'Perceive v2.0' Construction Diary

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#1,601
The total array distortion is still reduced compared to a single driver at the same SPL.

🙂

On the other hand, if the impedance goes too low, the amplifier will have a more difficult time driving the load.

Use a good amplifier.

You can email me and we can talk about low vs. high impedance wiring, but I won't go into details in public domain. A magician never reveals
all the tricks :clown: :dead: :cannotbe:

I will say this ... Make a line array and do some experiments.
 
#1,602
If you're heading for .5 ohms, you're pretty much DIY amps anyway. A nominal load of 4 ohms is OK, but when you say .5 nominal you may end up with dips to .3 or less.

One funny thing about audio is that people never think outside the box
{pun, hee hee harr harr}

Hint. I can make a 1/2 ohm impedance line array work with
100w @ 8 ohm amplifier {not stable below 8 ohms} and get
maximum performance out of the array.

How do you do this? The answer is so simple, I'll let you folks
soak on this for a while. :devilr:
 
#1,604
thylantyr said:
If you're heading for .5 ohms, you're pretty much DIY amps anyway. A nominal load of 4 ohms is OK, but when you say .5 nominal you may end up with dips to .3 or less.

One funny thing about audio is that people never think outside the box
{pun, hee hee harr harr}

Hint. I can make a 1/2 ohm impedance line array work with
100w @ 8 ohm amplifier {not stable below 8 ohms} and get
maximum performance out of the array.

How do you do this? The answer is so simple, I'll let you folks
soak on this for a while. :devilr:
Click to expand...

Maybe a clever engineer will invent the inductor or transformer. What did I win?

Sheldon
 
#1,607
thylantyr said:
Won't beat a line array 😎
Click to expand...

Come on now Thy you ponted out generalisations are bad earlier on. I've looked at the line array idea and think its got lots of potential, I plan on trying out a budget array at some point to take a good look at the variables.

Each design has flaws as well as strengths but a sweeping statement such as line array are better? Better in what regards? Max SPL, distortion, imaging, soundstage and all the rest of the audiophile BS words? We're playing with a million and one variables here, including personal taste. I may not have heard nearly enough line arrays to come to anything quite as concrete as 'won't beat a line array' but I do know about compromises and that there's no such thing as a perfect system.

You have nothing to prove here, I agree that the linearrays would destroy that Raven/Supravox setup in some regards but the reverse is true also.

Low ribbon crossover point = SPL limited.
Click to expand...

The idea wasn't all about SPL though, more to do with tonal consistancy in the upper registers, imaging and soundstage. It was basically a decision in favour of sound quality over quantiy.

The Raven/Supravox setup will have a fair amount more output, dynamics and quality than the v2's. And that's just what I was looking for.

The flat 15hz thing keeps eluding me but the designs that would incorporate such huge bass into one cabinet are inheirently compromised from the size of speaker I was looking at. So that was another compromise. Look on the bright side though - I get to build another sub again at some point and that is always great fun! 😀

You aren't even getting close to 'high impact full range sound'.
Click to expand...

No doubt. But I've taken that into consideration.
 
#1,608
thylantyr said:


lol ..

There is another way.

Clue #2

You have a bunch of drivers that need power, how many ways
can you deliver the power to the drivers? Most people think
the only solution is to use one amplfier.

lol ..
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll play some more.

Of course you can use more than one amp, but then what's the point of wiring all the drivers in parallel for a 0.5 ohm array, unless this is a trick question.?

One amp per driver has already been mentioned here, hasn't it? Either way, a perfectly fine solution. Lotsa SS amps that can fit on a small board and put out 100 watts or close, especially at 4 ohms. A number of class D amps would fill the bill too. Single big power supply should be fine, as all the amps see the same signal anyway.


Hey this is DIY after all. If you want a single set of wires, gotta be many designs over on the SS forum that can be adapted for a gazillion output devices in parallel, esp. if the rail voltage is not too high.

Sheldon
 
#1,609
Thy's "record" is starting to "skip"..

It is a good record, but it isn't the only one by a long shot. 😉

btw..

I could easily see a bass (sub) array with a front baffle profile similar to the side profile of the latest loudspeaker rendering.

Bass drivers could either be on the front baffle or on the "inside" side of the cabienet (i.e. concave array). I kind of like the idea of the side-firing "inside" esthetic with the entire front baffle the same silver as the loudspeaker (..provide a "cleaner" look IMO).

EDIT:Hmm.. not dissimilar to the sides of this 😀 :

http://www.starshipmodeler.com/starwars/md_AdvancedTIE_03.jpg

Hmmm.. then you'll need an appropriate driver - Perhaps 6 of the Dayton Reference 10's?
 
