As transfer function covers both frequency responses and time responses, it is probably better not to comment. A complex non-linear transfer function would cover all the information about the system. Probably not the case at DIY forum.
That's right- a complete transfer function that included variations with amplitude, thermal history, and who-knows-what-else, would do the trick. I've no idea how to describe that, but math was never my strong point. We need that guy on Numbers 😀
I don't have a problem with using ICs in a product. There are some decent sounding opamps. However I have a problem with companies like Graham Slee selling $1200-1400 phono preamps with $15-20 total parts bill as in the September Issue of Stereophile.
I think that you are overcritical and underestimate the actual parts price. Even the empty board would cost some real money. I too, am disappointed in seeing how many IC's are used to make phono preamps. It just shows that they don't have sophisticated designers working for their company.
Srereophile mag Oct 2007
John Curl
I would have thought that it was the end result that matters, not the technology used?
I do know that Graham Slee is not restricting his designs to just the ubiquitous I.C., and is currently one of the few designers with
hands on experience in the use of the E.U. mandated SMPS supplies , and has spent a great deal of time in overcoming their inherent problems, in respect to high quality Headphone audio.
Like many high profile designers in this forum, Graham Slee also passes on his experience, and gives members of Rock Grotto Audio forum, which is a little forum devoted to mainly, but not exclusively, Headphone amplifiers and headphones , valuable information regarding related audio topics, as well as exposing "snakeoil products" for the benefit of less technical members of the forum.
Incidentally, I am currently "bedding in" Graham Slee's latest portable headphone amplifier - "Voyager", which has not yet been publicly released. Graham Slee puts his money where his mouth is, and offers incentives to the forum members in the way of a monthly prize of a GSP Audio product,to encourage active participation in the Rock Grotto forum. The award is judged on the quality of the posts, and member interest generated by the posts.
BTW, GSP Audio products are hand made in the U.K. by the designer himself, and his partner.
SandyK
John Curl
I would have thought that it was the end result that matters, not the technology used?
I do know that Graham Slee is not restricting his designs to just the ubiquitous I.C., and is currently one of the few designers with
hands on experience in the use of the E.U. mandated SMPS supplies , and has spent a great deal of time in overcoming their inherent problems, in respect to high quality Headphone audio.
Like many high profile designers in this forum, Graham Slee also passes on his experience, and gives members of Rock Grotto Audio forum, which is a little forum devoted to mainly, but not exclusively, Headphone amplifiers and headphones , valuable information regarding related audio topics, as well as exposing "snakeoil products" for the benefit of less technical members of the forum.
Incidentally, I am currently "bedding in" Graham Slee's latest portable headphone amplifier - "Voyager", which has not yet been publicly released. Graham Slee puts his money where his mouth is, and offers incentives to the forum members in the way of a monthly prize of a GSP Audio product,to encourage active participation in the Rock Grotto forum. The award is judged on the quality of the posts, and member interest generated by the posts.
BTW, GSP Audio products are hand made in the U.K. by the designer himself, and his partner.
SandyK
Grahams a top bloke, he may use op-amps in his designs but at the end of the day his designs work and sound great!
If people thought his products was over priced then they wouldn't sell,I agree with Sandyk, its the end result that matters, not the technology used.
If people thought his products was over priced then they wouldn't sell,I agree with Sandyk, its the end result that matters, not the technology used.
Horns completely destroy the back wave, almost in totality. But...they perfectly launch the leading edge of the positive pressure transient. Look at the way the human ear's mechanical and pressure response system is turned into nerve signal response. It perfectly correlates to that analysis I gave. I've been working under that premise for the past 12 years and everything has turned out sonically excellent, from that time. The gross linear numbers mean nothing to the ear, it is only actuated in it's function by the front leading edge of the positive information and the given amount of time that that given pressure front exists, as a pressure, in the ear. I very much stress that this point was not driven home in my brain by me, myself or I, but a friend whom I work with, who is also a business partner. He does acoustics, mechanical noise control, anechoic chambers, etc. Since I'm not about to get into electronics design, I expect you guys to make me a decent amplifier for me to mod out. 😀 So Here's some information to 'get it done'. 🙂
You guys keep building cruiser motocross suspensions when the ear really only wants the perfect high speed Quad engine Ocean cigarette boat. An odd analogy, but we must keep the humor in things. Lord knows I want that boat too. It'd be a blast.
