You know... with half of Sherwood Forest wrapped up there, you should have dead cabinets.
😀 😀 😀
😀 😀 😀
Excellent! 🙂
The lower tuning should not only give you more extension, but distortion should drop considerably for a greater portion of the operating bandwidth. I.E. right now (with a tunining freq. of 24 Hz) distortion will be high at and near this freq. up to about 29-30 Hz (..and from there be very clean up to 50 Hz). With the 19 Hz tuning I'd expect that distortion would drop from the 29-30 Hz down to 23-24 Hz. This should be somewhat audible with tracks that have "hall" sound.
Leaving the mains to full operation is virtually always the way to go.. ocassionally a 1st order filter can be effective, but it depends on the speaker. You have eq. for the mains, so beyond some increased non-linear distortion, there is no benefit and only detriment to "cutting" them.
The lower tuning should not only give you more extension, but distortion should drop considerably for a greater portion of the operating bandwidth. I.E. right now (with a tunining freq. of 24 Hz) distortion will be high at and near this freq. up to about 29-30 Hz (..and from there be very clean up to 50 Hz). With the 19 Hz tuning I'd expect that distortion would drop from the 29-30 Hz down to 23-24 Hz. This should be somewhat audible with tracks that have "hall" sound.
Leaving the mains to full operation is virtually always the way to go.. ocassionally a 1st order filter can be effective, but it depends on the speaker. You have eq. for the mains, so beyond some increased non-linear distortion, there is no benefit and only detriment to "cutting" them.
I'll get the bad out the way first:
Not enough depth for my HT tastes, hopefully to be remedied with some port tuning alteration to bring it down to the original 19hz.
Air leak, but totally fixable.
The good:
This thing has an amazing amount of thud capability, by that I mean that it literally pounds the floor. I've heard lots of subs that can do this but non with the same smooth and effortless nature. You get a sense that its not even trying, when you wind up the wick a little it just gets propertionately more intense and just as effortless. I suspect the compression is very low on this design because other subs have that same controlled effortlessness at lower SPL's but the composure and control is lost as the volume increases and normally ends in just noise and a house shaking but nasty blur with lessened definition - think HT sub with large xmax driver. This is a much more fulfilling sub.
The subjective speed of the sub is one of rightness. I was playing back Massive Attack' Inertia Creeps from their album "Mezzanine". It requires extreme dexterity from the system as whole but when its right it sounds like the thing is performed right there in your room. This is a track that sounds good on most systems but really sounds tangible with something that plays to its needs. I could feel the drum pounding me as you would expect in a live situation and the propulsive nature of the sound was intense. As a quick experiment I unplugged the sub cable and played it back again - sounded like its heart had been torn out and I thought the Perceives were great up till that point, I knew they needed sub augmentation, but this much?
Distortion is a tough one to judge, let just say that in the 24-50hz that the sub operates in its inaudible and at frankly daft SPL's - way more than I'd ever consider listening to for longer than a single track, it becomes uncomfortable after that.
The real revelation came for me when I span Eat Static' track "Dionysiac" and Transwaves "Helium". Both of these have basslines that will satisfy even the most hardened bass fiend. Dionysiac in particular has an intriguing bassline that has a 40hz fundamental overlaid with a 20hz cycle, its interesting because you hear and feel the pulse of the sound. The combination of the Perceives and the sub make this so very easy to enjoy with a massive sweep of energy throughout the room that's total and pure fun.
Likewise, Helium has a less subtle bassline of a rather more massive nature.
I did manage to bottom out the driver on Dionysiac when I really pushed the volume up but since the 20hz cycle is below the port tuning and I have no rumble filter then its natural that this should happen.
You know something is right when you flick through all your bass daft CD's just to see what happens 😀 I haven't tried much subtle but arguably more demanding stuff yet as I wanted instant gratification.
