Please do what is best for you and Scott.
Would you mind posting minutes from your discussions though?
: ) Thanks Shin!
Would you mind posting minutes from your discussions though?
: ) Thanks Shin!
jleaman said:
Sorry Jase, I've only got 20 left myself and I need those for the other 5 enclosures.
I see no reason at all why there wouldn't be interest in a Perceive Sub Bass thread. If you set one going, I'll move the approriate posts over. 😉
I'm wondering about TL for the AVC... 😀
I'm wondering about TL for the AVC... 😀
ShinOBIWAN said:
Thats OK by me.
Considering that I ramble a bit.. 😱 😀 - its probably best to limit me via more specific questions, and I'll do what I can to answer them. (..and note my experiementation with this is more than 2 (or is it 3
) years old.)
Hi Scott
Maybe its best if I outline what I'm wanting and the restrictions I'm facing?
Power: Decent amps are cheap nowadays so anything within reason
Cabinet Volume/size: Ideally no more than 150ltrs maybe a tad more.
Extension: flat to 20hz is a must but if it goes lower then all the better.
SPL: Don't need huge SPL and providing it meets the THX spec of 105dB I'll be happy, I listen to music at pretty average levels but cinema stuff does give the system a workout and I occassionally listen at reference level. Also, obviously low distortion at reasonable listening levels(~80-90dB) goes hand in hand with big SPL, afterall headroom is a nice thing to have with a sub.
And of course it goes without saying that I've been dissappointed with what I've managed to come up with so far. So I'm looking for something that is low distortion and mates up well with the Perceives.
I can't get hold of Ciare drivers here in the UK but have access to B&C, Celestion, Peavey, Volt, Eminence, JBL, Fane, Precision Devices and RCF in the pro audio arena as well as virtually all common hifi drivers such as Scan, Seas etc. etc. So providing its nothing too exotic I should be able to get hold of it.
Maybe its best if I outline what I'm wanting and the restrictions I'm facing?
Power: Decent amps are cheap nowadays so anything within reason
Cabinet Volume/size: Ideally no more than 150ltrs maybe a tad more.
Extension: flat to 20hz is a must but if it goes lower then all the better.
SPL: Don't need huge SPL and providing it meets the THX spec of 105dB I'll be happy, I listen to music at pretty average levels but cinema stuff does give the system a workout and I occassionally listen at reference level. Also, obviously low distortion at reasonable listening levels(~80-90dB) goes hand in hand with big SPL, afterall headroom is a nice thing to have with a sub.
And of course it goes without saying that I've been dissappointed with what I've managed to come up with so far. So I'm looking for something that is low distortion and mates up well with the Perceives.
I can't get hold of Ciare drivers here in the UK but have access to B&C, Celestion, Peavey, Volt, Eminence, JBL, Fane, Precision Devices and RCF in the pro audio arena as well as virtually all common hifi drivers such as Scan, Seas etc. etc. So providing its nothing too exotic I should be able to get hold of it.
ShinOBIWAN said:
I had no problems getting the tweeters in the Netherlands (mine arrived end of april 2006). As of the sound, what can I say ... 😉
Before I give my opinion I have to mention that I used several tweeters in other projects, not only listened but also measured and did some serious cross-over design (atleast 3 iterations) for the following tweeters:
Seas Milenium, Morel Supreme 110, Scan 9800, 9900 and 7000, Raidho planar, ESG 2.0 ribbon (not sure what it is called nowadays), Eton ER4, and Philips RSQP8. Not to mention a lot of cheaper (but not necessarely worse) tweeters.
Therefore my opinion is hopefully not too one-side (as I often encounter on the internet).
OK back to the 6600, I will only comment on the difference with the 7000 (your current tweeter).
Technical: Better measurements, most importantly on dispersion and distortion. Cross-over work is almost text-book (very easy to get your acoustical target curves) in that regard the 7000 is a real pain in the ***.
Soundwise the 6600 sounds more neutral, also more dynamical in the 2000 - 4000 Hz range. Misses some upper end sparkle (the 7000 has a rising response and limited dispersion, seems therefore more airy). But the most striking of this tweeter is the believable tonality sounds very convincing without colouration or edginess (sorry for the stereophile slang ...)
