'Perceive v2.0' Construction Diary

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jump to Latest
#1,461
ShinOBIWAN said:


Hell if you bet me I'll have something in the works before the year is out it'd will probably be a safe bet. ..Best thing is they've got some kickass driver and component shops in Germany and surrounding countries 🙂
Click to expand...

..say.. I've been thinking about this design that .......... 😀

Congratulations!

(..and those German shops will likely be your own personal crack-house. 😉 )
 
#1,463
In my haste to sell the Perceive 2's, which I've now decided I'll find a way to keep, I started drawing up plans for the v3 😀

I've been reading about the Manger bending wave transducer and it sounds pretty sweet. I've also spoken to an owner in the UK who uses them in open baffles and the results sounded like just the sound I'm into - strong imaging, realistic tonality and low colouration which all adds up to getting closer to a sound that can suspend disbelief. The Perceive v2's are good but they ain't pulled that trick yet, they can be pretty convincing at times and with the right recordings. I've never heard a speaker yet that does this though.

This time around its going to be capable of subsonic level at low distortion too. The kind of speaker that would never need a sub.

The Manger is a full, full range driver (80hz-35Khz) and has near perfect transient and time behaviour as well as low energy and a stupidly fast 13us rise time. I believe that when properly implemented it could offer a seminal performance and a real and definite step up and over the Perceive 2's.

Its tough to get a demo of Manger stuff so I'm likely to have to bite the bullet and just buy a pair.

Overkill Audio seem to have a successful implementation: http://www.overkillaudio.com/products.html

What I'm not sure about is where to cross and what to. A 2-way design would require a woofer that's good from 15-20hz all the way upto 500hz if I was crossing at say 200hz using steepish filters.
A 3-way would offer a little more flexibility in driver choice since you could use 12" subs to cover the lowest regions and something rather agile such as a pro audio driver between the sub and Manger.

A couple of concepts of the 2 and 3-way:

Pv3concept1.jpg


Pv3concept2.jpg


I'm only throwing idea's around at the moment and these certainly won't be getting started anytime soon but I guess I just fancy preparing something.
 
#1,465
Nice looking! I like the second one both esthetically and design-wise, however..

I could be wrong, but I don't think you'll be satisfied with the Manger.

Its incredibly low mass vs. its fairly low level of force make this driver a bit "boring" (i.e. dynamically stunted). Think of the difference between the seas midbass vs. the ATC - only more so.

Additionally, (and perhaps worse), its off-axis performance is really poor at higher freq.s.

There are however several positive attributes to the driver, but I think you'll have significant problems with those negative attributes (..could be wrong though). So in this case I would STRONGLY recomend hearing the driver b4 making a purchase.
 
#1,466
ScottG said:
Nice looking! I like the second one both esthetically and design-wise, however..

I could be wrong, but I don't think you'll be satisfied with the Manger.

Its incredibly low mass vs. its fairly low level of force make this driver a bit "boring" (i.e. dynamically stunted). Think of the difference between the seas midbass vs. the ATC - only more so.

Additionally, (and perhaps worse), its off-axis performance is really poor at higher freq.s.

There are however several positive attributes to the driver, but I think you'll have significant problems with those negative attributes (..could be wrong though). So in this case I would STRONGLY recomend hearing the driver b4 making a purchase.
Click to expand...

I've heard the same said a couple of times Scott.

When I asked around it appears the Daniella Manger has tweaked much of the driver from the late 90's and early 2000. The new driver is supposed to be more upbeat.

Unfortunately there's not much chance of demo with such an unusual and quite rare driver. I'm fishing for opinions over on a British forum where Overkill Audio had they're Manger enabled Finale speakers on demo at this years Heathrow Show.

I'm looking into Bass drivers and specifically the TAD driver TL-1602. I can't find any TS specs or data though which is hardly inspiring. I remember hearing a pair of TAD's a while ago now at a show, pretty mind blowing in terms of dynamics and transparency.

I'd love to go into some real top end horn/compression driver setup but they're too impractical for serious consideration, unless of course

Another thought was the 2x TAD 15's crossed to a Raven 3.2MMX at about 800hz, what are you thoughts on this combo?

I really want to avoid a three way this time. So consider this a 2-way only proposition for now.
 
#1,467
ShinOBIWAN said:


I've heard the same said a couple of times Scott.

When I asked around it appears the Daniella Manger has tweaked much of the driver from the late 90's and early 2000. The new driver is supposed to be more upbeat.

