Hi Kanwar,
I will concede that pro amps are getting better. You can not generalise the way you have. I work on both and have profound respect for the good products that are designed and their designers. I will only agree with you that pro amps are superior to home amps in their pro application. I find that to say otherwise is insulting some rather excellent engineers.
-Chris
I will concede that pro amps are getting better. You can not generalise the way you have. I work on both and have profound respect for the good products that are designed and their designers. I will only agree with you that pro amps are superior to home amps in their pro application. I find that to say otherwise is insulting some rather excellent engineers.
-Chris
"Pro" is a term that covers a lot of territory. Touring equipment certainly has a survivability requirement. It's not clear to me that studio equipment has to meet the same requirements and may interset somewhat more with home use requirements. In fact I would think that in a rational world, accuracy is super important in studio equipment.
You would be surprised to see Crown 300DC's still in use in studios. Arrggghhh! They sound awful. But then again, you still find those horrible JBL 12" - slotted port - horn tweeter models in use. Then the "awfultones" and maybe some NS-10(m)'s.
The requirements for recording studios would be a reliable high power home amp. Small Japanese amps need not apply here. The speakers are standards so producers and engineers can travel to different studios and get the same, or similar, sound.
I would call a pro amp, any touring or fixed installation that provides high power public address service. Night club duty qualifies too. Basically the reliability of these is the most important trait in their design. Sound quality comes after that. In home amplification the sound quality comes first and they need to be reasonably reliable. If an amp sounds, hmmm, not good and it is not reliable - it should not exist. Harsh but true.
-Chris
The requirements for recording studios would be a reliable high power home amp. Small Japanese amps need not apply here. The speakers are standards so producers and engineers can travel to different studios and get the same, or similar, sound.
I would call a pro amp, any touring or fixed installation that provides high power public address service. Night club duty qualifies too. Basically the reliability of these is the most important trait in their design. Sound quality comes after that. In home amplification the sound quality comes first and they need to be reasonably reliable. If an amp sounds, hmmm, not good and it is not reliable - it should not exist. Harsh but true.
-Chris
They are not the most acurate mid/highs available and I wouldn't propose those ones for use in studio monitors nowadays.
But I find it a little unfair to call them horrible.
I have a pair of them and I can say that they sound nice and smooth and at ordinary listening levels they have very little THD. I.e. 1 % at 1 Watt input power and this would mean a rather unhealthy SPL.
Regards
Charles
Hi
Mr kanwar i have to say that you are very pasionate about
pro-amp, to just dismiss all HiFi amps as inferior in sound
and reliability is stupid and baseless,pro-amps are way
overkilled when compared to overkill of the HiFi ones
reliability is not just overkill, HiFi amps are made of the
highest quality and precision components and their
reliability has not match, also the presision design and
cutting edge research taking place in the HiFi arena is decades
ahead of any pro-audio amp, you see i am too very pasionate
too.but about HiFi for now,when i decide to design a multi-kw
proamp ill let you know of its origins (HiFi)
cheers
Mr kanwar i have to say that you are very pasionate about
pro-amp, to just dismiss all HiFi amps as inferior in sound
and reliability is stupid and baseless,pro-amps are way
overkilled when compared to overkill of the HiFi ones
reliability is not just overkill, HiFi amps are made of the
highest quality and precision components and their
reliability has not match, also the presision design and
cutting edge research taking place in the HiFi arena is decades
ahead of any pro-audio amp, you see i am too very pasionate
too.but about HiFi for now,when i decide to design a multi-kw
proamp ill let you know of its origins (HiFi)
cheers
mastertech said:
Hello Mr.MasterTech,
HIFI-Arena is'nt decades ahead of Pro-amps but the truth is that pro-amps are some what more overengineered using advanced technologies in present day scenario....don't beleive take a look at various pro-amp websites....www.crestaudio.com www.qscaudio.com
www.ecler.com
these are not just overkill in reliability they are something upon which you trust when cranking high pressure soud levels accross your locality or during World cup , where domestic amps are nothing.....Precision components are the mainstream blood of pro-amps and reliability always rely on precision components and advanced and intelligent engineering through lot of research and development,.. according to me is much more in Hi-FI pro-amps than domestic amps...I think your mind scape is confined to very limited views...kindly update your self according to the present day situaton, dont live in past.......