When compared to the older 28 domes:
The 6600 has not the harsh sounding top end of the 9900 (which I do not like that much) but is far more detailed than the 9800 (my old favourite from scanspeak, imho better to integrate in a neutral system than the 7000).
Also the 6600 is the first tweeter from scanspeak a novice could design a cross-over for (atleast when he gets the attenuation right).
I think the 6600 is the right mix between the Morel Supreme (great in combination with audiotechnology) and the Seas Millenium (synergy with the excel units, but IMHO sounds a bit muffled compared to the supreme). Also the 6600 is the cheapest of the three (atleast in the Netherlands).
To conclude, yes I think the 6600 would be an upgrade and it should be available on short notice.
Wilmslow... ugh 🙁
Pity no-one else deals in some of the wares Wilmslow flog.
Which volt radials did you try before for subs?
Pity no-one else deals in some of the wares Wilmslow flog.
Which volt radials did you try before for subs?
LaMa said:
I've been looking around for a pair after being let down by Wilmslow but I see that it isn't just a supply sourcing problem related them. Madisound and all the other places such as Strassacker etc. that I've tried give the same advice:
"Production problems have set the R3004 back until '07."
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=1197941.7164&pid=2125
Not sure if the early production ones like yours have a problem or if there's some kind of revision, TBH it could mean a lot of things.
I've said something similar to that effecthere:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=952419#post952419
Once you've worked around the problems, its a great treble unit. What I can't forgive though is that horrible price, its completely out of proportion to the sound, realistically it should be 1/2 of the current asking prices. IMO the XT25 is a very similar performer and it has less 'issues' that need to ironed out before it sounds its best.
Sounds good. Thanks for the comparison.
BTW Where about did you buy yours from? I've looked fairly hard but maybe I'm missing something. I don't mind shipping from within the EU.
BlackCatSound said:
These ones are R3863.
Strangely Volt don't have the TS or info up on their site for these drivers. I've got them in a PDF though if your wanting to take a look.
The volt website is a tad out of date 🙂
I've never tried the studio radials, only ever played with the PA ones. Got a 3823 sat here awaiting recone.
I've never tried the studio radials, only ever played with the PA ones. Got a 3823 sat here awaiting recone.
Mono or L&R channels?
If L&R then both 140 liters?
Response targeted for flat in-room or actually flat?
Eq. available or not?
Floor facing woofer(s) or not?
Even without knowing the answers to these questions I can tell you based on available driver manufacturer's (i.e. low x-max drivers), the low distortion requirement, and the required sp-level of 105db at 20 Hz. That you will almost certainly have to go the route of the ciare build (..though without ciare - which is OK). The nice thing here then is that only a mono sub is required and you could always use the Velodyne SMS-1.
I'll start looking at the manuf.s you have listed for a suitable driver.. It will take a while, but I'm fairly confident we can get the "transparency" and "slam" you want (..provided of course you have an amp with a "honking" power supply).
If L&R then both 140 liters?
Response targeted for flat in-room or actually flat?
Eq. available or not?
Floor facing woofer(s) or not?
Even without knowing the answers to these questions I can tell you based on available driver manufacturer's (i.e. low x-max drivers), the low distortion requirement, and the required sp-level of 105db at 20 Hz. That you will almost certainly have to go the route of the ciare build (..though without ciare - which is OK). The nice thing here then is that only a mono sub is required and you could always use the Velodyne SMS-1.
I'll start looking at the manuf.s you have listed for a suitable driver.. It will take a while, but I'm fairly confident we can get the "transparency" and "slam" you want (..provided of course you have an amp with a "honking" power supply).
ScottG said:
It looks like its going to have to be mono now. I simply don't have the room to house 2 x 150ltr enclosures. If I went stereo then realistically the most I could manage is 80ltrs for each.
So if mono, 150ltr and if stereo then 2 x 80ltrs.
In room flat to 20hz or lower.
EQ is fine but preferably slight amounts applied otherwise distortion just goes through the roof very very quickly.