Will give more thoughts tommorow and hopefully I can tweak the port tuning to what god intended(possibly your new title Scott 😀) and also fix the air leak around the driver. I'm still only using 200w to power this too
UcD700 is calling to me...
Not enough depth for my HT tastes, hopefully to be remedied with some port tuning alteration to bring it down to the original 19hz.
Air leak, but totally fixable.
The good:
This thing has an amazing amount of thud capability, by that I mean that it literally pounds the floor. I've heard lots of subs that can do this but non with the same smooth and effortless nature. You get a sense that its not even trying, when you wind up the wick a little it just gets propertionately more intense and just as effortless. I suspect the compression is very low on this design because other subs have that same controlled effortlessness at lower SPL's but the composure and control is lost as the volume increases and normally ends in just noise and a house shaking but nasty blur with lessened definition - think HT sub with large xmax driver. This is a much more fulfilling sub.
The subjective speed of the sub is one of rightness. I was playing back Massive Attack' Inertia Creeps from their album "Mezzanine". It requires extreme dexterity from the system as whole but when its right it sounds like the thing is performed right there in your room. This is a track that sounds good on most systems but really sounds tangible with something that plays to its needs. I could feel the drum pounding me as you would expect in a live situation and the propulsive nature of the sound was intense. As a quick experiment I unplugged the sub cable and played it back again - sounded like its heart had been torn out and I thought the Perceives were great up till that point, I knew they needed sub augmentation, but this much?
Distortion is a tough one to judge, let just say that in the 24-50hz that the sub operates in its inaudible and at frankly daft SPL's - way more than I'd ever consider listening to for longer than a single track, it becomes uncomfortable after that.
The real revelation came for me when I span Eat Static' track "Dionysiac" and Transwaves "Helium". Both of these have basslines that will satisfy even the most hardened bass fiend. Dionysiac in particular has an intriguing bassline that has a 40hz fundamental overlaid with a 20hz cycle, its interesting because you hear and feel the pulse of the sound. The combination of the Perceives and the sub make this so very easy to enjoy with a massive sweep of energy throughout the room that's total and pure fun.
Likewise, Helium has a less subtle bassline of a rather more massive nature.
I did manage to bottom out the driver on Dionysiac when I really pushed the volume up but since the 20hz cycle is below the port tuning and I have no rumble filter then its natural that this should happen.
You know something is right when you flick through all your bass daft CD's just to see what happens 😀 I haven't tried much subtle but arguably more demanding stuff yet as I wanted instant gratification.
Will give more thoughts tommorow and hopefully I can tweak the port tuning to what god intended(possibly your new title Scott 😀) and also fix the air leak around the driver. I'm still only using 200w to power this too
UcD700 is calling to me...As Mr. Burns says, excellent... 😀
Thanks for the more details schematic, that explains it clear enough! So was it all for style or did you want a narrowing for sonic reasons (increased velocity before entering a highly stuffed chamber?) ?
I just set-up those standmounts in a good position in my room and they sound awesome... too bad I have to give them to the guy I built them for!
Why UCD 700 rather than a high power LC Audio thing?
Thanks for the more details schematic, that explains it clear enough! So was it all for style or did you want a narrowing for sonic reasons (increased velocity before entering a highly stuffed chamber?) ?
I just set-up those standmounts in a good position in my room and they sound awesome... too bad I have to give them to the guy I built them for!
Why UCD 700 rather than a high power LC Audio thing?
ShinOBIWAN said:
Always something to strive for - and yet impossibly far to achieve. Not unlike creating a truely "perfect" audio system. 😀 (..still, with this hobby the upshot is that close can be more than good enough 😉 )
I am.. 😀
..very happy that things seem to be working out. 🙂 For me - this is the payoff that makes contributing here worthwhile.
I'll also be very interested in how the UCD fairs with the "mondo" power supply.
Tenson said:
Yep, its purely for looks Simon.
Wouldn't mind giving those a listen. I'm sure the BG ribbon is interesting and I'd expect some great bass from that Seas.