There really isn't much more to say than that.
You guys keep building cruiser motocross suspensions when the ear really only wants the perfect high speed Quad engine Ocean cigarette boat. An odd analogy, but we must keep the humor in things. Lord knows I want that boat too. It'd be a blast.
There really isn't much more to say than that.
KBK, I like your input, but please don't come to conclusions. I gave up horns 30 years ago, although I miss some of their impact and other qualities. I like a realistic human voice, and the K-horns did not give that to me.
My comments on IC's is nothing personal, but I do note that most manufacturers opt for IC's rather than discrete. No IC has passed my way that would cause me to give up discrete design. If you know one, show me.
My comments on IC's is nothing personal, but I do note that most manufacturers opt for IC's rather than discrete. No IC has passed my way that would cause me to give up discrete design. If you know one, show me.
I don't think I underestimated too much. I bought the aleph boards for like $7.00 each including shipping. The two opamps in the Graham Slee preamps could cost maybe $10 then add the cost of a handful of resistors and capacitors and the case and it doesn't seem like much more to me
In the US marketing is very different than almost all other countries. Almost no consumer products have any lasting value. As of lately high-end audio is going the same way. The new stuff is so overhyped in the magazines. If the materials to build products is minimal then last years models virtually become disposable.
Yeah Graham Slee may be talented, but imagine what he could do with discrete components. The opamps are used to cut cost of designing and building the thing.
It definitely shouldn't cost $1240. If it was a computer product it would cost $99
Stereophile mag Oct 2007
labjr
If GSP Audio products were churned out by the thousands in an
Asian "sweat shop" your comments would certainly be correct. But they are not , and from my understanding, never will be.
In the case of a small operation like GSP Audio, the many 100s of hours of R&D, as well as all the regulatory costs and other imposts have to be factored in to the final product's price. Don't forget that these products are also hand built by the designer and his partner.
Their scale of operation would also preclude them from obtaining huge quantity discounts on many components.Then of course, the middlemen also take a big piece of the pie.
It must be very hard for such a small company to achieve such positive reviews in many prestiguous Audio magazines, so perhaps they are not just using manufacturer's application notes, and shoving the result in a box ?
SandyK
labjr
If GSP Audio products were churned out by the thousands in an
Asian "sweat shop" your comments would certainly be correct. But they are not , and from my understanding, never will be.
In the case of a small operation like GSP Audio, the many 100s of hours of R&D, as well as all the regulatory costs and other imposts have to be factored in to the final product's price. Don't forget that these products are also hand built by the designer and his partner.
Their scale of operation would also preclude them from obtaining huge quantity discounts on many components.Then of course, the middlemen also take a big piece of the pie.
It must be very hard for such a small company to achieve such positive reviews in many prestiguous Audio magazines, so perhaps they are not just using manufacturer's application notes, and shoving the result in a box ?
SandyK
labjr said:
So, let's see...
Cost of recovering investment made in design, development, pre-production and design administration...
+
Cost of parts (circuit board, active components, passive components, wire, switches, connectors, heatsinks, pcb-mounts, screws, washers, nuts, casework, casework printing or engraving, external power-supply, mains plug, etc.)...
+
Cost of resource to screw it together, test it, document it, pack it, dispatch it...
+
Cost of packaging, carriage and carriage insurance...
+
Cost of facilities and overheads (electricity, heat, telephone, business insurance, local business taxes, business administration, etc.)...
+
Cost of distributor margin...
+
Cost of dealer margin...
+
Cost of local sales tax...
+
Cost of export duty (possibly?)...