No real preference. So whatever really.
Well I could quite easily DIY some amp kit with a beefy supply and know that its upto the job.
Oh and cheers Scott.
tinitus said:
I think you misunderstood, I mentioned 20hz flat in-room and I'm open to EQ if it benefits the sound.
But...
Flat to 20hz in-room and with a 150ltr volume can be achieved with relative ease providing you've got the driver/alignment right. And that's without EQ.
The BK XLS which is a Peerless XLS10 in an 18ltr sealed enclosure along with one of their 200w plate amps reached 24hz flat in-room, this was with no EQ BTW.
I'm not necessarily looking for something that will bend buildings but the home theater side of things gets pretty intense when you've got sub 20hz performance.
ShinOBIWAN said:
😀
Ok, after going through every manufacturer and P-Audio as well there was one stand-out driver. Unfortunetly that driver is one of the most expensive in the UK. 🙄 (..cheapest I found for the UK was 179 each)
http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php...escrizione=2&prodotto=6&id_descrizione_prod=2
To make matters worse I'm suggesting 2 drivers here (to halve excusion)..
On the otherhand considering just how weak the dollar is vs. the pound (i.e. almost 2 dollars to 1 pound right now), you might consider a US purchase and ship.. with that in mind take a gander at this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pair-B-C-12TBX1...ameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
In any event here are my thoughts on the design:
1. stick with your design that matches the perceives (either view).
2. 2 identical enclosures, each 63 liters internal volume, no *stuffing.
3. definitly use cement baffles on both (..7.6 cm thick).
4. use a **port with a tuning around 19Hz.
5. port length about 56 cm and internal diameter 7.6 cm.
6. vent port at bottom of cabinet facing floor or platform.
7. vent located half-way from baffle and 1/3rd from interior edge side-wall.
8. use straight drinking straws cut in half stuffed into port exit flush.
9. have a cavity space around port exit and out to interior edge side-wall double the 7.6 cm (15. 2 cm) of the port (similar to Avalon), with about 4 cm of air space between the bottom of the cabinet and the floor or platform (i.e the cabinet should be raised off of the floor/platform this distance).
10. parallel connect the two drivers to the one amp.
11. keep the two cabinets moderatly close to each other (perhaps half, or even only 1/3rd the cabinet width for the spacing distance).
Now I could improve the distortion and power handeling on this design, but the esthetics would have to change substantially. (..let me know if your are interested in this).
I would have preferred a 4 inch diameter port instead of a 3 inch as spec'ed, but we would be talking double the length - and that would not conform to your esthetic design where the 3 inch should *just* be able to.. (and note this is without pipe bends.. because they are baddddd.)
*stuffing in general is a good idea, the problem is that it provides acoustic resistance and invariably the "cure it provides is worse than the disese" - so avoid it. Instead I prefer this product in a latex primer (double the recomended amount) painted on interior surfaces including the driver's frame and magnet with multiple coats (at least 5):
http://www.hytechsales.com/insulating_paint_additives.html
Stuffing could be used in a cylindrical form, (like a roll of paper "towels"), that matched the driver's magnet in diameter - placed a little behind the magnet (at least 5 inches) and extending almost to the rear cabinet wall (leaving about 5 inches between).
**I prefer ports, substantially so. PR's don't seem to sound "fast" enough. This might be different if the sd of the PR was VERY large and its surround was super compliant - BUT that would likely lead to "sag". In fact I wouldn't suggest this design at all if PR's were chosen.
as to the combined response (and note that all of this is based on one driver, not two):
The driver averages about 94 db. The response at 19 Hz statically is about 12.5 db down. With the floor boundry load the port will gain almost 3db. The net then is about 9.5db down, or aproximatly 84.5 db. With average room gain from 50 Hz to 19 Hz the output should be fairly flat in the operating passband. Depending on how well the room is "sealed" the response may be flat from 200 Hz down to 19 Hz, but this is unlikely in most domestic situations. This means that it is likely that the region above 50 Hz will be higher in level than the 50-19 Hz passband, but with a good crossover (particularly one with eq.) this won't be a problem. Note that in any event the crossover should be as steep as possible to effectivly cut the response of the woofer near its in-box resonance (which will be above 50 Hz). Considering various acoustical gain the 105 db at 20 Hz will pose no problem at all.