#1,610
Each design has flaws as well as strengths but a sweeping statement such as line array are better? Better in what regards? Max SPL, distortion, imaging, soundstage

You made the TMW loudspeaker. Now you want to make a
WMTMW or MTM, etal. Not much of an upgrade vs. your
current TWM. Take a chance and build something a few
notches higher, get the biggest bang over your TMW design.

Upgrade your 4 cylinder 100HP automobile to the 8 cylinder
500HP automobile. 500 HP doesn't imply that vehicle performance
and comfort levels have to be compromised.

The idea wasn't all about SPL though, more to do with tonal consistancy in the upper registers, imaging and soundstage. It was basically a decision in favour of sound quality over quantiy.

Because it's a line array, doesn't mean sound quality is sacrificed.

The Raven/Supravox setup will have a fair amount more output, dynamics and quality than the v2's. And that's just what I was looking for.

Why settle for a fair amount of improvement when for the
same budget, you get get a substantial improvement. Unless I'm
wrong, but isn't a pair of Raven3 gonna cost $3500 ? With that
kind of money spent, I would expect a bigger increase in
performance than just a fair amount.

I honestly don't think a Raven3 will beat out your dome tweeter
and ATC dome midrange. All of a sudden you aren't giving your
Pervceive v2.0 much credit or you haven't fully exploited it's true potential because you have made comments on how something is
lacking.

I bet if you built the Raven3 design and you gave me your Perceives,
and we had a contests, I know I can extract more out of them
by something as simple as six bridged proamps. Your Perceives would open up alot and come alive.
 
#1,611
You aren't even getting close to 'high impact full range sound'.

---> "No doubt. But I've taken that into consideration."


Page 149, you said

"Yep, this time around I'm wanting higher efficiency and larger dynamic range, basically the kind of dynamic range that makes real life transients believable - the Percieves can't do that.

The only reason I'm sending you email and posting here is
because that criteria is something that ranks high in my book
and I've already been there and done that, hence I'm saving you
grief of the long discovery process.

But if you now changed your mind, then don't bother with the line
array project. Unless you get horns or make a line array,
you will never see the full potential of real life transients. Furthermore, you need the electronics also to make it possible.

Maybe we are on a different page of your goals. To make sure
that we are both talking about the same thing, answer this question.

Have you ever listened to a drummer play and you were standing
right next to him ? The high impact sound of hitting the drums,
cymbals, floor toms, etc. That sound you hear is what I consider
'high impact', very clean and undistorted. That is what I want from
my sound system. If this is too much for you, then no need to make
the exotic loudspeaker.
 
#1,612
thylantyr said:
Each design has flaws as well as strengths but a sweeping statement such as line array are better? Better in what regards? Max SPL, distortion, imaging, soundstage

You made the TMW loudspeaker. Now you want to make a
WMTMW or MTM, etal. Not much of an upgrade vs. your
current TWM. Take a chance and build something a few
notches higher, get the biggest bang over your TMW design.
....
Click to expand...

I think your own personal preferences are clouding the issue. You'd be on of the first if I suggested an MTM, WMT or whatever was the answer to the problem of balancing design issue's. Afterall providing you use drivers with magnitudes of quality and keep tweaking the design, the sky's the limit right? In reality no.

So I think you've missed the point, just as clearly as you see I've missed the point 😉

There's a system to fit every situation, if the highend was all about line arrays I'm sure we'd see more of them being used. As it stands they're just another alternative.

And yes the v2's are superb speakers that will shame many designs but there's always something better and a challenge to meet. Set goals, reach them and then use that experience to plan for the next. I also know that throwing more power doesn't suddenly take them to the next level.

One final thought: If I build an array who's to say I don't turn around and state that I hate the type of presentation then flog all the drivers on here?

A thousand what-if's yet no real answers.
 
#1,613
thylantyr said:
You aren't even getting close to 'high impact full range sound'.

---> "No doubt. But I've taken that into consideration."


Page 149, you said

"Yep, this time around I'm wanting higher efficiency and larger dynamic range, basically the kind of dynamic range that makes real life transients believable - the Percieves can't do that.

The only reason I'm sending you email and posting here is
because that criteria is something that ranks high in my book
and I've already been there and done that, hence I'm saving you
grief of the long discovery process.
Click to expand...

I know what your getting at Thy and I do appreciate all the input, I've already discussed a budget array to test the waters and I think this is a safe bet.

When I've finished up on these and then come back here with my thoughts stating that they didn't do what I needed then by all means rub it in. 🙂
 
#1,614
thylantyr said:
You aren't even getting close to 'high impact full range sound'.

