The SMPS's arrived today.
Unfortunately I need a few extra parts before I can give them a go but they are certainly compact and the price was right.
Over the weekend I've been listening to the GC's some more and I can't help but think they sound better without the Blackgates. So I removed all of them and replaced with the Pana FC's. After this I connected them upto the DEQX and a single Perceive, my original thoughts about the GC improved, no doubt because each driver had its own amp with no crossover in the way but you can't really assess much from listening on a single speaker and the wow factor is missing but I did note that the GC's seemed particularly quiet with no signal playing and the overall tonality was very even. I even tried a GC with the ATC bass but it sounded as though everything was rounded off and smoothed out, the focus and control had gone. The Chord on the other hand provided a much better presentation at whatever driver it was in control of, this was especially noticable on the mid and bass but I even noticed it with the tweeter too. Overall they aren't as bad as I first made out but they do lack control, at least on the ATC's and this is very noticable at loud levels, where they made the Perceive sound terrible. It was all a bit of an anticlimax as I know the Perceives sounded much better the last time I heard them/it a few months ago.
After I got bored playing around with the DEQX, its my first time I've really got a chance to have a serious play with it, I moved back to the SCM7's and was distinctly unimpressed yet again. Amps usually don't massively affect the sound of the speakers, at least not that I've really heard, but the GC's definitely don't like some drivers/speakers. The sound is dark, boring and rough sounding, definitely not a nice listen. Dissappointing overall because the SCM7's sounded good on the end of the GB150's and GB300's.
After this I decided to try those cheapo Audax monitors and these were obviously much more to the GC's liking. They actually sounded really nice considering the the pair of GC's powering them cost around £100 in parts and the speakers £50. They actually sounded better than with the GC's on the SCM7's and that's not something I'd say normally.
One thing I haven't played around with is a bigger PS resevoir. I'm still with 1500uf on each rail. Maybe this will improve matters overall on tough loads like the ATC's.
One thing that has surprised me the most is how an amp can affect the sound of a speaker so much. I've never heard this before and since the GC is well regarded it must be a good performer but it does have a lot of problems driving some speakers at even moderate levels with full control.
The SMPS may make for some interesting changes but I can't see this addition bridging the gap I'm looking to cross in regards to the ATC's. Overall I'm dissappointed but I can see that they can sound nice with some speakers as witnessed with the Audax's.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Unfortunately I need a few extra parts before I can give them a go but they are certainly compact and the price was right.
Over the weekend I've been listening to the GC's some more and I can't help but think they sound better without the Blackgates. So I removed all of them and replaced with the Pana FC's. After this I connected them upto the DEQX and a single Perceive, my original thoughts about the GC improved, no doubt because each driver had its own amp with no crossover in the way but you can't really assess much from listening on a single speaker and the wow factor is missing but I did note that the GC's seemed particularly quiet with no signal playing and the overall tonality was very even. I even tried a GC with the ATC bass but it sounded as though everything was rounded off and smoothed out, the focus and control had gone. The Chord on the other hand provided a much better presentation at whatever driver it was in control of, this was especially noticable on the mid and bass but I even noticed it with the tweeter too. Overall they aren't as bad as I first made out but they do lack control, at least on the ATC's and this is very noticable at loud levels, where they made the Perceive sound terrible. It was all a bit of an anticlimax as I know the Perceives sounded much better the last time I heard them/it a few months ago.
After I got bored playing around with the DEQX, its my first time I've really got a chance to have a serious play with it, I moved back to the SCM7's and was distinctly unimpressed yet again. Amps usually don't massively affect the sound of the speakers, at least not that I've really heard, but the GC's definitely don't like some drivers/speakers. The sound is dark, boring and rough sounding, definitely not a nice listen. Dissappointing overall because the SCM7's sounded good on the end of the GB150's and GB300's.
After this I decided to try those cheapo Audax monitors and these were obviously much more to the GC's liking. They actually sounded really nice considering the the pair of GC's powering them cost around £100 in parts and the speakers £50. They actually sounded better than with the GC's on the SCM7's and that's not something I'd say normally.
One thing I haven't played around with is a bigger PS resevoir. I'm still with 1500uf on each rail. Maybe this will improve matters overall on tough loads like the ATC's.
One thing that has surprised me the most is how an amp can affect the sound of a speaker so much. I've never heard this before and since the GC is well regarded it must be a good performer but it does have a lot of problems driving some speakers at even moderate levels with full control.
The SMPS may make for some interesting changes but I can't see this addition bridging the gap I'm looking to cross in regards to the ATC's. Overall I'm dissappointed but I can see that they can sound nice with some speakers as witnessed with the Audax's.