When you consider acoustical gain, the extra driver, and cutting below driver resonance, distortion should be fairly low when compared to most other designs
Hmm did I say something about me rambling-on? 😉
Scott,
Why the proaudio rec? The Fs for that woofer is 42hz, quite a bit high for a sub isn't it?
Why the proaudio rec? The Fs for that woofer is 42hz, quite a bit high for a sub isn't it?
JoshK said:
The primary reason for going "pro" is high force (with a little less mass) - it invariably gives a propulsive/dynamic sound that is also quite transparent. Above all else Shin wants this quality (..as do most who have heard the difference).
as to the high fs.
fs is essentially where the driver will have the highest distortion. If possible we want to move this resonance out of the passband. You can do this by shifting the resonance above or below the passband with different methods (smaller volume or mass loading respectivly).
Its interesting that higher distortion is more detrimental to sound quality in the hall-sound region than higher up near a direct sound fundamental. In other words we are more concerned with distortion from about 38 Hz *down* with most recordings. By shifting resonance up in the passband we can obtain better distortion at lower freq.s provided that a-typical direct sound fundamentals are not being reproduced in this passband. (..note that the port tunning also is a resonant behavior - effecting system compliance and increasing distortion at the resonance, but its more "narrow" and with the floor loading technique it will be dampened and allow for more current control and lower distortion.)
Tenson provided some subjective comments on the eminence magnum 12 (which likely isn't as good as the B&C), and some CSD plots free-air:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80653&perpage=10&pagenumber=7
Now distortion from resonance usually rears its ugly presence just a little above fs - from this then I'd say the eminence's fs is currently between 49 Hz and 53 Hz because the major linear problem is at about 57 Hz. Notice what linear decay is like below fs - i.e. pretty clean given the wavelengths involved. This greatly contributes to "transparency".
ScottG said:
Thanks for the explanation. This is different then typical audiophile 'knowledge', so its new to me.
Put me down as one who also loves the dynamic punchy sound.
Paint Finishing Technique
I've had a few emails about the finish technique I used on the Percieves so I've decided to try and capture the finishing process again and also add some useful commentary on what I do throughout. The last time I tried this it was on a silver basecoat and you could hardly tell the difference between each step. This time its on a black basecoat and the differences are very apparent.
What I use:
You don't need hundreds of pounds worth of kit and product to get a very nice looking finish. I use a Makita palm sander which cost around £45, I know some will look on in horror as I mention I use this to flat back all the orange peel left over after spraying but it works great and does the job in quarter of the time it takes to sand by hand, this is absolutely indispensable if your A. lazy or B. have large cabinets - I fit both of those 😉 I find that a decent quality 1/4 sheet palm sander is more preferable to a larger and heavier 1/2 or 1/3 sheet sander, the obvious reasons being more lightweight and you will appreciate that after holding it for a couple of hours! And it also provides more finesse and less vibration both of which make the final finish that bit better.
After the palm sander comes the sanding paper and I'd highly recommend you buy the very best you can find. For me that's 3M silicon carbide 2000grit, this stuff provides a brilliant cutting action but only leaves very light scratching of the surface which makes the rubbing compound and polishing steps that much easier. Its also rather forgiving and only takes off a very small amount of paint material providing you don't do something daft like stand on the sander whilst flating out the finish, so what this means is you can easily control where to take more paint off whilst avoiding going too far and pushing through the paint, which you absolutely don't want because it means you just wrecked all your hardwork and you'll need to re-spray.
Just another quick note, the better the paper the better the cutting action, buy cheap and you'll likely get a naff and scratched to hell finish that takes twice as much rubbing compound to fix. Better sand paper means less work and a better finish. Cheap sand paper also tends to fall apart or becomes ineffectual after a few minutes of sanding. I can't stress enough about the decent sand paper thing, one of the very best there is would have to be 3M 'purple' line, which are easily identified as they're purple. 😉
Here's the sand paper I use: http://www.paints4u.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=6030
All sanding is done wet and all I do is use a softish cloth peroidically soaked in water and apply this to the cabinet and then sand with the palm sander. Regularly wet the surface to keep it both clean and also not to allow the removed paint material to start to gather and clog, you'll know when this happens because the sander doesn't glide so easily and starts to dig into the work.
