There is no way to put one or a few mic's around a drum kit (or piano) in a way to capture the sound it makes. Nor is there any way for two speakers to produce the sound of a drum kit in your room at your ears.
What good recording can do is to cook up feeds to two speakers that make people say, "That resembles the sound I sort of get when listening to a drum kit in a club".
Of course, that's just what people said listening to Edison wax cylinders too.
In 60 years of listening, I don't think I have ever mistaken sound from my speakers for the real thing even from standing away down the hallway. Have you?
I don't think I'd even mistake a cellphone ringer recording.
B.
What good recording can do is to cook up feeds to two speakers that make people say, "That resembles the sound I sort of get when listening to a drum kit in a club".
Of course, that's just what people said listening to Edison wax cylinders too.
In 60 years of listening, I don't think I have ever mistaken sound from my speakers for the real thing even from standing away down the hallway. Have you?
I don't think I'd even mistake a cellphone ringer recording.
B.
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I am not supposed to reveal this above top secret information and I will probably end up dead because I do, but Stig Carlsson is the satanic bastard child of the Galactic Nazi overlord Elvis Rothschild Trump Presley and Hillary Francesco Corleone Clinton, who stole a time machine from the secret swastika shaped base on the far side of the moon and traveled back in time to hypnotize everyone into voting for Trump in the 2016 election through his OA secret nazi Trilateral Commission Cabala technology (commonly referred to as Orto Acoustic but the true name is Occult Acoustic).
Oh sh_t!! there is a flying CIA kill squad saucer in my lawn! I have to run!!!
Great posts - I have been interested in Carlsson designs are well. Larsen speakers are available in the UK and is something I have considered.
Any further feedback on this design, basic measurements etc...? Have you created a separate forum thread for this?
Orthoacoustic simple two way Unity corner waveguide
HiFiForum.nu - Ortho möter Unity. Nu i Stereo
Most of my posted pictures and measurements are gone due to the picture hosting site I used.
Cheers - shame the images are lost... you state that it has output down to 30Hz. Any frequency response measurements you can repost?
Good luck with this build, I'll be following it.
Found a typo, fixed it for you. Bold mine.
On topic, front loaded horns get it for me.
Ben, did you really say your system won’t even fool you with a cell phone ring? I thougt I remember you arguing that “it even sounds real down the hall” no?
I have some pretty big stuff but none of it could fool a blindfolded person into thinking they might be at a real fireworks display but I have heard one system that honestly could. It was a pair of Danley J394’s with a pair of Danley BC218 subs in the center in about a 2500 square foot room. It was shock and awe for a crowd of 50-60 prosound people. On music the system literally sparkled like a true high fidelity system, with 40,000 watts of power.
That system has been my benchmark for three years now.
Barry.
Maybe I said "maybe" fooled by a recording of a cell phone ringer. We should all try this test. Certainly not by the old brass bells on old phone sets.
Perhaps fireworks or gunshots or the human voice are a true extreme test of something. But as for "sound just like", I don't think fireworks qualifies as a stable familiar reference. Remember the Edison wax cylinder testimony.
Aside from your special experience, anybody out there want to raise their hand and say "MY system sounds like a string quartet, or piano, or Diana Krall"?*
No way to put Carnegie Hall in your living room, unless your name is Carnegie. Goal is something wonderful to our ears and true to Beethoven's purpose, but not clone-sound.
B.
* when sober, of course and different rules apply in Canada since legalization
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So I tried it.
If you sit before your speakers and listen to YouTube cellphone ringers, you likely do not really think there is a little cellphone ringing in the space between them... but maybe something close making that sound.
But from down the hall, my speakers make sounds that might come from a cellphone, other than my familiar own phone. Bad test because cellphone make all kinds of crude noises and there's no benchmark.
B.
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HI Ben;
I didn't mean any offence, I was just recalling a couple of things you had mentioned that surprised me. I didn't go back and quote as I wasn't trying to be contrary.
Since this thread began as "Performance characteristics for lifelike reproduction of percussion instruments" I think the fireworks test is relevant. I believe that nearly everyone knows what real fireworks sound like and anyone who has tried to reproduce something like the Danley recording of them has very likely been met with sore disappointment. It's not the recording that disappoints, this I know.
I have on two occasions mistaken reproduction for a live event from a distance. When I walked into the building I was very very surprised. The first was a JBL SRX rig, the other was a Danley rig.
Is there such thing as HiFi PA? You bet there is.
Barry.
I didn't mean any offence, I was just recalling a couple of things you had mentioned that surprised me. I didn't go back and quote as I wasn't trying to be contrary.
Since this thread began as "Performance characteristics for lifelike reproduction of percussion instruments" I think the fireworks test is relevant. I believe that nearly everyone knows what real fireworks sound like and anyone who has tried to reproduce something like the Danley recording of them has very likely been met with sore disappointment. It's not the recording that disappoints, this I know.
I have on two occasions mistaken reproduction for a live event from a distance. When I walked into the building I was very very surprised. The first was a JBL SRX rig, the other was a Danley rig.
Is there such thing as HiFi PA? You bet there is.
Barry.
I sure believe in HiFi PA too.
Around 2001 I purchased a pair of Meyersound proaudio mts4a. Big quad-amped 4-ways used as mains in places like House of Blues.
I got them because as much as i enjoyed my Acoustat and Martin-Logan electrostats, I was left craving for bass that could be felt and for rock level dynamics.
I was very surprised that the big Meyer's not only gave me those missing dimensions, but sounded beautiful, and imaged well too.
I still have the electrostats and the Meyers which remain very enjoyable,
but for the last 10 years I've been enamored with DIY HiFi PA.