---> "No doubt. But I've taken that into consideration."


Page 149, you said

"Yep, this time around I'm wanting higher efficiency and larger dynamic range, basically the kind of dynamic range that makes real life transients believable - the Percieves can't do that.

The only reason I'm sending you email and posting here is
because that criteria is something that ranks high in my book
and I've already been there and done that, hence I'm saving you
grief of the long discovery process.

But if you now changed your mind, then don't bother with the line
array project. Unless you get horns or make a line array,
you will never see the full potential of real life transients. Furthermore, you need the electronics also to make it possible.

Maybe we are on a different page of your goals. To make sure
that we are both talking about the same thing, answer this question.

Have you ever listened to a drummer play and you were standing
right next to him ? The high impact sound of hitting the drums,
cymbals, floor toms, etc. That sound you hear is what I consider
'high impact', very clean and undistorted. That is what I want from
my sound system. If this is too much for you, then no need to make
the exotic loudspeaker.

Click to expand...


Thy..

Remember - this *is* Shin's "journey", not yours - not mine. He never has had the same exact goals the you or I have - that should be fundamentally obvious (.."no two people" and all that).

All you can do is make recommendations. At some point you just need to let go, and let that person have their own discovery and hope that both the "journey" and the "destination" were enjoyable. There are any number of decisions that Shin has made that I would question, and sometimes have questioned - but the point here is not to belabor that questioning. Once, twice, maybe three times - is more than sufficient.

Also understand that he is *progressing* in his designs - there is a strong esthetic theme that dominates his work (..like any great artist). Moving to far from that, to quickly, is not really a progression, and such a "leap" is bound to be a bit beyond anyone's comfort zone. I have a sense that a Line Array tends to do just that - move to far away from the esthetic he has envisioned. *Then* complicate matters with greater expense and it is not at all surpising that he has returned to something more familar, yet still different (..and it *IS* different).

Now the expense issue is VERY real. At all times Shin has used very high quality drivers, most of them *VERY* expensive. Not once has he effectivly said, "lets go with the less expensive alternative". An alternative design that is less expensive? - yes. An alternative driver (though less expensive) because it offered an alternative? - yes. If you read the context of his multiple posts, you'll recognize that spending less on the driver's themselves isn't really an option for him. In otherwords - to do the line array like *he* would want would require W A Y more than 6K. (..and you can be that even that much has him "tilting".)
Note that I recognized this even as I wrote that long post on different line array options, understanding that there was little if any chance that he would choose either. Still, I made the suggestion - because that's what he wanted: a *suggestion*.
 
#1,615
ShinOBIWAN said:


😉

There's a system to fit every situation, if the highend was all about line arrays I'm sure we'd see more of them being used. As it stands they're just another alternative.
Click to expand...


There ya go!!! 🙂


Shin, I have a suggestion.
DIY ribbons in a dipole setup with your favorite mids and woofers?
No coloration at all from the "box" sound and you know you have plenty of processing to get the best out of dipoles 😉
 
#1,616
Remember - this *is* Shin's "journey", not yours - not mine.

True, but Shin is asking for suggestions during his travels,
I'm just telling him that a certain path leads to a dead end. It's ok,
he can take that road and find another path. lol

Also, seek the Elves to get some lembas bread as you might
get hungry on your quest and don't light any fires at night when you
camp, you might attract some evil demons.

:clown: :devilr: :clown:
 
#1,617
The Perceive should be able to get live dynamics playing most music if you just consider the total maximum SPL capability of the drivers, but it's the drivers themselves that have other transient modes that effect the end results such that the sound does not seem dynamic. It's really hard to explain unless you do a FEM analysis on cone flexture itself.
 
#1,618
I may be mistaken, but arent those Supravox not mostly popular by people that use "flea" power tubeamps
I think every time you estract some sensitivity, you make some compromise, mostly....lack of bass, resonanses etc.
Also from what I can read, the Raven should be exstremely fragile and not suited for lifelike levels, could be a very expencive experiment

I do think you might have a very nice setup, but maybe not with the goals you have set

Dipole line array do sound interesting .... there is something special about the sound box-free design ... if you have the space
 
#1,620
tinitus said:
I Also from what I can read, the Raven should be exstremely fragile and not suited for lifelike levels, could be a very expencive experiment
Click to expand...

I've no experience with the big Ravens, but I have had R1's and I once blew a rippon. Not a real problem, though, as the ribbons are easy to replace. Of course, continuous DC can cook any driver, but I think it would be awful hard to hurt anything other than the ribbon with a music signal or short burst. I would guess that the same applies to the bigger Raven.

Sheldon
 
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