The rest of the stuff that I use is as follows:
Cutting compound - Farecla G3: http://www.paints4u.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=2789
Ultra Fine Cutting Polish - National Grade-A: http://www.paints4u.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=536
And these: http://www.paints4u.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=5577
Be sure to buy/use at least 4 of these finishing cloths. You'll need one for applying the G3 cutting compound, another to rub off the dry residue, one for the ultra fine cutting polish and another to wipe off and buff after using that. Last thing you want is to start using a cloth that has been used to wipe G3 rubbing compound off the work only to use it to 'try' and buff after polishing, all you'll do is scratch the work to hell. Keep them seperate and you'll get a much better finish. Again, be sure to get some decent soft and lint-free finishing cloths, the best ones leave no swirl marks, those linked to above are in this catagory and I recommend them.
Another important note is make sure they're clean with no dried on cr@p, dust or grit before you start, most are machine washable too.
Step1:
You'll start off with something that looks like this:
Notice all that orange peel, it has a decent gloss but the reflection is very distorted by the surface imperfections cause by the orange peel. You can get a *much* better looking finish than this with a little work.
First thing to do is get the palm sander, your decent quality 2000grit sanding paper and wet sand like I mentioned above. Go light with the sander and move in horizontal full length strokes until you've covered the work and then move in vertical strokes, keep alternating between these - the reason for doing this is to keep the surface more uniform as a high gloss finish will highlight even the smallest surface level imperfections. You don't have to get it perfect, or maybe you do but providing you take reasonable care you'll get a better looking piece.
After you've made your first couple of passes you'll notice the dull sanded surface and the glossy untouched pits. Ideally we want rid of every single one of those glossy pits, so keep sanding (carefully!) until all you can see is a dull surface with no gloss pits, when you get to this stage you'll know you have a 'flat' surface and the orange peel has been removed. Be sure to switch to wet sanding by hand on tricky bits like the bevels you see on the example photo's and only use the palm sander for larger surfaces.
Replace your sandpaper when you notice its not really doing much and always take more care with fresh sand paper.
After you've done all that you'll have something that looks like this:
IMPORTANT: Be sure to sand the entire cabinet in this manner before moving onto step2! This ensures that you don't undo work done by rubbing compound etc. with a slip of the sand paper. Complete each step for the entire cabinet first and then move onto the next.
Step2:
Clean down the work using soapy water to remove any sandpaper grit and then wipe dry.
Now its time for the rubbing compound. I use the Farecla G3 stuff and it works well, there are others so choose a good quality one if this isn't available.
The first thing to do here is wet one of the finishing cloths mention above and wring it out so its just damp. Apply a *small* amount of cutting compound and get to work. I use use horizontal and vertical motions but anything works here so do whatever feels most natural to you. When you first start working the compound into the paint you'll notice its quite gritty and then after some rubbing you'll see it turns to a fine paste and it becomes harder to work the surface - this is good! Keep at it until the rubbing compound virtually dissappears from the surface of the paint and is instead, a dry residue on the finishing cloth - this is the correct way to apply rubbing compound and NOT how I and most others did when we first started with all this ie. apply loads of rubbing compound and then just scratch the hell out of the surface because it never really brakes down into the fine paste/dry residue I mentioned above. Remember that rubbing compound starts out coarse but gets finer as you work it more.
Once you get to the point where you're working just the dry residue then apply more rubbing compound to a clean part of the finishing cloth.
IMPORTANT: Cutting compound is quite harsh when freshly applied, be sure to exercise extra care when dealing with corners or sharp angles as you can push through the paint and ruin all the hardwork you've done so far 🙁
After the first pass my work looks like this:
You can clearly see a reflection now but the surface is still very scratched leaving a misty reflection that looks pretty poor.