Spent plenty of time around them in a mates system, plenty of whack for sure with great control. A bit too cold sounding for full range use IMO though. Superb HT amps though.
ScottG said:
I'm loving it Scott, very addictive for music. Thanks for taking the time to outline the design
Certainly the most musically convincing sub I've ever heard in my room - beautiful freedom to the sound.Just listening to Ferry Corsten's "Freefalling" track - absolutely mesmorizing.
Its 2.30am here in the UK and I've also noticed that this will play quietly and still sound as alive and well defined as when played harder. Can't say I've ever heard that before with any of previous subs - either commercial or DIY, they normally just tend to thud away in a less convincing manner.
You've definitely converted me on this one, I used to believe that sealed was always the way to go for subs - certainly not the case here. Sealed actually sounds muted and dynamically retarded in comparison. This is certainly a very good match for the Perceives.
I'm using the cabinets completely unstuffed and without treatments at the moment. Any benefit to adding some? What I absolutely don't want to do is take anything away from the sound I've got right now. I'm inclined to leave as is, what do you reckon?
IMO, stuffing is a "No,No".
Still, that doesn't mean you can't try it.. who knows, you may find its preferable.
Hmmm....Late night listening - a favorite of mine. 🙂
"You've definitely converted me on this one.."
-resistance is futile- ALL will be assimilated. 😀
Still, that doesn't mean you can't try it.. who knows, you may find its preferable.
Hmmm....Late night listening - a favorite of mine. 🙂
"You've definitely converted me on this one.."
-resistance is futile- ALL will be assimilated. 😀
ScottG said:
Does that go for damping material as well? Do you believe that stuffing is a "no,no" in vented enclosures only or in all enclosures period? What about the same question for damping?
Stuffing and damping material are completely different things. Stuffing a vented box will mess up the airflow. Damping should be affixed to panels etc and shouldn't impede airflow.
Stuffing is to make apparant box size bigger and/or attenuate mid and high frequencies.
Damping is to reduce wall resonances.
Stuffing is to make apparant box size bigger and/or attenuate mid and high frequencies.
Damping is to reduce wall resonances.
Sounds to me like you could do with a stereo pair of subs (best anyway), a little tinkering with the DEQX, and your 19Hz dreams will easily become reality (up to the fairly mind-blowingly-loud)...
Just a thought 😉
Owen
Just a thought 😉
Owen
owen said:
All in time my good man.
I've decided that this is a keeper and planned to build a second if this condition was met.
Just playing around with a new port now, so hopefully this tunes it lower.
It just keeps on getting better 😀
I was surprised at how much difference fixing the leak around the driver has made. Slightly better control and it reaches high SPL's with an even greater sense of ease.
I've decided to give the 66mm ID port a try.
The internal volume of the enclosure is 68ltrs taking into account all bracing, driver volume as well as the tapered section within the cabinet, the port is a further 9.2ltrs. I started off with 59cm which would gave a tuning frequency of 17hz. I returned to one of my favourite sub killers - Eat Static 'Dionysiac'. About 52 seconds into the track there's a huge 16hz transient. With the sub playing alone, the first thing I notice was just how much port noise there was at high SPL's. I stuck my hand under the enclosure and sure enough there was a large amount of air being shifted. Tuning this low requires big ports, these aren't upto the job. I did eleviate the problem somewhat by raising the sub up to ~2.5" from the floor.
I listened and took a few measurements for awhile and then unscrewed the base, removed the port and cut it down to 50cm. Tested again and I have just over a 19hz tune. Not much difference in sound to be honest but about 2dB more gain at 20hz.
At the moment I'm looking to replace the port with 3" ID if possible.
I've also had more time to acclimatise to the sound.
