The R3.2MMX doesn't use the same element as other true ribbons. Apparently six times stronger according to the marketting rubbish, how much that is true remains to be seen.
I'm pretty sure its not your average ribbon though.
The TAD's are excellent drivers, my limited experience with a single listening session was quite revelatory in terms of dynamics, transparency and their ability to create a real live performance. The Supravox 215GMF aren't particularly expensive in the grand scheme of things so I can try and then swap out as I see fit, pretty much what I did with the v2's actually.
There comes a point where you've listened to so many opinions that you end up more confused than enlightened. It would be interesting to see just how many people have actually heard or have experience with drivers they recommend. Its almost an art being able to read between the lines and relate experiences to my own preferences, the beauty of the internet forum eh 😉
I'm pretty sure its not your average ribbon though.
The TAD's are excellent drivers, my limited experience with a single listening session was quite revelatory in terms of dynamics, transparency and their ability to create a real live performance. The Supravox 215GMF aren't particularly expensive in the grand scheme of things so I can try and then swap out as I see fit, pretty much what I did with the v2's actually.
There comes a point where you've listened to so many opinions that you end up more confused than enlightened. It would be interesting to see just how many people have actually heard or have experience with drivers they recommend. Its almost an art being able to read between the lines and relate experiences to my own preferences, the beauty of the internet forum eh 😉
ShinOBIWAN said:
Definitly a problem there.
I personally have heard few of the drivers I've recomended. The best I* can do is make suggestions based on TS param's (and an impulse response with graphical derivations) that are similar to drivers I've heard (or own). Even then though, while some parameters may be similar, there are likely to be differences - and some of those differences might not be slight.
Then you can *grossly* compound that issue with crossovers and overall design, room effects, and other components. In this instance then, unless the person has personally heard the driver in a very similar circumstance (..and that probability is *exceedingly* low), chances are you still won't have an "accurate" representation of what it will be like for you.
Its a cr@p shoot. 😉
..and it is reason to be very wary, particularly when the drivers start costing substantial sums.
*The thing that I wonder about with a lot of recomendations are: Do others even go as "far" as I do with their analysis? Or is it a matter of "well it has lower THD, or CSD, so it must be better". Or perhaps worse, "well it costs more so it must be better". I mean.. I have only so much faith in my own recomendations (and I usually provide some cautionionary caveat) - how on earth can some people be so "certain" with their recomendations, particularly when this hobby is ultimatly so subjective?
The R3.2MMX doesn't use the same element as other true ribbons. Apparently six times stronger according to the marketting rubbish, how much that is true remains to be seen.
I don't think anyone disputes it's a quality 35 pound driver 😎
my main concern is this. Have you done any experiments where you
listened to tweeters crossoved over in the 800hz range? To me,
that is the first issue to address. I have tweeters that can be
crossoved over low, but I can't even tolerate a crossover point
under 1500hz, much less 500hz - 800hz.
I guess my brain is trained to accept midband frequencies to
come from coned drivers for the smoothest sound. Tweeters playing
midband just sound aweful to me unless I listen to the tweeter
at very low SPL levels.
The reason you want a R3.2 is because the low crossover point
ability, if not, then there is little reason to spend $3500 for a pair of
them. Second issue is SPL. You claimed that SPL is not high on the
priority list, therefore even a $80 true ribbon would meet your SPL
goal. If you do like tweeters crossed over low, then the R3.2 is your
best single driver choice.
I don't think anyone disputes it's a quality 35 pound driver 😎
my main concern is this. Have you done any experiments where you
listened to tweeters crossoved over in the 800hz range? To me,
that is the first issue to address. I have tweeters that can be
crossoved over low, but I can't even tolerate a crossover point
under 1500hz, much less 500hz - 800hz.
I guess my brain is trained to accept midband frequencies to
come from coned drivers for the smoothest sound. Tweeters playing
midband just sound aweful to me unless I listen to the tweeter
at very low SPL levels.