This is after 4 passes:
You can clearly see the reflection now and the scratches remaining are light and only visable up close, its at this stage that the rubbing compound has done its job and we must move onto something with a very fine cutting action such as the Grade-A polish if we want to better the shine and contrast of the reflection and also fully remove the scratches.
Step3:
This is the where we apply the very fine cutting action polish. I use National Grade-A polish and again I highly recommend it but as always there's tons of different brands so just pick something well respect and that is described as having a mild or fine cutting action on the label.
The procedure here is very much the same as with the cutting compound ie. apply in small amount and work in thoroughly - read step 2 for a little more info.
This is the result after 2 passes:
Now its really looking well with lots of contrast to the reflection. Still some very fine swirl marks but these get less and less with each pass.
And finally this is the end result after 6 passes:
The end result is a pretty awesome gloss finish that looks every bit as good as you'd see on an expensive car. Virtually all the swirl marks have gone and there's definitely no scratches.
In the end this is about 95% close to what a proffesional would produce and all it took was some time, care and enthusiasm.
I hope this is of some help to folks and if you have any more questions please feel free to ask.
I've had a few emails about the finish technique I used on the Percieves so I've decided to try and capture the finishing process again and also add some useful commentary on what I do throughout. The last time I tried this it was on a silver basecoat and you could hardly tell the difference between each step. This time its on a black basecoat and the differences are very apparent.
What I use:
You don't need hundreds of pounds worth of kit and product to get a very nice looking finish. I use a Makita palm sander which cost around £45, I know some will look on in horror as I mention I use this to flat back all the orange peel left over after spraying but it works great and does the job in quarter of the time it takes to sand by hand, this is absolutely indispensable if your A. lazy or B. have large cabinets - I fit both of those 😉 I find that a decent quality 1/4 sheet palm sander is more preferable to a larger and heavier 1/2 or 1/3 sheet sander, the obvious reasons being more lightweight and you will appreciate that after holding it for a couple of hours! And it also provides more finesse and less vibration both of which make the final finish that bit better.
After the palm sander comes the sanding paper and I'd highly recommend you buy the very best you can find. For me that's 3M silicon carbide 2000grit, this stuff provides a brilliant cutting action but only leaves very light scratching of the surface which makes the rubbing compound and polishing steps that much easier. Its also rather forgiving and only takes off a very small amount of paint material providing you don't do something daft like stand on the sander whilst flating out the finish, so what this means is you can easily control where to take more paint off whilst avoiding going too far and pushing through the paint, which you absolutely don't want because it means you just wrecked all your hardwork and you'll need to re-spray.
Just another quick note, the better the paper the better the cutting action, buy cheap and you'll likely get a naff and scratched to hell finish that takes twice as much rubbing compound to fix. Better sand paper means less work and a better finish. Cheap sand paper also tends to fall apart or becomes ineffectual after a few minutes of sanding. I can't stress enough about the decent sand paper thing, one of the very best there is would have to be 3M 'purple' line, which are easily identified as they're purple. 😉
Here's the sand paper I use: http://www.paints4u.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=6030
All sanding is done wet and all I do is use a softish cloth peroidically soaked in water and apply this to the cabinet and then sand with the palm sander. Regularly wet the surface to keep it both clean and also not to allow the removed paint material to start to gather and clog, you'll know when this happens because the sander doesn't glide so easily and starts to dig into the work.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The rest of the stuff that I use is as follows:
Cutting compound - Farecla G3: http://www.paints4u.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=2789
Ultra Fine Cutting Polish - National Grade-A: http://www.paints4u.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=536
And these: http://www.paints4u.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=5577
Be sure to buy/use at least 4 of these finishing cloths. You'll need one for applying the G3 cutting compound, another to rub off the dry residue, one for the ultra fine cutting polish and another to wipe off and buff after using that. Last thing you want is to start using a cloth that has been used to wipe G3 rubbing compound off the work only to use it to 'try' and buff after polishing, all you'll do is scratch the work to hell. Keep them seperate and you'll get a much better finish. Again, be sure to get some decent soft and lint-free finishing cloths, the best ones leave no swirl marks, those linked to above are in this catagory and I recommend them.