I dont want to say that all domestic amps are nothing,..but there are some really excellent designs around this world which surely have no match in pro-amps ...but majority of pro-users today demand that type of quality and manufacturers started giving them what they want.....
regards,
Kanwar
i can see from the links youve provided all noise sources class-d and class-h
i dont make such amps, i like class-b-precision and class-a all analogue only!
kind regards
mastertech
i dont make such amps, i like class-b-precision and class-a all analogue only!
kind regards
mastertech
mastertech said:
HAHAHAHAHA😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
These world renowed amps are just noise sources for you, are you human or some over perfect alien creature wandering on earth from outer space in search of human engineering perfectionism.....
If you say this to their company's Bosses they would really reward you with something you deserve much better than anyone else.....whole bunch of pro-amps are a noise source for you......Interesting....
Greg[guru] I think you better take this , since i donot know what to say.....Hahahahaaha😀 😉 😉
Noise sources ,,,masterpiece call these amps ....wow.
masterpiece , as i have said earlier you are simply perfectionist overkiller.................
cheer,
Kanwar
Workhorse said:
Workhorse said:
Hi Kanwar..
The reason i couldn't 'figure out what is going on here', is the sheer amount of psuedo-science masquerading as fact.....
In fact, Damping Factor has been shown (see D. Self), to have no bearing at all on the dynamics of signal transfer from amplifier to transducer in respect of conventional SEPP, or indeed DEPP, Class-A/B/AB amplifiers.....Nada...Zilch....Zero.
Hi Mikeks,
eliminate the word "pseudo" from your mind...you will automatically understand the situation,,,,only real world analysism no pseudo probes.....
I dont have D.self or Randy Slones literature with me ... nor I want it....I "listened" to the high damping amp and compared it with low damping at high SPL through my ears and "SEES" the lot of cone movement in speakers with low damping amp with my Eyes and thats the real world truth...you will not find it in the books.....I am not talking about punny little 100-500WRMS amps, but in fact I talk about 2k++ RMS amps during high SPL testings........
MIKEKS I think you are in some kind of misconception regarding PRO-amps which are being manufactured around the world by various people, or they all are just bashing DF values unintendedly...what you think...or they just found out that DF is just another term for comparision with Competitors......
Dont want to believe me ask "Hunter audio " which manufactures Speakers and hear what they have to say about Hi DF in amps.....
Kanwar
eliminate the word "pseudo" from your mind...you will automatically understand the situation,,,,only real world analysism no pseudo probes.....
I dont have D.self or Randy Slones literature with me ... nor I want it....I "listened" to the high damping amp and compared it with low damping at high SPL through my ears and "SEES" the lot of cone movement in speakers with low damping amp with my Eyes and thats the real world truth...you will not find it in the books.....I am not talking about punny little 100-500WRMS amps, but in fact I talk about 2k++ RMS amps during high SPL testings........
MIKEKS I think you are in some kind of misconception regarding PRO-amps which are being manufactured around the world by various people, or they all are just bashing DF values unintendedly...what you think...or they just found out that DF is just another term for comparision with Competitors......
Dont want to believe me ask "Hunter audio " which manufactures Speakers and hear what they have to say about Hi DF in amps.....
Kanwar
This has degenerated into "my 2KW power amps are better than anything, lets forget about physics if I don't like what you're saying".
Please stop as I'm about to throw up.
-Chris
Please stop as I'm about to throw up.
-Chris
Workhorse said:
That explains a great deal.... 🙄
Workhorse said:
What persuaded you that the allegedly observed phenomenon was due to 'inadequate' DF?
In any case, what exactly constitutes 'low damping' on one hand, and satisfactorily 'high' damping on the other?
If you in fact saw this 'lot of cone movement in speakers with low damping amp', by what means did you establish the link between this dubious phenomenon and the amplifier's DF?
Indeed, how precisely did you determine the DF of the amplifier in question, and what were the specifications of the control sample that you surely must have used in your 'experiment'?
Workhorse said:
Hardly surprising old chap....😉
I am singularly inclined to spend my hard-earned lucre on books which contain not a trace of ill-informed unfounded speculation....