Member
Joined 2002
What's wrong with passive ? This is what im running now.. Speakers on loan.!
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
ShinOBIWAN said:
You really should have built a Krell you know! 😀
Jason, I may be wrong but those speakers look like full range from here. What on earth are you using a crossover for?
jleaman said:
Nowt wrong with passive at all. Whatever suits is good.
The passive vs. active argument has been done to death already. Both are very valid in the right hands.
Member
Joined 2002
I went searching through the previous pages with no luck...
are those conectors used on your perceives normal xlr connectors or medical grade etc...were did you get em?
are those conectors used on your perceives normal xlr connectors or medical grade etc...were did you get em?
trusound said:
I received your email about this and replied, not sure if you got it now though.
Eitherway...
The connectors are Neutrik speakon connectors from the FX series. They're good and sturdy but my only complaint is that the male plug has solder lugs and you need a robust soldering iron to solder in thick gauge wire. Its fiddly but doable. There's also a version with faston's which I wish I'd gone for now but anyway...
sorry....I'm a waterhead and just realized I haven't changed contact info since I left my previous employer and didn't get your reply...Thanks!!!!!
trusound said:
No problems 🙂
I prefer the speakons because you can group upto 8 wires in a single run and the FX series allows for thick gauge wire without problems. Just looks neater and more secure to me.
They aren't gold plated though
So the sound quality is very inferior to the £50 a pop WBT's 😀One thing I haven't played around with is a bigger PS resevoir. I'm still with 1500uf on each rail
That four channel chipamp I mentioned. It had 1500uF per
rail as the big caps, but I added more. I found
some 6800uF caps at the surplus store for cheap.
That is 27,200uF per rail plus the 1500uF of local
capacitance on each module. It was an esoteric
design, over 33,000uF total per rail.
AC input -> filter -> transformer -> recifier -> large
cap bank -> rectifier -> 1500uf cap -> chip amp.
Those chipamp boards with the 1500uF cap also
had the rectifiers. You have two choices, redo the design
so there is one rectifier or do something esoteric with
two recitifiers and two isolated banks of caps. I chose
the simple path because the boards were assembled by
the owner, I just had to fix his errors and redo things.
Essentially you have 27,200uF per rail as the master
bank that feeds all four modules, then the onboard
recifier per module isolates the master bank from
the localized bank which includes it's own 1500uf per rail.
Bottom line. The chipamps no matter how esoteric you
do things, the lack of power they provide is the biggest
weakness.
Don't mess around with GC's, they are junk for series loudspeakers if you want to push your speakers to their
performance limits. I'd use GC's as a headphone amp
That four channel chipamp I mentioned. It had 1500uF per
rail as the big caps, but I added more. I found
some 6800uF caps at the surplus store for cheap.
That is 27,200uF per rail plus the 1500uF of local
capacitance on each module. It was an esoteric
design, over 33,000uF total per rail.
AC input -> filter -> transformer -> recifier -> large
cap bank -> rectifier -> 1500uf cap -> chip amp.
Those chipamp boards with the 1500uF cap also
had the rectifiers. You have two choices, redo the design
so there is one rectifier or do something esoteric with
two recitifiers and two isolated banks of caps. I chose
the simple path because the boards were assembled by
the owner, I just had to fix his errors and redo things.
Essentially you have 27,200uF per rail as the master
bank that feeds all four modules, then the onboard
recifier per module isolates the master bank from
the localized bank which includes it's own 1500uf per rail.
Bottom line. The chipamps no matter how esoteric you
do things, the lack of power they provide is the biggest
weakness.
Don't mess around with GC's, they are junk for series loudspeakers if you want to push your speakers to their
performance limits. I'd use GC's as a headphone amp
thylantyr said:Don't mess around with GC's, they are junk for series loudspeakers if you want to push your speakers to their
performance limits. I'd use GC's as a headphone amp
Bit unfair. But at this point I'm not going to argue too much.
I'm dissappointed personally. These definitely aren't getting used with the Perceives but I'm looking to 'activate' those Audax monitors and a pair will do nicely for that along with an SMPS for compactness.
I'm fast getting bored of amp swapping. I think I'll just go with some Class D amplification, Lars Clausens new design looks sweet. Still very anemic at 400w though Thy 🙂
The QSC SRA series looks pretty nice too.
I like Thy's American Muscle approach philosphy. Not sure I agree with it like most people across this side of the pond, but like it nonetheless.
the whole american muscle approach are things that we have been doing in car audio for years...including fully active setups which IMO are the only way to go both home and car
Member
Joined 2002
thylantyr said:One thing I haven't played around with is a bigger PS resevoir. I'm still with 1500uf on each rail
That four channel chipamp I mentioned. It had 1500uF per
rail as the big caps, but I added more. I found
some 6800uF caps at the surplus store for cheap.
