Papa,
Perhaps the reason why it hasn't been such an issue for me before is simply because I have also been listening primarily to single drivers and coaxials that XO'd at around 3500Hz. As I understand it we are less sensitive to phase differences at higher frequencies? Also, would a 2nd order XO be less of a problem since both drivers are "in phase" as opposed to first order XO's being 90degrees out?
Thanks for the pics. I'll check out the links you posted. I'm curious about your Corals.
Cheers,
Erik
Perhaps the reason why it hasn't been such an issue for me before is simply because I have also been listening primarily to single drivers and coaxials that XO'd at around 3500Hz. As I understand it we are less sensitive to phase differences at higher frequencies? Also, would a 2nd order XO be less of a problem since both drivers are "in phase" as opposed to first order XO's being 90degrees out?
Thanks for the pics. I'll check out the links you posted. I'm curious about your Corals.
Cheers,
Erik
Guys,
That's a very fine array of drivers you both have there. I feel a little inadequate.
Oh and Erik, your Mazzer grinder also leaves my Iberital for dead too. Looks like you also roast your own coffee? Feeling more inadequate all the time. Although, my Faema machine makes a good enough cup for me.
Erik and Papa, I'm no expert on phase relationships in music, but I believe, that similar to wiring speakers out of phase, and how various equipment, amps, cables and crossovers can introduce phase errors into our systems, 'poorly' recorded audio already contains phase errors resulting from the poor arrangment of microphones, cables, the use of signal processing - effects loops, external/internal signal processors/delays, and the practice of the multi-layering of audio tracks. Add to this that the OB is 'using/revealing' the normally hidden 'other half' of our music, these errors are being compounded by the OB system, and maybe hidden to some extent by box systems. We can prevent our systems introducing phase errors to a signal, but we can't get them to remove phase errors that already exist in the recording. We often say that a particular recording is a 'bad recording', but we don't often ask or discuss why that is.
I'm going to ask my audio engineer friend more about this, as it's only an assumption on my part and I could be barking up the wrong tree.
Fired up the 25B's again today. Moved them a little in the room, and it seems to have cleaned up some of the problems I experienced last night - killing my own theory already. I may have had them angled in a little too much? -or it could be just psychological.
Due to demands from SWMBO we have a cabinet (to hide all those 'ugly' audio things) between the two areas I place my speakers. I'm sure this has an effect on the sound with the OB's to some extent. Will continue to experiment, but I really like what I hear. Think a well intergrated, big driver (10-12" due to room size) crossed over for bass support on each baffle could be the answer to a very good sounding system with the 25B's - to my ears anyway. Any ideas, or recommendations here gratefully accepted?
Think I might also try a tweeter firing backwards per Linkwitz Orions and Bastanis. Have either of you ever tried this option out?
Erik, I have ABC Dipole already, but thanks for the suggestion. Shame we haven't more info re Qt etc for the pioneer drivers, although 40years on I'm sure their specs have changed. I have downloaded a free program, 'Speaker Workshop', that although no longer updated is very worthwhile having/learning if measuring and testing speakers interests you. Speaker Workshop
cheers,
Simon
That's a very fine array of drivers you both have there. I feel a little inadequate.
Oh and Erik, your Mazzer grinder also leaves my Iberital for dead too. Looks like you also roast your own coffee? Feeling more inadequate all the time. Although, my Faema machine makes a good enough cup for me.
Erik and Papa, I'm no expert on phase relationships in music, but I believe, that similar to wiring speakers out of phase, and how various equipment, amps, cables and crossovers can introduce phase errors into our systems, 'poorly' recorded audio already contains phase errors resulting from the poor arrangment of microphones, cables, the use of signal processing - effects loops, external/internal signal processors/delays, and the practice of the multi-layering of audio tracks. Add to this that the OB is 'using/revealing' the normally hidden 'other half' of our music, these errors are being compounded by the OB system, and maybe hidden to some extent by box systems. We can prevent our systems introducing phase errors to a signal, but we can't get them to remove phase errors that already exist in the recording. We often say that a particular recording is a 'bad recording', but we don't often ask or discuss why that is.
I'm going to ask my audio engineer friend more about this, as it's only an assumption on my part and I could be barking up the wrong tree.
Fired up the 25B's again today. Moved them a little in the room, and it seems to have cleaned up some of the problems I experienced last night - killing my own theory already. I may have had them angled in a little too much? -or it could be just psychological.
