 8 mm cone excursion with a single channel from a Powersoft K10 amp (2000 watts) despite my best try, bass heavy EDM and no subsonic/HP filter.

Okay I'm interested, do you have any pictures or designs?

Really the key feature for me is to be able to fit it intop of a 22inch deep sub, upwards of 28 to 56inch wide, times whatever high.... like ideally some tall bins that are no as deep but are wide would be perfect, thats why I was looking for a dual cab since I figured it would be easier to make it wider and taller this way..

But I'ma be honest these altec 816's really do sound awesome, they look like trash but they do legitimately sound good so I feel like the theater of sound cabs might be what I'm looking for in singles since the dimentions of the cab and the hz range that I'm looking for is there.
 
Martinsson's Blog - ROAR12

Here is a link to the original ROAR12 with a single B&C12PS100. This is just an example to show the overall layout.

The picture below is my first BIC+A4 "CAD" sketch of the design seen from above.

I am using the metric system but the 210 MBROAR would be 24 inch wide, 22 inch deep and 23 inch tall - if roughly translated to inch (610 mm wide, 550 mm deep, 590 mm height if built of 15 mm plywood).
 

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Martinsson's Blog - ROAR12

Here is a link to the original ROAR12 with a single B&C12PS100. This is just an example to show the overall layout.

The picture below is my first BIC+A4 "CAD" sketch of the design seen from above.

I am using the metric system but the 210 MBROAR would be 24 inch wide, 22 inch deep and 23 inch tall - if roughly translated to inch (610 mm wide, 550 mm deep, 590 mm height if built of 15 mm plywood).

I donno man, I'm not sold on this, maybe show me some pictures of one? I'm not seeing the benefits of this design over the theater of sound design. Also not a huge fan of looking into a cab to see the back of the driver tbh.

And thats a HUGE dip at 300ish hz tbh I'm looking at the altec a7's, the theator of sound cabs and they are pretty flat till 800hz with no big dips like that... currently I'm running the altec 816's from 80-1k but I've also ran them 50-200 as more of a sub cab, they have options..... those roar12 cabs seem to only be good from 80-200.
 
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I donno man, I'm not sold on this

That is as expected. Since this is a rather radical departure from normal (dogmatic) loudspeaker design practice and not many people understand the underlying principles behind this design - I can´t blame you in any way.

I just wanted to throw this idea out there in the off chance that you wanted to test the leading edge forefront of loudspeaker development regardless of what some Forum Knights of the Status Quo (I don´t mean you) say is a reasonable and sound design.

You can never go wrong with an old and proven Altec design. They sound great!

Regards,
Johannes
 
This is more or less what I was thinking about shape wise ... but... Is that a horn in the middle of it? I guess I could try to slim down that middle horn section since its not used as a back chamber, so I mean this could possibly work but more ideally I'd want a design I didn't need to remove large chunks of the cab in order to make work with dead unused space in the middle... I feel like theres a design that prob could make use of it through a center ported back chamber ether combined both coming out together or cut in half by putting a seperation board down the middle of it.

What you could do is eliminate the cavity of the compression horn which, will make the box smaller in height. Or, eliminate the cavity of the compression horn and make the mouths of the kick bin longer. The second option will allow the kick to play even louder. The bigger the mouth, the louder the sound. Thats how all horns work.

GreenSpade said:
I already got what I would call "overkill" for my highs and mids so the horn is both unwanted and not required.

I purely need this as a kick bin, I don't need or want a design with a horn in it since I'm looking for kicks in peoples faces, not horns, lets be clear here, I don't need a full range cab but rather one that strictly is for kicks, not low mid vocals from 1k-3.5k or 3.5k to 20k for horn above it, I have all this sorted out already.

This is the right direction tho if you guys know of anything else like this but more kick focused.

Low Mids/Mid Bass/Kicks are the same thing. It just depends on which part of the world you reside in on how it is worded.

You definitely want a horn if you are looking for a strong attack. If you are certain you are never going to play vocals, then you can look more towards a folded horn for kicks. But! The average vocal range reaches down to 100 Hz. In a folded horn, the vocals will sound like someone is mumbling whereas, in a straight horn the lower vocal range will have more definition. Even though you are not interested in the vocal range, the kick hovers in mid to lower vocal range.

Personally, I have always used straight horns above 90 Hz and let my subs pick up from where the straight horns left off.


GreenSpade said:
So funny story, I guess those unnamed cabs are actually four Altec 816's.

Cuz those are the cabs I got lol.

However I no longer want them cuz of their size not exactly being what I wanted.... plus they are made out of mdf or something lame that is not holding up very well to the test of time... I mean for example theres no screws or anything holding this together, just super thin finishing nails so I legitimately had to reglue them back together. Really can't advise them from a touring stand point but despite having to glue them back together, they do sound pretty dang decent despite looking like absolute pieces of ****. Plus the handles on them really suck, its like straight metal rod with nothing on it so digs into your hands.


They have had a looooong life, even revived past what should've been the end of their life in my opinion, before I put the kappa 15's in them they had some weird 200-250w 15s with square magnets on the back, ancient as hell... its their time to retire (despite still sounding great) however I can't leave that gaping hole in my sound by removing them without having something to replace them.

LOL!!

That's MDF. MDF is garbage when you have to move them about. I have a few old Altec 816 Style MDF boxes myself. I was rattling them apart once I started feeding 600 watts in them. Ended up dumpling truck bed liner on them, pulling out my drill and, screwing up the boxes with 2 inch drywalls. Oh, and stuffing the back of the flares with blankets for they would ring like bell. It helped until I started putting 1300 watts..... they are now retired. I cannot complain though. I bought 8 boxes for $80.00 back in 1987 so I got my moneys worth out of them.



GreenSpade said:
Found this as well, seems to be more or less the same design but with a port on top and bottom instead of just bottom... And I'm seeing pictures of people putting these on their sides? This would be more ideal for me cuz it would be easier to make them fit.. however I wonder if its as effective at throwing this way since its effectively throwing into the sky and the ground if you put it sideways... I'd like to find a design that was more wide than deep, ported, two drivers ideally, but I could stack singles if need be.


A horizontal splay versus a vertical splay narrows the beam-width so you have better control on where the sound is going. Straight horns definitely kicks harder in your face once you configure the flare vertically than horizontally from my experience. A lot of these new designs are just old forgotten designs resurrected from dead crafted to be more usable in this day in age.