Your seem excessively given to using 'pro-amps' as a fig leaf...nay...an instrument of frenzied hand waving...without aducing any usefull well-reasoned evidence to support your submissions...
This, i am afraid, is the crux of the matter... 🙂
Mikeks.......
Persuation....
I build both amps with high DF and low DF and the result was in front our eyes and it doesn't need any type of validation from you either or from anyone........
You spend on books thats your way...we spend on R&D in real world live program analysis situation thats our way....It doesn't say that we dont spend on books also...we do spend on books maybe more than you but its much difference....realtime situation analysis is must for us or we wont stand still in the pro market for even a second.....
Anatech,
I doesn't refer the previous post to "my amps", i refer it in context to all the proamps around the world with 2KW++ levels......If you do understand well......
Kanwar
Persuation....
I build both amps with high DF and low DF and the result was in front our eyes and it doesn't need any type of validation from you either or from anyone........
You spend on books thats your way...we spend on R&D in real world live program analysis situation thats our way....It doesn't say that we dont spend on books also...we do spend on books maybe more than you but its much difference....realtime situation analysis is must for us or we wont stand still in the pro market for even a second.....
Anatech,
I doesn't refer the previous post to "my amps", i refer it in context to all the proamps around the world with 2KW++ levels......If you do understand well......
Kanwar
...and pray, what or where precisely is the hidden meaning in the following excerpt...?
Workhorse said:
'Hands-on' versus books/simulators ?
There needs to be a meeting of minds here. and at least the results of hands-on can always be auditioned !
I always find it the 'bookworms' who are the most pass-remarkable.
Cheers ........... Graham.
There needs to be a meeting of minds here. and at least the results of hands-on can always be auditioned !
I always find it the 'bookworms' who are the most pass-remarkable.
Cheers ........... Graham.
I think I can add something here.
Back 10 years when I was designing for a SE Asian company Iwas reworking their no NFB power amplifier.
First I revitalised all the NFB I could find and applied it globally.
Big improvement ( 5 pairs of ears audition)
Then I finessed each stage. More better.
Then I dumped many early stages, took out roughly half the parts, put in an input chip stage ran nested feedback like my earlier Eidetic (Australian) amplifier design.
Wonderful. Seventh Heaven. Guru. audition -
they looked inside - could not sell this. Too few parts, Not enough Hi End bits. No Go!
What was the point? I forget. But I recall as a student solving the problems of the world over charts of cheap wine and ending up with a hangover and the same world. When I DID something there was a real result.... and no hangover! Is that what experience teaches us?
Victor Papanek ('Design for the Real World' , Purdue Uni. and designer of the blow up doll) was a guiding light.
Greg
Back 10 years when I was designing for a SE Asian company Iwas reworking their no NFB power amplifier.
First I revitalised all the NFB I could find and applied it globally.
Big improvement ( 5 pairs of ears audition)
Then I finessed each stage. More better.
Then I dumped many early stages, took out roughly half the parts, put in an input chip stage ran nested feedback like my earlier Eidetic (Australian) amplifier design.
Wonderful. Seventh Heaven. Guru. audition -
they looked inside - could not sell this. Too few parts, Not enough Hi End bits. No Go!
What was the point? I forget. But I recall as a student solving the problems of the world over charts of cheap wine and ending up with a hangover and the same world. When I DID something there was a real result.... and no hangover! Is that what experience teaches us?
Victor Papanek ('Design for the Real World' , Purdue Uni. and designer of the blow up doll) was a guiding light.
Greg
Graham Maynard said:
I don't know about this old chap.....this in fact has nothing to do with simulators but good old fashioned hardware.....
Books do not, as far as i am aware, possess a 'damping factor' worthy of mention...
You of course may know different...?
Books are as good as they are......but real world realtime situation analogy is something different which you cant find in books.....nobody knows what type situation arises or encontered by an amplifier in FIELD operation.......It isolates the amp from traditional home use....
Mikeks ......the artist was formerly known as mikeK.... he says so😉
Addition of "S" changes the whole scenario....
Mikeks ......the artist was formerly known as mikeK.... he says so😉
Addition of "S" changes the whole scenario....
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