I've made several different 4-way designs built around the BMS 4594HE, on either a XT1464 or HF950 horn, and have all worked wonderfully. Very clean HiFi sound to 130+dB, from 30Hz up.
The Danley fireworks track, and some of the Falcon Heavy tracks, sound realistic to the point I fear for the equipment. It makes sweat break out on me forehead !
And I hope my sometimes ardent replies don't reflect any disrespect either. I've played the Danley great tracks for years. Actually folks, I find railroad sounds of large metal objects hitting other large metal objects are a lot more diagnostic than ballistic pulses at great distance and really show off the sub-sonic bass if you have a 17-foot labyrinth sub. (But as a BMW biker for 40 years, his Harley recordings just disgust me.)
There are many meaningful tests and then there's the problem of figuring out what the devil is realistic about fireworks in your living room, God forbid. Want to have try at defining it? Bet you can't.*
With my big dipole ESL panels and two subs away in corners, I get quite a solid image of a sound that could be identified as resembling a disembodied cellphone ringer at an azimuth midway between the panels, and small and tight, no kidding. Other mono sources likewise, including voices, as in vinyl test records of yesteryear. Likewise for nearly any on a recording because its almost always pan-stereo. In a concert hall, there's practically no localization from where I sit.
But as to opening my front door and thinking Diana Krall is visiting down the hall....
Now as for PA gear at a club, after all nearly all the sound in the club is PA whether near or far, just as a cellphone ringer is synthetic. Not a good test.
I watched a good documentary on false eyewitness testimony a few nights ago. Nearly everybody posting at DIY is an unreformable solipsist. Impossible for me to ever think "it is all in my head" or that I have anything less than perfect ear-memory for fireworks, club sounds, phone ringers....
B.
*best I've ever come up with starts with, ".... a window is open and Carnegie Hall is on the other side...."
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It seems like we’re stuck on the “in the room” thing again so let’s back up just a bit.
“Performance characteristics for lifelike reproduction of percussion instruments”
1 First of all the source material has to have it.
2 The sound system must be able to reproduce it nearly as loud as live with full bandwidth with the time / phase coherency and dynamics preserved.
If these first two requirements are not met, all the rest is less than academic.
How do I know?
I am currently listening to a pair of Community Boxer Bass Horns loaded with four JBL 2240H’s flanked by two Community Levi’s loaded with four JBL 2220J’s , topped with two Community BRH90 horns driven with JBL 2482’s which are topped with two Community SRH90 horns driven by JBL LE85’s. DSP with just under 6000 Watts of Crown power on tap.
This is my favorite system and it is on my back patio which happens to be the best room in the house.
Cheers!
Barry.
“Performance characteristics for lifelike reproduction of percussion instruments”
1 First of all the source material has to have it.
2 The sound system must be able to reproduce it nearly as loud as live with full bandwidth with the time / phase coherency and dynamics preserved.
If these first two requirements are not met, all the rest is less than academic.
How do I know?
I am currently listening to a pair of Community Boxer Bass Horns loaded with four JBL 2240H’s flanked by two Community Levi’s loaded with four JBL 2220J’s , topped with two Community BRH90 horns driven with JBL 2482’s which are topped with two Community SRH90 horns driven by JBL LE85’s. DSP with just under 6000 Watts of Crown power on tap.
This is my favorite system and it is on my back patio which happens to be the best room in the house.
Cheers!
Barry.
Thanks for asking! What DIY'er doesn't want to show their work?
My use of the bms4594 began with the Peter Morris DIY90 & 60 found on soundforums...really excellent design by a great proaudio DIY'er.
In the first pict below they are sitting on a pair of JTR Orbitshifters.
Then I got the idea to make a modular PA, that could array easily for wider coverage.
The second pict shows a trap box and the 4 horns I could put the BMS CDr on.
The size of the the horn box defined the size of 2 different mid sections, a single 12", and a double 12".
The single 12" stack is sitting on DIY single 18" sealed, and vented, subs.
The double 12" stack is sitting on DIY PPSL double 18" in push-push config.
Arraying a few stacks together can make for a hell of a big speaker.
It's all very modular, very easy to use small, or big.
The processing glue that makes it all work together, is all pieces are running zero degree flat phase via FIR, except for a little sub rotation at the very bottom end.
I really strive to eliminate any group delay...it may be why transients such as fireworks do so well....
Attachments
Barry, Great System !!! Would so love to hear it.
My 'best room' is out on my back deck too.
Constantly amazes me how much better good gear sounds outdoors...
You’re view is much better than mine! Not much water out here.
You have built some fun stuff there.
Barry.
I don't know but the best system I built was doing percussion very realistically.
Most modern speakers will lack dynamics or lack cohesion with reflex ports. You cannot have it all unless DIY.
Open baffle to have the dispersion of the sound.
For the snare and you have a broad frequency to cover, cymbals etc.
Use a 2-3 inches alnico tweeter,8 inches mid range. 12 inches woofer in quasi-OB are faster than 15 inches.
Anything aperiodic/reflex , horn will miss the coherence. Woofers need to be in corners of the room, midrange and tweeter OB with correct size panels. Room need lot of sound treatment to have a stable image between speakers.
Most modern speakers will lack dynamics or lack cohesion with reflex ports. You cannot have it all unless DIY.
Open baffle to have the dispersion of the sound.
For the snare and you have a broad frequency to cover, cymbals etc.
Use a 2-3 inches alnico tweeter,8 inches mid range. 12 inches woofer in quasi-OB are faster than 15 inches.
Anything aperiodic/reflex , horn will miss the coherence. Woofers need to be in corners of the room, midrange and tweeter OB with correct size panels. Room need lot of sound treatment to have a stable image between speakers.
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