The reason you want a R3.2 is because the low crossover point
ability, if not, then there is little reason to spend $3500 for a pair of
them. Second issue is SPL. You claimed that SPL is not high on the
priority list, therefore even a $80 true ribbon would meet your SPL
goal. If you do like tweeters crossed over low, then the R3.2 is your
best single driver choice.
I only ever recommend drivers I have properly heard, which is why I keep going back to the old favorites,mostly Audax, Morel, and various pro drivers. 😉
pinkmouse said:
Its the safe bet for you, BUT unfortunetly there is no guarantee that what you like about those drivers will translate into what the reader will like or dislike about them.
The best recomendation here then is providing subjective evaluations for the differences between those drivers. Better still if the reader has actually heard one of those drivers you have compared (which will give some idea if the others will be liked or disliked for a particular application).
Agreed, but at least I can be fairly sure that the drivers I recommend do show a reasonable level of performance, and are not complete dogs. Taste, as always, is a factor that is in the perceptions of the listener. 😉
thylantyr said:
As you've already said Thy, you noticed improvements in imaging etc. from moving the XO point down, this makes perfect sense since a single driver is covering more of the frequency range again. Again its about compromises - you'll note that the very first suggestion I came up with for the v3 was using a Manger - drivers don't come any more fullrange that that particular one. My ideal was to move away from 3-way colourations and limit the variables by using a wide band driver. Weighing up the variables, constraints and my own preferences the R3.2MMX looks to be the only driver I'd consider upto the task of handling an 800hz-30Khz range with the greatest amount of realism.
I emailed Orca/Zalytron and received a whole raft of measurement data on the R3.2MMX. Pretty extraordinary results and in particular is the CSD, impulse, step response and distortion from 1Khz and up. You won't see that sort of perfection from domes or cones.
Scott also firmly hit the nail on the head when he said that I consider form just as important as function. Whether the speakers are playing or not I like them to be consider a center piece. Is that shallow? Certainly not because its something that makes the whole thing that bit more rewarding.
Finally, I've done a lot of playing around with the XO's on the v2's and I can very clearly hear the the image and tonal qualities shifting as you move between XO's optimised for different points - all these presets measure remarkably similar regarding phase and ampltude but the difference between each isn't subtle at all. This is colouration due to the sonic signature relating to the materials and the distortion characteristics of each as well as time deviations. I can also hear the 'weight' of each drivers mms contribution to these colourations. I want to homogenise these signatures so that they are at least consistant through a significant proportion of the frequency range and at the same time reduce those signatures to negligible levels through the use of a remarkably well measuring driver such as the R3.2MMX.
Imagine trying to to get a decent step or impulse response out of a line array - its impossible to all practical extents. There's simply too many individual sources which aren't acting as an ideal point source and therefor time based behaviour is compromised. I know your not a fan of measured performance but I place more emphasis on that part because I believe it leads to speakers that are a move in the direction.
Shin.. I've got another suggestion here.
My current favorite Hi Freq. Driver isn't the Raven 3.2 or the G1 - its the RAAL 140-15D. The problem with it though is that spl is reduced significantly (about -6/7 db) from 3 kHz down to 550 Hz.
HOWEVER.. it does NOT have a waveguide. A waveguide similar to the R 3.2's though slightly deeper would provide the necesary gain in this region and actually provide a more even off-axis response. It would of course also dramatically lower non-linear distortion for this region as well - providing similar THD results to those from 3 kHz up.
Additionally, the faceplate seems to be easily removed. (..and the vertical dispersion device is nothing but foam that can be removed.)
Take a look and see what you think:
http://www.raalribbon.com/download/raal_140-15d.pdf
(..sure costs a LOT less and looks VERY well made)
Note that Tenson purchased a pair - so you might have a few options there for assesment before even droping the cash.
Also, this isn't to put you off the Raven 3.2's - just to suggest another possiblity that might be better audibly and technically.