+
Some form of profit to keep the business afloat...
OK, get the picture?
labjr said:
And if they made 10,000 a year it probably would.
labjr said:
It should cost whatever the punter will pay. If the punter thinks it costs too much, the punter does not buy it. It has absolutely nothing to do with what it 'should' or 'should not' cost.
Have a nice day.
They don't need huge discounts. The parts cost so small proportionate to the MSRP of this product that the cost of the parts is totally irrelevant.
I don't care if it's the Holy Grail of phono preamps, I wouldn't pay $1240 for a small circuitboard with two opamps powered by a wallwart supply.
And how many opamp circuits can there be that haven't already been tried. That circuit looks simple so that someone with a photographic memory might remember it from glancing at the article in the magazine.
Stereophile mag Oct2007
labjr
Why don't you put the magazine in front of you, and try and make one that works as well as the original ?
The Chinese do that kind of thing all the time lately, and I know of people who have bought them , who have found that they sound like crap. Actual parts selection makes a huge difference to the end result. You just can't plonk in a lot of generic parts and expect the same results.
Gordy
I gather that you have previous/present experience in that area ?
SandyK
labjr
Why don't you put the magazine in front of you, and try and make one that works as well as the original ?
The Chinese do that kind of thing all the time lately, and I know of people who have bought them , who have found that they sound like crap. Actual parts selection makes a huge difference to the end result. You just can't plonk in a lot of generic parts and expect the same results.
Gordy
I gather that you have previous/present experience in that area ?
SandyK
And somewhere in that list you need to add several kilo-bucks for the emission and susceptibility and safety testing required for a CE mark, because you really can't sell without it. There's also the cost of warranty repairs and customer support, which if you're small, comes directly out of engineering and management time. IMO, low volume manufacturing gets harder every year due to ever increasing regulatory and business costs. Makes diy equipment look like a great option. BTW, if you sell something at too low a price, people may not think it's any good.
Do they get around this by using a wallwart? Outsourced from China maybe?
Warranty repairs? The stuff is throw-away!
Re: Stereophile mag Oct2007
I agree, and so does everyone else on this forum, and it is likely the reason why we are here at this form!
My point was that there is far more to a commercial product than just the handful of parts inside. Take comfort from the fact that you do know what is inside, and hence with just a little effort you can create either a clone at much lower cost, or create something far better at the same cost. Hundreds of thousands of people have either no desire to know what is inside or no technical understanding of what is inside... but you do, so you can use it to your advantage.
Not directly of audio products, but as an Electrical Engineer I tend to focus on pragmatic application development and I have gained a reasonably well developed understanding of what it takes to get something to market these days. I've worked on products at both ends of the scale... one project was 25 units / year, while my current contract sees me working on designs that are manufactured in excess of 30,000 units / year.
Oops, we seem to have strayed a little off topic...
labjr said:
I agree, and so does everyone else on this forum, and it is likely the reason why we are here at this form!
My point was that there is far more to a commercial product than just the handful of parts inside. Take comfort from the fact that you do know what is inside, and hence with just a little effort you can create either a clone at much lower cost, or create something far better at the same cost. Hundreds of thousands of people have either no desire to know what is inside or no technical understanding of what is inside... but you do, so you can use it to your advantage.
sandyK said:
Not directly of audio products, but as an Electrical Engineer I tend to focus on pragmatic application development and I have gained a reasonably well developed understanding of what it takes to get something to market these days. I've worked on products at both ends of the scale... one project was 25 units / year, while my current contract sees me working on designs that are manufactured in excess of 30,000 units / year.
Oops, we seem to have strayed a little off topic...
I am using spherical horn speakers (2 way plus active sub) from a local manufacturer and find their presentation of voices VERY realistic. Some people claim that they can still hear very slight colorations but I can’t for the heck of it. But then again I think they are lightyears ahead of the K-Horns from 30 years ago, so please don’t come to conclusions either
- Status
- Not open for further replies.