This sub isn't really intended for HT and I would strongly suggest you look elsewhere if that's the case. It simply doesn't have the displacement to shift the amounts of air needed and *will* bottom out at high SPL's on killers such as the SW:EPII THX 'shattering glass' intro and the flyover of the space craft right after the credits. A rumble filter and multiple subs is essential therefor if you've got serious HT aspirations. Keep the levels sensible and your gifted with massively articulate bass that makes for an extremely smooth and detailed listen. I am curious to see if the UcD700 affords more control and high SPL's without bottoming.
As far as music only goes, this sub is about the best I've heard yet. I've sifted through tons of music today and each time what I heard was fantastic, not overblown, not plodding just natural.
I was surprised at how much difference fixing the leak around the driver has made. Slightly better control and it reaches high SPL's with an even greater sense of ease.
I've decided to give the 66mm ID port a try.
The internal volume of the enclosure is 68ltrs taking into account all bracing, driver volume as well as the tapered section within the cabinet, the port is a further 9.2ltrs. I started off with 59cm which would gave a tuning frequency of 17hz. I returned to one of my favourite sub killers - Eat Static 'Dionysiac'. About 52 seconds into the track there's a huge 16hz transient. With the sub playing alone, the first thing I notice was just how much port noise there was at high SPL's. I stuck my hand under the enclosure and sure enough there was a large amount of air being shifted. Tuning this low requires big ports, these aren't upto the job. I did eleviate the problem somewhat by raising the sub up to ~2.5" from the floor.
I listened and took a few measurements for awhile and then unscrewed the base, removed the port and cut it down to 50cm. Tested again and I have just over a 19hz tune. Not much difference in sound to be honest but about 2dB more gain at 20hz.
At the moment I'm looking to replace the port with 3" ID if possible.
I've also had more time to acclimatise to the sound.
This sub isn't really intended for HT and I would strongly suggest you look elsewhere if that's the case. It simply doesn't have the displacement to shift the amounts of air needed and *will* bottom out at high SPL's on killers such as the SW:EPII THX 'shattering glass' intro and the flyover of the space craft right after the credits. A rumble filter and multiple subs is essential therefor if you've got serious HT aspirations. Keep the levels sensible and your gifted with massively articulate bass that makes for an extremely smooth and detailed listen. I am curious to see if the UcD700 affords more control and high SPL's without bottoming.
As far as music only goes, this sub is about the best I've heard yet. I've sifted through tons of music today and each time what I heard was fantastic, not overblown, not plodding just natural.
Ant, do you have a myspae page cuz I want to be your friend?
I wonder if the second sub will help out for the complete HT experience.
I wonder if the second sub will help out for the complete HT experience.
I think when he says "array" he means more than 2... any idea of the battery of woofers in a real cinema??
alexcd said:
My room is small and I think 2 of these will be OK for HT at reference level. The problem is the 19hz tuning and the fact that more and more films have 10-20hz content these days. This sub eats the stuff above port tuning for breakfast, much below that it sounds a mess - a problem with all ported designs. Below tuning is pretty much like running the driver in free air, so you very quickly run out of excursion and *wham* your sub only 21mm peak-peak excursion just bottomed out.
For an average size room with a strong HT slant I'd recommend forgoing this design altogether, you could try tuning lower (~14hz) and increase the volume to around 90ltrs but by that time you should start to look at other designs because the practicality of the situation is quickly dissappearing. This sub is way to good for HT anyway, its talents are wasted on mere thumps and crashes.
If you love music and demand a sub that provides deep texture, increased space and overall scale to music without taking anything away from the performance of the main speakers then this is it.
BlackCatSound said:
They're going to be used in the replacements for the Perceives that I'll build next year.
I'm thinking line arrays with a Volt on each end of the array, 5x ATC mids(I'll have to see how much I can sell the Perceives for) per side and a line source of AC G1's.
Its all up for change of course and I strongly doubt I'll be able to afford the 10x ATC supers at a cost of ~£4k just for those alone. I'm thinking high efficiency this time so it will definitely be pro-drivers again.
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