Due to demands from SWMBO we have a cabinet (to hide all those 'ugly' audio things) between the two areas I place my speakers. I'm sure this has an effect on the sound with the OB's to some extent. Will continue to experiment, but I really like what I hear. Think a well intergrated, big driver (10-12" due to room size) crossed over for bass support on each baffle could be the answer to a very good sounding system with the 25B's - to my ears anyway. Any ideas, or recommendations here gratefully accepted?
Think I might also try a tweeter firing backwards per Linkwitz Orions and Bastanis. Have either of you ever tried this option out?
Erik, I have ABC Dipole already, but thanks for the suggestion. Shame we haven't more info re Qt etc for the pioneer drivers, although 40years on I'm sure their specs have changed. I have downloaded a free program, 'Speaker Workshop', that although no longer updated is very worthwhile having/learning if measuring and testing speakers interests you. Speaker Workshop
cheers,
Simon
Hey Simon,
I finally twigged to what SWMBO stood for, Rumpole came to my defense. My little side coffee business profits are all funneled directly into Audio. Once I reached critical mass(wife's response to seeing me viewing eBay vintage drivers: "don't TELL me you are buying MORE speakers!" My response: "Oh no, these are for Cory") I started buying and "storing" drivers with friends. I'm sick.
Yeah, coffee is a real hobby, soon to become my livelihood(I hope). The Mazzer was a throwaway from Starbucks when they departed from real coffee prep. Nothing like BIG burrs. I had a Synesso 2 group on my coffee counter for a while, too, that had been built for David Schomer. My wife is very tolerant. The new coffee business will be fresh-roasted coffee delivered direct to your home via bicycle(provided you live in the appropriate zip code). We are about a month from launch. Wish me luck.
I think that integrating some woofers would work very well for you if you ran the PAX full range and just brought in the woofers below Fequal(bigger baffle) with a 12dB XO to have both drivers in phase. That could help to flatten the impedance of the load. The only problem is the PAX high efficiency that is well nigh impossible to match a woofer to. The only thing I've seen recently were a pair of Pioneer PW30F's that went for $400. It gets tricky. Perhaps the best thing is to get the PAX running to 80HZ and then bring in a sealed sub.
I haven't tried the rear firing tweeter, but yes, by all accounts it works well. I have a 4" open backed cone tweeter, a SABA, that I've wanted to try that with. A true dipole tweeter. I tried the Lampizator SABA scheme, minus the Altec woofers, and thought that the sound was good, but.....
As far as phase... I know that when I am talking with my wife and turn my head or walk around the room the phase angle of her voice changes. And yet I don't seem to be too sensitive to that. I know that with two speakers being out of phase in the "coherent zone" of frequencies I can begin to notice it. Can you articulate what it is that you are hearing? Perhaps I just don't know all the appropriate Eskimo words for "snow" and am therefore simply limited in my observations so far.
Asta,
Erik
I finally twigged to what SWMBO stood for, Rumpole came to my defense. My little side coffee business profits are all funneled directly into Audio. Once I reached critical mass(wife's response to seeing me viewing eBay vintage drivers: "don't TELL me you are buying MORE speakers!" My response: "Oh no, these are for Cory") I started buying and "storing" drivers with friends. I'm sick.
Yeah, coffee is a real hobby, soon to become my livelihood(I hope). The Mazzer was a throwaway from Starbucks when they departed from real coffee prep. Nothing like BIG burrs. I had a Synesso 2 group on my coffee counter for a while, too, that had been built for David Schomer. My wife is very tolerant. The new coffee business will be fresh-roasted coffee delivered direct to your home via bicycle(provided you live in the appropriate zip code). We are about a month from launch. Wish me luck.
I think that integrating some woofers would work very well for you if you ran the PAX full range and just brought in the woofers below Fequal(bigger baffle) with a 12dB XO to have both drivers in phase. That could help to flatten the impedance of the load. The only problem is the PAX high efficiency that is well nigh impossible to match a woofer to. The only thing I've seen recently were a pair of Pioneer PW30F's that went for $400. It gets tricky. Perhaps the best thing is to get the PAX running to 80HZ and then bring in a sealed sub.