That is 27,200uF per rail plus the 1500uF of local
capacitance on each module. It was an esoteric
design, over 33,000uF total per rail.
AC input -> filter -> transformer -> recifier -> large
cap bank -> rectifier -> 1500uf cap -> chip amp.
Those chipamp boards with the 1500uF cap also
had the rectifiers. You have two choices, redo the design
so there is one rectifier or do something esoteric with
two recitifiers and two isolated banks of caps. I chose
the simple path because the boards were assembled by
the owner, I just had to fix his errors and redo things.
Essentially you have 27,200uF per rail as the master
bank that feeds all four modules, then the onboard
recifier per module isolates the master bank from
the localized bank which includes it's own 1500uf per rail.
Bottom line. The chipamps no matter how esoteric you
do things, the lack of power they provide is the biggest
weakness.
Don't mess around with GC's, they are junk for series loudspeakers if you want to push your speakers to their
performance limits. I'd use GC's as a headphone amp
I agree *BUT* i don't agree. Power has nothing to do with it. It is how efficient the speakers are.. I run 4 x 15 watt class a amps. PLENTY of power for any speakers i have. And i can say it now that the monsters i have now are not the most efficient thing either. It all has to do with design layout..
NOW i do agree that chip amps are crap and are for people who want a low budget amplifier and something simple to start out with. I'll never add another chip amp to my audio setup. To me you could put as many parts as you want into it and it will still sound horrible. It's suppose to be a simple amp but i see so many people snubberizing them adding more caps more resistors etc etc it's all a waste.
Search the forum look for something else..
Oh and one comment WHY did you go to a SMPS psu.. are you nuts.. that's the worst thing you could stick into your audio system. ? Who suggested these things to you...
Just my own 2 cent's.
jleaman said:
😀
Wow the GC's are taking a beating. I only think they're poor in light of stuff like the AKSA, SKA and Chord. They're small budget amps that aren't suited to tough loads IMO. However they sound nice on the end of light loads. I'm pretty picky about this stuff but they're not quite junk.
I've also got some LM3886 coming from Vikash and I'll give these a whirl too. Its all good fun.
Its a common belief that SMPS is useless for audio. However they were cheap(£58 for 4 modules) and also have a good following in GC and class D circles. Its just something else to try and let's face it; I couldn't buy 4x 300VA toroids for that. I've already said that based on my couple of days playing that I won't be using GC's, SMPS or not, with the Perceives.
On another note look at class D, its switching technology but I've heard the UcD700AD's and they couldn't be further from 'the worst thing that you could stick in your audio system'.
GC and ATC
The main problem with chip amps is their power (or lack of it!) and its SPIKE protection circuit which is very intrusive (and audible). My guess that is what you have heard when driving ATCs.
ATCs are renowned power eaters. Even with 'super' 75-150 mids in them, my friend's ATC 100 (now on permanent "loan" at my place as he moved to Taiwan 😀 ) take full blast from my DIY Krell KMA200 clones (reduced to KSA100 status by lowering bias, but with full gamut of 32 output transistors) and simply have that "is that best you could do?" unfazed feel to them. Bill W. recommended 150-1500W(!) for 100's and I can tell you he was not joking.
Bottom line - ATCs need power. Lots of it. Nothing wrong with 3875/3886's per se, but in this application I think they are simply running out of steam. Bridged 4780 is perhaps your best bet, but as you have already found out, "there's no replacement for displacement". Muscle amps are your friend - if you can't afford another Chord or four 😉 , diy KSA or big Aleph will be just as good.
Bratislav
The main problem with chip amps is their power (or lack of it!) and its SPIKE protection circuit which is very intrusive (and audible). My guess that is what you have heard when driving ATCs.
ATCs are renowned power eaters. Even with 'super' 75-150 mids in them, my friend's ATC 100 (now on permanent "loan" at my place as he moved to Taiwan 😀 ) take full blast from my DIY Krell KMA200 clones (reduced to KSA100 status by lowering bias, but with full gamut of 32 output transistors) and simply have that "is that best you could do?" unfazed feel to them. Bill W. recommended 150-1500W(!) for 100's and I can tell you he was not joking.
Bottom line - ATCs need power. Lots of it. Nothing wrong with 3875/3886's per se, but in this application I think they are simply running out of steam. Bridged 4780 is perhaps your best bet, but as you have already found out, "there's no replacement for displacement". Muscle amps are your friend - if you can't afford another Chord or four 😉 , diy KSA or big Aleph will be just as good.
Bratislav
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