My current favorite Hi Freq. Driver isn't the Raven 3.2 or the G1 - its the RAAL 140-15D. The problem with it though is that spl is reduced significantly (about -6/7 db) from 3 kHz down to 550 Hz.
HOWEVER.. it does NOT have a waveguide. A waveguide similar to the R 3.2's though slightly deeper would provide the necesary gain in this region and actually provide a more even off-axis response. It would of course also dramatically lower non-linear distortion for this region as well - providing similar THD results to those from 3 kHz up.
Additionally, the faceplate seems to be easily removed. (..and the vertical dispersion device is nothing but foam that can be removed.)
Take a look and see what you think:
http://www.raalribbon.com/download/raal_140-15d.pdf
(..sure costs a LOT less and looks VERY well made)
Note that Tenson purchased a pair - so you might have a few options there for assesment before even droping the cash.
Also, this isn't to put you off the Raven 3.2's - just to suggest another possiblity that might be better audibly and technically.
Its been cleared in previous posts
There are suggestions and there are recommendations
I would think a suggestion is even more honest than a direct recommendation, even if one hasnt any experience with concerned driver .... it is only meant to inspire, and others may reflect on that
Everyone is free to deside what ever he wants
On the other hand I find it more questionable to directly recommend a certain driver
It very much depends on implementation, which can alter the outcome quite much ... and everyone has different exspectations and taste ... so, recommending a certain driver may actually not be that easy
In this case I think Shin should have enough experience to make his own desitions, and to know a bit of what to expect from various setups
There are suggestions and there are recommendations
I would think a suggestion is even more honest than a direct recommendation, even if one hasnt any experience with concerned driver .... it is only meant to inspire, and others may reflect on that
Everyone is free to deside what ever he wants
On the other hand I find it more questionable to directly recommend a certain driver
It very much depends on implementation, which can alter the outcome quite much ... and everyone has different exspectations and taste ... so, recommending a certain driver may actually not be that easy
In this case I think Shin should have enough experience to make his own desitions, and to know a bit of what to expect from various setups
Thanks for the head up Scott.
I was impressed with the measurements, especially regarding off axis performance but then I took a look at the distortion measurements, and more specifically the fact they were taken at 85dB/1m. The R2904 that I use now destroys the RAAL above 2.5Khz and the R3.2MMX is significantly better than the R2904.
I was impressed with the measurements, especially regarding off axis performance but then I took a look at the distortion measurements, and more specifically the fact they were taken at 85dB/1m. The R2904 that I use now destroys the RAAL above 2.5Khz and the R3.2MMX is significantly better than the R2904.
ScottG said:
Uncanny ! I just started typing the same suggestion.
One more thing - a trip from Germany to Serbia to hear it first hand is not that bad - and you may get even better price direct (instead ordering it all the way from Solen). Having a pair or three per side (line arrays anyone 😉 )should adress the efficiency if you really insist.
Distortion graphs do not tell the whole story, Shin. They do sound special - no question about that.
Bratislav
tinitus said:
I wasn't pointing the finger 🙂
I've recommended things I've never heard before. So count me as guilty too.
Which is pretty much what has happened.
It must seem like I've ignored all the advice and opinions but really its a method of self reinforcement of one's beliefs.
For me this one is about high efficiency, dynamics, realism and simplistic design through quality drivers. I was helped to that conclusion through dimissing idea's presented here.
Bratislav said:
They tell me more than the words 'sound special' though.
I'm with John K on the subjectivity vs. objectivity ie. If I can't hear it first hand then show me the measurements.
ShinOBIWAN said:
I've never been one to be particularly interested in THD (at anything but very low freq.s), but..
Good catch on the THD measurement (LOL) - I should have zoomed in on that portion of the pdf. .2% for 2nd order at 85 db might well be more than 1% at 97 db.
(Note that most true ribbons will have poor THD when compared to domes.)
Still, if Tenson's within driving distance you might want to hear it to see if THD has any significant audible relevance for you.