Another important note is make sure they're clean with no dried on cr@p, dust or grit before you start, most are machine washable too.
Step1:
You'll start off with something that looks like this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Notice all that orange peel, it has a decent gloss but the reflection is very distorted by the surface imperfections cause by the orange peel. You can get a *much* better looking finish than this with a little work.
First thing to do is get the palm sander, your decent quality 2000grit sanding paper and wet sand like I mentioned above. Go light with the sander and move in horizontal full length strokes until you've covered the work and then move in vertical strokes, keep alternating between these - the reason for doing this is to keep the surface more uniform as a high gloss finish will highlight even the smallest surface level imperfections. You don't have to get it perfect, or maybe you do but providing you take reasonable care you'll get a better looking piece.
After you've made your first couple of passes you'll notice the dull sanded surface and the glossy untouched pits. Ideally we want rid of every single one of those glossy pits, so keep sanding (carefully!) until all you can see is a dull surface with no gloss pits, when you get to this stage you'll know you have a 'flat' surface and the orange peel has been removed. Be sure to switch to wet sanding by hand on tricky bits like the bevels you see on the example photo's and only use the palm sander for larger surfaces.
Replace your sandpaper when you notice its not really doing much and always take more care with fresh sand paper.
After you've done all that you'll have something that looks like this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
IMPORTANT: Be sure to sand the entire cabinet in this manner before moving onto step2! This ensures that you don't undo work done by rubbing compound etc. with a slip of the sand paper. Complete each step for the entire cabinet first and then move onto the next.
Step2:
Clean down the work using soapy water to remove any sandpaper grit and then wipe dry.
Now its time for the rubbing compound. I use the Farecla G3 stuff and it works well, there are others so choose a good quality one if this isn't available.
The first thing to do here is wet one of the finishing cloths mention above and wring it out so its just damp. Apply a *small* amount of cutting compound and get to work. I use use horizontal and vertical motions but anything works here so do whatever feels most natural to you. When you first start working the compound into the paint you'll notice its quite gritty and then after some rubbing you'll see it turns to a fine paste and it becomes harder to work the surface - this is good! Keep at it until the rubbing compound virtually dissappears from the surface of the paint and is instead, a dry residue on the finishing cloth - this is the correct way to apply rubbing compound and NOT how I and most others did when we first started with all this ie. apply loads of rubbing compound and then just scratch the hell out of the surface because it never really brakes down into the fine paste/dry residue I mentioned above. Remember that rubbing compound starts out coarse but gets finer as you work it more.
Once you get to the point where you're working just the dry residue then apply more rubbing compound to a clean part of the finishing cloth.
IMPORTANT: Cutting compound is quite harsh when freshly applied, be sure to exercise extra care when dealing with corners or sharp angles as you can push through the paint and ruin all the hardwork you've done so far 🙁
After the first pass my work looks like this:
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You can clearly see a reflection now but the surface is still very scratched leaving a misty reflection that looks pretty poor.
This is after 4 passes:
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You can clearly see the reflection now and the scratches remaining are light and only visable up close, its at this stage that the rubbing compound has done its job and we must move onto something with a very fine cutting action such as the Grade-A polish if we want to better the shine and contrast of the reflection and also fully remove the scratches.
Step3:
This is the where we apply the very fine cutting action polish. I use National Grade-A polish and again I highly recommend it but as always there's tons of different brands so just pick something well respect and that is described as having a mild or fine cutting action on the label.
The procedure here is very much the same as with the cutting compound ie. apply in small amount and work in thoroughly - read step 2 for a little more info.
This is the result after 2 passes:
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Now its really looking well with lots of contrast to the reflection. Still some very fine swirl marks but these get less and less with each pass.
And finally this is the end result after 6 passes:
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The end result is a pretty awesome gloss finish that looks every bit as good as you'd see on an expensive car. Virtually all the swirl marks have gone and there's definitely no scratches.
In the end this is about 95% close to what a proffesional would produce and all it took was some time, care and enthusiasm.
I hope this is of some help to folks and if you have any more questions please feel free to ask.
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