I haven't tried the rear firing tweeter, but yes, by all accounts it works well. I have a 4" open backed cone tweeter, a SABA, that I've wanted to try that with. A true dipole tweeter. I tried the Lampizator SABA scheme, minus the Altec woofers, and thought that the sound was good, but.....
As far as phase... I know that when I am talking with my wife and turn my head or walk around the room the phase angle of her voice changes. And yet I don't seem to be too sensitive to that. I know that with two speakers being out of phase in the "coherent zone" of frequencies I can begin to notice it. Can you articulate what it is that you are hearing? Perhaps I just don't know all the appropriate Eskimo words for "snow" and am therefore simply limited in my observations so far.
Asta,
Erik
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By many accounts these woofers are just about the best possible for OB to use with HiEfficiency FR drivers. Physical and electrical values are near ideal. I've thought about trying them but there are too many projects now. I have 4 Goldwood 18"s that a guy gave me that I've been meaning to use as well.... I have the plywood and the drivers, just not the time.
Oops, sorry Simon, I just realized that wasn't at all helpful. You need something smaller.
Erik
Oops, sorry Simon, I just realized that wasn't at all helpful. You need something smaller.
Erik
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Hi Erik,
If you're feeling very energetic one day, I'll take a kilo of your coffee. Just don't forget to pack your swimmers! Seriously though, I wish you all the best in the coffee business, and just think - the more you sell the fitter you'll get.
As for the phase issue, I may or may not be on the right track, but what I hear is a varying degree of non-existent sound stage within a particular recording. If you take at one end of the scale a great recording (everything clearly audible/definable) and at the other, say, a pair of speakers wired out of phase with each other (no soundstage, just a wall of 'indefinable' music) Then phase errors in the recording lead to certain parts/instruments/vocals being poorly defined within the recording/soundstage as a whole. As an example of this I was listening to the Eagles 'Hotel California' track on a best of album the other night, the drums where there in well defined stereo across and within the soundstage, but the vocals and other instruments (to varying degrees) were poorly defined as though they were out of phase, similar to the effect when speakers are wired out of phase. This is where my assumption about phase problems comes from. I hope that makes some sense.
I tried the rear facing tweeter last night (a Visaton DHT9 horn tweeter I had lying around - it actually fits the funny shape hole in my black OB's) and it really seems to add body and weight to the top-end. To put it in a 'wanky' tone, it makes strings sound round/solid, as if you could hear the whole string in space, not just the note eminating from them. Some windchimes on an Anreas Vollenweider (wifes old favourite) track sounded like windchimes for the first time, not just 'tinkles' coming from the speakers - they had a real body to them. Give it a try when you have any time free, I'd be interested what you think.
regards,
Simon
If you're feeling very energetic one day, I'll take a kilo of your coffee. Just don't forget to pack your swimmers! Seriously though, I wish you all the best in the coffee business, and just think - the more you sell the fitter you'll get.
As for the phase issue, I may or may not be on the right track, but what I hear is a varying degree of non-existent sound stage within a particular recording. If you take at one end of the scale a great recording (everything clearly audible/definable) and at the other, say, a pair of speakers wired out of phase with each other (no soundstage, just a wall of 'indefinable' music) Then phase errors in the recording lead to certain parts/instruments/vocals being poorly defined within the recording/soundstage as a whole. As an example of this I was listening to the Eagles 'Hotel California' track on a best of album the other night, the drums where there in well defined stereo across and within the soundstage, but the vocals and other instruments (to varying degrees) were poorly defined as though they were out of phase, similar to the effect when speakers are wired out of phase. This is where my assumption about phase problems comes from. I hope that makes some sense.
I tried the rear facing tweeter last night (a Visaton DHT9 horn tweeter I had lying around - it actually fits the funny shape hole in my black OB's) and it really seems to add body and weight to the top-end. To put it in a 'wanky' tone, it makes strings sound round/solid, as if you could hear the whole string in space, not just the note eminating from them. Some windchimes on an Anreas Vollenweider (wifes old favourite) track sounded like windchimes for the first time, not just 'tinkles' coming from the speakers - they had a real body to them. Give it a try when you have any time free, I'd be interested what you think.
regards,
Simon
Erik,
Thanks for the woofer suggestions. It really seems that Eminence drivers are the 'pre-eminent' driver for all this OB stuff, with both Bastanis and Hawthorne using them. Sad that the local distribution of the Eminence brand is quite small, at the moment anyway, and the shipping from the US doubles their price.