Unfortunately there's not much chance of demo with such an unusual and quite rare driver. I'm fishing for opinions over on a British forum where Overkill Audio had they're Manger enabled Finale speakers on demo at this years Heathrow Show.

I'm looking into Bass drivers and specifically the TAD driver TL-1602. I can't find any TS specs or data though which is hardly inspiring. I remember hearing a pair of TAD's a while ago now at a show, pretty mind blowing in terms of dynamics and transparency.

I'd love to go into some real top end horn/compression driver setup but they're too impractical for serious consideration, unless of course

Another thought was the 2x TAD 15's crossed to a Raven 3.2MMX at about 800hz, what are you thoughts on this combo?

I really want to avoid a three way this time. So consider this a 2-way only proposition for now.
Click to expand...


I just purused the "Manger" thread - and even eliminating my analysis (that seemed to ruffle a few feathers) - to me BY FAR the most "telling" post is by none other than Nelson Pass (who has listend to a LOT of drivers) stating this:

"I have returned the Mangers to their owners with thanks,
and so I don't anticipate much more action on that front.

I like the loudspeakers very much; they have a very neutral
character and measure better than any other full range driver
that I've run across. I can't help but imagine how great it would
be if they could be made more sensitive and dynamic at the same
time."

NONE of this though isn't to say you shouldn't purchase a Manger (..again just try and hear one if you can).

There is however one post I've seen that does merit potential with the Manger:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31681&highlight=

Jirka's wave-guide manger - that should make the directivity much more constant and help with several other issues the driver has (..like increased non-linear distortion at higher spls and lower in freq.)

........................................................................................................

As to the compression driver "route"..

There are several EXCELLENT drivers out there that don't cost an exhorbitant amount (like ALE and GOTO).

BMS has a dual concentric neo design that seems to be all the "rage" over at Bert's site (and member Brett has commented favorably on the ceramic version several times on our forum):

http://www.bd-design.nl/forum/forum.php

Look for anything entitled "Orphean"..

Another driver I would seriously consider is the top of the line Radian. These people make replacement diaphrams for the TAD line, and some users actually report an improvement over the beryllium original diaphram.

IMO though I have ALWAYS preferred a wider Horizontal dispersion design AND there are some EXCELLENT horns out their for this - the problem is that they are umm.. not small, ..at all. For instance there is a substantial difference between 60 degrees and 90 degrees, and also a substantial difference between 90 degrees and 110. Again, IMO the wider the better and it takes only a few seconds of listening to recognize if you have the same opinion.

Here is the maker:

http://www.ddshorns.com/catalog.php?page=products

notice the size of the 110 with the 2 inch coupler (used with either the Radian or the Dual BMS Pro):

http://www.ddshorns.com/catalog.php?page=CFD2110Pro

Here you would still need a super tweeter for that high freq. off-axis loss and Beyma makes a very good one (CP25).

But while we're on the subject of waveguides.. you might consider this:

1 BG Neo 8 (non PDR version) in a CD design similar (though smaller) to fcserei's waveguide:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6228&perpage=10&pagenumber=6

I'd bet that above 400 Hz that would be *very* similar yet better than the Manger with a wave guide.

................................................................................................

Now to the TAD midbass drivers and the Raven Ribbon..

Here you have the "opposite" disperersion problem - the Raven will be omni at crossover and the 15 inch driver will have limited disperson off-axis above 200 Hz or so. On the other hand THIS is better than the limited diserpersion at higher freq.s and omni at lower freq.s (..particularly because high freq. content contains a lot of informantion concerning image placement).

I used to have spec's on the TAD drivers - nothing terribly special there from what I remember. What was special was the use of Alinco for the magnet. Frankly for a bit more cash I'd go for the Supravox 16 inch field coil in a "heart beat" over the TAD's - same special sound but even better with and even lower fs. AND a lower mms. Additionally, take a look at the off-axis response of the driver (page 1 & 3) - it maintains its dispersion rather well up to about 700 Hz which is more suitable for the Raven.

http://www.supravox.fr/anglais/haut_parleurs/400_2000_EXC.htm

Here are a few Raven users going the "Ultra-Fi" route:

http://www.audio-consulting.ch/OurCustomers.htm

IMO then.. yes, this would almost definitly exceed the perfromance of the perceives on everthing but *pin-point* image focus. Amplifiers in particular would start becomming considerably easier to say "yeah" or "nay". Note that ALAIN has larger true ribbons AND you could always make your own. The best "threads" on doing so you'll find here in the ESL/Planar Loudspeaker forum. Then I'd have a custom made (exotic core) impeadance matching transformer made by Dave at IntactAudio for that ribbon.