Again though, I don't think you'll go wrong with the R 3.2's if you decide on them. 😀
super special with a lot
... errrrr ....
Special. As in first time hearing ESL57s for example. Something is just "right" but you can't really point the finger at any single item.
Could be the ability to cover a lot more (from 600-700Hz up) than most other ribbons. Could be that distortion harmonic structure was "pleasant" (whatever that means). Could be that vertical dispersion was in fact a lot more like dome tweeter (which I prefer).
Whatever it is, they sound - well - right .
PS I haven't heard big Ravens, and normally I prefer "ordinary" tweeters (as in Seas/Focal/ScanSpeak etc) for all the reasons Sigfried outlined.
... errrrr ....
Special. As in first time hearing ESL57s for example. Something is just "right" but you can't really point the finger at any single item.
Could be the ability to cover a lot more (from 600-700Hz up) than most other ribbons. Could be that distortion harmonic structure was "pleasant" (whatever that means). Could be that vertical dispersion was in fact a lot more like dome tweeter (which I prefer).
Whatever it is, they sound - well - right .
PS I haven't heard big Ravens, and normally I prefer "ordinary" tweeters (as in Seas/Focal/ScanSpeak etc) for all the reasons Sigfried outlined.
I have a friend that used to like only smooth and clean domes
Untill he heard the Raven ribbon
Untill he heard the Raven ribbon
distortion graphs
Maybe you shouldn't be so obsessed with distortion graps, Shin. After all, unquestionably "special" ATC mid isn't really all that crash hot at 400-800Hz region, yet even largest ATC monitors run them solo from 380Hz up (and those boxes are rated as 120dB+ capability!).
So graphs and numbers are not always the full story.
Maybe you shouldn't be so obsessed with distortion graps, Shin. After all, unquestionably "special" ATC mid isn't really all that crash hot at 400-800Hz region, yet even largest ATC monitors run them solo from 380Hz up (and those boxes are rated as 120dB+ capability!).
So graphs and numbers are not always the full story.
Re: distortion graphs
I posted distortion data on the ATC mid a few pages ago. Very good from 500-3Khz.
Its funny you should mention the ATC implementation because I got into a debate with some ATC owners about how ATC's implementation wasn't the best use of the mid dome driver.
They use 4th order at 380hz where distortion is nearly 10% at 96dB/1m and also cross at 3.5Khz again with 4th order right where you've got a series of resonances at starting 4.5Khz. I use a very similar driver lineup to ATC's SCM50 loudspeaker and after trying what ATC do, I don't like it. Makes the mid sound harsh and forward.
Bratislav said:
I posted distortion data on the ATC mid a few pages ago. Very good from 500-3Khz.
Its funny you should mention the ATC implementation because I got into a debate with some ATC owners about how ATC's implementation wasn't the best use of the mid dome driver.
They use 4th order at 380hz where distortion is nearly 10% at 96dB/1m and also cross at 3.5Khz again with 4th order right where you've got a series of resonances at starting 4.5Khz. I use a very similar driver lineup to ATC's SCM50 loudspeaker and after trying what ATC do, I don't like it. Makes the mid sound harsh and forward.
Have you auditioned Martin Logan electrostatics ? Normal SPL level
and very good sound for store speakers. Maybe this type of
technology is what you seek ?
and very good sound for store speakers. Maybe this type of
technology is what you seek ?
very good ?
Very good at 500Hz ? Those must be different graphs from what I have seen for 75-150S. Anyway, don't you cross your Perceives at 400Hz ?
In any case, as you know, I have (friend's) ATC100 and when pushed hard, I think my ears distort a lot more than the speakers themselves
😀
Very good at 500Hz ? Those must be different graphs from what I have seen for 75-150S. Anyway, don't you cross your Perceives at 400Hz ?
In any case, as you know, I have (friend's) ATC100 and when pushed hard, I think my ears distort a lot more than the speakers themselves
😀
- Status
- Not open for further replies.