I'm enjoying the 25B's so much that if 15" is the solution then 15" it may have to be. I can say that privately here with great conviction, around the home it might be a little different. There is an Australian manufacturer (so they say), Etone, who seem to produce similar PRO drivers with hi-efficiency. That remains an option, with ebay being another for the Eminence drivers though.
Simon
Thanks for the woofer suggestions. It really seems that Eminence drivers are the 'pre-eminent' driver for all this OB stuff, with both Bastanis and Hawthorne using them. Sad that the local distribution of the Eminence brand is quite small, at the moment anyway, and the shipping from the US doubles their price.
I'm enjoying the 25B's so much that if 15" is the solution then 15" it may have to be. I can say that privately here with great conviction, around the home it might be a little different. There is an Australian manufacturer (so they say), Etone, who seem to produce similar PRO drivers with hi-efficiency. That remains an option, with ebay being another for the Eminence drivers though.
Simon
Simon,
Have you checked out Martin King's Quarter-Wave site and his projects using the Eminence woofers?
Glad to hear you are enjoying the 25B's so much. How could it be otherwise?
I'll try the back tweeter, I just realized that I do have a couple of Pioneer(!) horn tweeters laying around that would be easy to integrate. With your report of the sound it makes it a necessity.
Your comments re phase make sense. I've never been aware/thought of the issue in those terms. Live and learn...
Erik
Have you checked out Martin King's Quarter-Wave site and his projects using the Eminence woofers?
Glad to hear you are enjoying the 25B's so much. How could it be otherwise?
I'll try the back tweeter, I just realized that I do have a couple of Pioneer(!) horn tweeters laying around that would be easy to integrate. With your report of the sound it makes it a necessity.
Your comments re phase make sense. I've never been aware/thought of the issue in those terms. Live and learn...
Erik
Certainly are the big brother 😉 Yes, they would go low enough if I have them in a vented cab, for sure. However, using an existing sealed cab brings up the fs. At some point I may change cabs to see what they can do. $120 for the pair.
Erik,
I'm going to wire switches into the rear facing horns so that I can get the kids to lie on the floor (wish me luck) and switch them in and out as I listen. That should confirm any improvement that I think I'm hearing.
Will visit MK's site, haven't been there for awhile. Apparently, there is again an Eminence distributor in Australia carrying a reasonable range. Haven't checked prices yet. Did ring a music store yesterday enquiring about 15" Eminence drivers, and the 'crusty old' guitarist who answered the phone asked what I wanted them for as he only stocked other brands. When I told him he said that he now only ever uses open back boxes for his drivers/amps as they sound so much better than infinite or bass reflex. He thinks the only reason they introduced IB and BR into the world of live music was to get some extra volume out of the drivers. Seems we're all seeing the light.
Slightly off topic, but not really. Check out this link, I think you'll get a kick out of it, and maybe some ideas for the future, I have. Probably, the perfect coffee shop in our eyes - pure beauty. I have seen reference to another similar place, more of a small restaurant, but can't seem to find that link at the moment. Check out the size of that driver under the horn in the back right corner, now that makes me feel inadequate. 😀
New speaker system A-08-205D watching/Yamamoto sound craft
Simon
I'm going to wire switches into the rear facing horns so that I can get the kids to lie on the floor (wish me luck) and switch them in and out as I listen. That should confirm any improvement that I think I'm hearing.
Will visit MK's site, haven't been there for awhile. Apparently, there is again an Eminence distributor in Australia carrying a reasonable range. Haven't checked prices yet. Did ring a music store yesterday enquiring about 15" Eminence drivers, and the 'crusty old' guitarist who answered the phone asked what I wanted them for as he only stocked other brands. When I told him he said that he now only ever uses open back boxes for his drivers/amps as they sound so much better than infinite or bass reflex. He thinks the only reason they introduced IB and BR into the world of live music was to get some extra volume out of the drivers. Seems we're all seeing the light.
Slightly off topic, but not really. Check out this link, I think you'll get a kick out of it, and maybe some ideas for the future, I have. Probably, the perfect coffee shop in our eyes - pure beauty. I have seen reference to another similar place, more of a small restaurant, but can't seem to find that link at the moment. Check out the size of that driver under the horn in the back right corner, now that makes me feel inadequate. 😀
New speaker system A-08-205D watching/Yamamoto sound craft
Simon
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Well, if I were able to switch my kids in and out I KNOW I could confirm an improvement in what I'm hearing. Without even making them lie on the floor.
Yep, musicians know where it's at. They are all about the sound. That is why the Hemptones are so appealing. Musicians love them. The same company recones JBL D130's with hemp cones and I would love to hear a pair of those.
Erik
Wow, and I thought that my listening room was less than ideal. What a shame. All that glorious equipment jammed cheek to jowl. No room to breath.
Erik
I see Hemptone also produce drivers for the 'Home Audio' market. Erik, I know you're an Alnico Man, but have you heard anything about these?
Hemp Tone Speakers.net - Store
Simon
Good price - not as good as mine ;-) but good nontheless (I got the A20 and the 25B at $75NZ @ pair). A BLH certainly does lift the botom end, the A20 are in folded TQWP and do very well. I should have thought a bit harder when I made the (rough) cabinets so I could swap the 25B into that cabinet too for a comparison - 20-20 hindsight is not much use tho'.
Simon,
I've phoned hemptone (ABrounSoun) a few times. They really are tuned in to dealing with musicians. Even with their home audio stuff they simply don't want to be bothered with the audiophiliac measurebators phoning them and asking about silly T/S specs. I got a few specs on the ToneTubbys and even a few for their home FR drivers but they just aren't "into" our scene.
There was a story of a high-rotation audio junkie that was super into OB using even their 8" ceramic tonetubby and having some of his performing arts friends over to listen and they preferred the vocals of that driver to anything else they heard. I think that there is something to using hemp as a cone material. Too bad they don't offer their 5" with an alnico motor. I would buy that in a heartbeat to use in the dipole CD waveguide.
Erik
I've phoned hemptone (ABrounSoun) a few times. They really are tuned in to dealing with musicians. Even with their home audio stuff they simply don't want to be bothered with the audiophiliac measurebators phoning them and asking about silly T/S specs. I got a few specs on the ToneTubbys and even a few for their home FR drivers but they just aren't "into" our scene.
There was a story of a high-rotation audio junkie that was super into OB using even their 8" ceramic tonetubby and having some of his performing arts friends over to listen and they preferred the vocals of that driver to anything else they heard. I think that there is something to using hemp as a cone material. Too bad they don't offer their 5" with an alnico motor. I would buy that in a heartbeat to use in the dipole CD waveguide.
Erik
I have a set of pax-20e's, with electrostatic tweeters. Now I got em with burnt woofers, so I cheapened out and put parts express 8" woofer and the tweeters ... however I would love to find a working woofer pair. The PE stuff is fine ... but old original even better.
Cool.
Srinath.
Cool.
Srinath.
I bought a pair of PAX-20e's, and built custom bass reflex enclosures. These are amazing drivers, with a midrange i can listen to for hours. The electrostatic top end tops out at 15khz, but is delicate and fast, with very good dispertion. I have found there is a massive peak at 1k requiring a notch filter of 6db. With this compensation, it goes from AM radio to hi fi glorious. I power them with an ideal innovations elite-40 SET Triode, 10wpc. Im very aware of modern and vintage speakers, and these are the best of both worlds. I will post some pictures.
This is the original ad that I purchased:
PIONEER PAX-20E .Great for DIY Buffles etc. Excellent condition.$180 - Canuck Audio Mart
It took a while to tune the bass, but I got it very flat, with good extension, and no boomy box sound.
I have also been using a Miniwatt N3 with NOS GE EL84 tubes at 3.5wpc. *The PAX-20e are over 100dB sensitivity. With this combo the speakers fill a large room to very loud levels.*
PIONEER PAX-20E .Great for DIY Buffles etc. Excellent condition.$180 - Canuck Audio Mart
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It took a while to tune the bass, but I got it very flat, with good extension, and no boomy box sound.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have also been using a Miniwatt N3 with NOS GE EL84 tubes at 3.5wpc. *The PAX-20e are over 100dB sensitivity. With this combo the speakers fill a large room to very loud levels.*
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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How exactly do electrostat tweeters work without a power supply and a high voltage transformer ? Anyway mine are the same things as what you have, nearly the same sized vent in the cabinet, but mine were pentagon shaped cabinets ... anyway mine have cheapo parts-express 8"s in them after the woofers died.
Cool.
Srinath.
Cool.
Srinath.
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