..And there are multiple variations on a theme I can recomend here at several different price-points and even some that could be incorperated into the basic esthetic of your latest renderings.
 
#1,469
Manger has a love/hate relationship with people. For me,
it's SPL limited and there is no way I'd trade v2.0 for the
proposed v3.0 w/manger.

You might want to try to expliot the v2.0 more. What type of
power have driven them with?

Its incredibly low mass vs. its fairly low level of force make this driver a bit "boring" (i.e. dynamically stunted). -> 😎
 
#1,473
Another thought was the 2x TAD 15's crossed to a Raven 3.2MMX at about 800hz, what are you thoughts on this combo?

I really want to avoid a three way this time. So consider this a 2-way only proposition for now.

I have doubts that the Raven + 15" design will really beat
the P v2.0. It's obvious that you will get great bass from
TAD woofers and clean midrange, but I don't think
you will beat the ATC midrange by crossoing a ribbon tweeter
than far down *and* asking 15" woofers to play that far up.

You can probably make it work nice and 15" will give you
some meat in the sound, but from a stereo imaging point of view
I have doubts.

The question you need to ask yourself. "Do I like the sound
of tweeters crossed under the 1000hz range?"

You need to evaluate this in more detail before considering
that 2 way design. In my case, I like some SPL with my music and
when you ask a tweeter to operate that low, it never sounds
good. It only sounds good at low SPL levels. To me,
the Raven + 15" woofer can work well, but I don't think it's
a great design considering the cost. That design would
cost me $5100 US.

For $5100 US, I can think of other ideas that might be sweeter.
For one, you could build a quality line array that would beat the pants off that two way design. Line array distortion is very low
even cheap drivers can be made to sound amazing. If you do
clever wiring, you can extract more SPL too.

Fountek - NeoCd2.0M 5" Ribbon Tweeter - $126 [$2500]
That gives me $2500 to choose midwoofers. If you use a digital crossover, perhaps 8th order, you can take the ribbon as
far down as 1.5khz - 2khz which opens the doors for any midwoofer really. Your midwoofer budget will be about $125. Easy money. For maximum SQ, look into 4" - 6" sizes.

To extract maximum line array performance -> tell you later.
 
#1,474
I've heard a line array very similar to you what you described and it sounded marvelous. But as good as it sounded to my ears, I think Shin can still do better. I actually preferred the sound of a 3-way I heard to the line array.

I say build a new room first perfect for stereo listening. Then work from there.
 
#1,476
tf1216 said:
I've heard a line array very similar to you what you described and it sounded marvelous. But as good as it sounded to my ears, I think Shin can still do better. I actually preferred the sound of a 3-way I heard to the line array.
Click to expand...

Those claims you make are pointless. I might as well
say "I drove a car with a 6 cylinder engine and it didn't
drive as well a the 4 cylinder car".

To properly compare two loudspeakers you have to compare
two specific products. ie,

I drove a Ford XYZ car vs. Toyota ABC car. This is a proper
comparison.

Not all 3 way sound systems are alike.
Not all line arrays are alike.

If I went to the store and listened to a 3 way loudspeaker
and didn't like it, will I dismiss all 3 way designs? no.

If I listened to a line array design and loved it, will I assume that
all line arrays will sound this way? no.

The manger design, Raven 3 w/TAD design, are good ideas,
but you can get more performance across the board for
the same amount of coin. But, there is no reason why a person
can't try those designs, ideally you want to audition those unique
drivers before you buy otherwise it's gambling. If Shin has
gambling money, I would suggest with no hestitation to buy
samples of these drivers. Buy 1 manger, 1 Raven3, 1 TAD,
etc., and start experimenting. If the budget doesn't allow
this methodology, then you have to really sit down and analyze.
 
#1,477
alexcd said:
Do you even know where you're going to live Shin?

I doubt the Magico (or anything similiar) would fit a normal room.
Click to expand...


Maybe an outside venue? Imagine a big backyard with no
neighbors and you made a 'stage' for your speakers
with rolling garage door. Throw down a projector for
a backyard HT system. No room interactions, nice open
space for cool sound 😎

Maybe shin needs to move to Texas 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom