thylantyr,
My apologies, I did not mean to stir your juices. The line array I heard used the same Fountek ribbons you proposed and the 5" Dayton drivers. The maker also builds his line arrays using the Seas Excels and Vifa XT drivers. He remarked that they are similar in performance but with their subtle differences in sound.
If you disagree with me here, I do not fault you for that, but I still feel that the line array I heard was not quite as nice as the Seas Excel pair with a Aurum Cantus G2si with a 12" TC sounds 3-way I heard. Definitely, different animals, you are right. I just think that a 3-way design is capable of producing a better image than a line array and I believe Shin would really like strong imaging.
The line arrays were fun though and I did not get to hear them with a subwoofer.
My apologies, I did not mean to stir your juices. The line array I heard used the same Fountek ribbons you proposed and the 5" Dayton drivers. The maker also builds his line arrays using the Seas Excels and Vifa XT drivers. He remarked that they are similar in performance but with their subtle differences in sound.
If you disagree with me here, I do not fault you for that, but I still feel that the line array I heard was not quite as nice as the Seas Excel pair with a Aurum Cantus G2si with a 12" TC sounds 3-way I heard. Definitely, different animals, you are right. I just think that a 3-way design is capable of producing a better image than a line array and I believe Shin would really like strong imaging.
The line arrays were fun though and I did not get to hear them with a subwoofer.
Shin,
perhaps you should just enjoy the Perceives v2 for now, that's my most sincere opinion. 🙂
perhaps you should just enjoy the Perceives v2 for now, that's my most sincere opinion. 🙂
tf1216 said:
I believe the word you're looking for is pin-point imaging 😉
and i agree with you wholeheartedly.
sqlkev, that is not very american of you to say that! We always want bigger, better, and faster. If a better sounding speaker is possible I'm sure Shin will find it and built it.
My apologies, I did not mean to stir your juices.
Don't worry about me, it's hard to get me excited. I'm just bored
today and felt like throwing some bones in this thread. lol
I just think that a 3-way design is capable of producing a better image than a line array and I believe Shin would really like strong imaging.
I think it's a design issue and personal preference issue on
what gives a better image. What Shin needs to do is calibrate
himself by auditioning or experimenting to find out what he likes.
After I did line array experiments, they became my favorite
animal, but I also like other animals as they all bring something
to the party. Shin is responsible for determining what he likes, we
can only throw out ideas and he has to digest the data and form
his own conclusion.
I can tell you one thing I've noticed in commercial and DIY
line arrays. There is one simple variable that hinders maximum
performance and all the ones I've seen published isn't optimized
for full potential. My budget array takes advantage of said
variable and works better than not. 🙂
The second variable is the quality of tweeter. Line arrays require
certain types of tweeters and the market doesn't have enough
choices, so you are limited to certain brands or models.
The tweeter choice is critical if you want excellent imaging as
the tweeter needs to operate at a low crossover point.
If Shin wants to be the clever guy, build a line array
where each driver has it's own amplifier channel and make
a processor to adjust power tapering - to allow image optimizaton -
Shin,
perhaps you should just enjoy the Perceives v2 for now, that's my most sincere opinion.
/agree
I don't think Shin has fully exploited the power of the Percieve.
He needs six QSC PLX3402 amps in bridge mode and he'd
be super happy 😎 This unlocks the hidden
potential of the ATC drivers.
Don't worry about me, it's hard to get me excited. I'm just bored
today and felt like throwing some bones in this thread. lol
I just think that a 3-way design is capable of producing a better image than a line array and I believe Shin would really like strong imaging.
I think it's a design issue and personal preference issue on
what gives a better image. What Shin needs to do is calibrate
himself by auditioning or experimenting to find out what he likes.
After I did line array experiments, they became my favorite
animal, but I also like other animals as they all bring something
to the party. Shin is responsible for determining what he likes, we
can only throw out ideas and he has to digest the data and form
his own conclusion.
I can tell you one thing I've noticed in commercial and DIY
line arrays. There is one simple variable that hinders maximum
performance and all the ones I've seen published isn't optimized
for full potential. My budget array takes advantage of said
variable and works better than not. 🙂
The second variable is the quality of tweeter. Line arrays require
certain types of tweeters and the market doesn't have enough
choices, so you are limited to certain brands or models.
The tweeter choice is critical if you want excellent imaging as
the tweeter needs to operate at a low crossover point.
If Shin wants to be the clever guy, build a line array
where each driver has it's own amplifier channel and make
a processor to adjust power tapering - to allow image optimizaton -
Shin,
perhaps you should just enjoy the Perceives v2 for now, that's my most sincere opinion.
/agree
I don't think Shin has fully exploited the power of the Percieve.
He needs six QSC PLX3402 amps in bridge mode and he'd
be super happy
😎 This unlocks the hiddenpotential of the ATC drivers.
Yep, this time around I'm wanting higher efficiency and larger dynamic range, basically the kind of dynamic range that makes real life transients believable - the Percieves can't do that. I'm not looking for a side step move or a small move forward from the v2's otherwise what's the point?
I'd love some compression driver + horn action but it would have to be a really smoothed out compared to the PA junk I've heard which literally gouged my ears out. Looking into practical issues there's only a very small chance of me accomodating such designs.
For a real sh1t the bed setup, I can't imagine much that would touch a line array of ATC supers and G1 ribbons. Sadly my budget would pretty much limit that to a line around 1m long. Maybe do what Thy did any make this a long term proposal and collect drivers when funds allow.
I'd love some compression driver + horn action but it would have to be a really smoothed out compared to the PA junk I've heard which literally gouged my ears out. Looking into practical issues there's only a very small chance of me accomodating such designs.
For a real sh1t the bed setup, I can't imagine much that would touch a line array of ATC supers and G1 ribbons. Sadly my budget would pretty much limit that to a line around 1m long. Maybe do what Thy did any make this a long term proposal and collect drivers when funds allow.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Ah, you know you will try a horn someday. Here's a two way constant directivity concept:
http://www.gedlee.com/Summa.htm
Check out Tom Danley's latest stuff too: http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf
Sheldon
perhaps keep the Perceives v2 in the critical listening room and the v3 in another? 😀
BTW, the best system I heard was a diy horn system. Only drawback was the sweetspot (only about 6 inches
)
BTW, the best system I heard was a diy horn system. Only drawback was the sweetspot (only about 6 inches
)
I just read(again) the ATC SCM70ASL review over on UltimateAV/Stereophile:
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/5/index1.html
Somehow a Raven + TAD's don't seem like they'll offer that much over what I have already. Think I'll give that a miss.
I really fancy using the ATC supers again maybe a line array, maybe an WMTMW. Couple them to a high sensitive ribbon like an AC G1 and a pair of high effihigh efficiency
The ATC is the only pistonic driver I've that sounds like a top notch horn but without the hassle and space requirements. Others drivers measure better but that's irrelevant IMO and the biggie for me is that it has that magic all of its own. I thinks its clear to that I really like what I've got in the Perceives but basically want more of the same and also combine extend the response to create a true full range speaker.
Its a safe bet basically, the Raven, Manger and other exotic drivers are too much of gamble after a little thinking. If I dropped $4k on a pair of Ravens then came back and it turned out they weren't for me, well gutted would be putting it mildly.
Any further thoughts in light of this?
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/5/index1.html
Somehow a Raven + TAD's don't seem like they'll offer that much over what I have already. Think I'll give that a miss.
I really fancy using the ATC supers again maybe a line array, maybe an WMTMW. Couple them to a high sensitive ribbon like an AC G1 and a pair of high effihigh efficiency
The ATC is the only pistonic driver I've that sounds like a top notch horn but without the hassle and space requirements. Others drivers measure better but that's irrelevant IMO and the biggie for me is that it has that magic all of its own. I thinks its clear to that I really like what I've got in the Perceives but basically want more of the same and also combine extend the response to create a true full range speaker.
Its a safe bet basically, the Raven, Manger and other exotic drivers are too much of gamble after a little thinking. If I dropped $4k on a pair of Ravens then came back and it turned out they weren't for me, well gutted would be putting it mildly.
Any further thoughts in light of this?
I will add my two cents too .My system is something similar to Shin's design . I am pretty happy with it ,never heard better sounding midrange (at least in 3way system) , those PC xovers are so flexible , even after a year or so there is still a lot of things to tweek and get better results .
Attachments
Shin,... you never rest do you
I would bet on four 6.5" ScSp Revlater to each ATC dome
Maybe you really need double ATC dome, with maybe six Revelators in Dappolito, but I think its way too costly
One 8 or 9" simply dont have enough power
EDIT, you could order one of theese, to see if they are worth anything...they dont cost much .....I think others might want to know too
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/poly_6.5_page.html
Good luck!
I would bet on four 6.5" ScSp Revlater to each ATC dome
Maybe you really need double ATC dome, with maybe six Revelators in Dappolito, but I think its way too costly
One 8 or 9" simply dont have enough power
EDIT, you could order one of theese, to see if they are worth anything...they dont cost much .....I think others might want to know too
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/poly_6.5_page.html
Good luck!
Shin,
When you get to Germany you'll find two bi-monthly print magazines and an online magazine dedicated to speaker building as well as at least one annual show dedicated to DIY audio. Then there are the many small local shops that sell the products. Just be very wary of the prices for certain drivers, savy individuals can usually find them cheaper.
There is one project that might interest you at least from the design parameters and that's the Hobby Hifi (one of the publications I was referring to) Optimum. It measures -3dB from 45hz to 40Khz at 98dB (2.83 V /1m) and ruler flat from 60hz to 20hz.
I don't know when you get to Germany, probably not for a few months, but if you are here on the 10th - 12th of November there is a DIY audio convention in Gelsenkirchen where they'll be on display along with tons of other stuff from lots of different shops and importuers. Manger will also be there.
As a fellow ex pat (albeit from another country) I'll be happy to fill you in on any of the oddities of german culture, the adjustment can be more difficult then you might think. One tip in advance if you have SKY make sure and bring your receiver and card and continue your subscription. German TV sucks (no offence to any germans on the board it's not your fault)!!!
When you get to Germany you'll find two bi-monthly print magazines and an online magazine dedicated to speaker building as well as at least one annual show dedicated to DIY audio. Then there are the many small local shops that sell the products. Just be very wary of the prices for certain drivers, savy individuals can usually find them cheaper.
There is one project that might interest you at least from the design parameters and that's the Hobby Hifi (one of the publications I was referring to) Optimum. It measures -3dB from 45hz to 40Khz at 98dB (2.83 V /1m) and ruler flat from 60hz to 20hz.
I don't know when you get to Germany, probably not for a few months, but if you are here on the 10th - 12th of November there is a DIY audio convention in Gelsenkirchen where they'll be on display along with tons of other stuff from lots of different shops and importuers. Manger will also be there.
As a fellow ex pat (albeit from another country) I'll be happy to fill you in on any of the oddities of german culture, the adjustment can be more difficult then you might think. One tip in advance if you have SKY make sure and bring your receiver and card and continue your subscription. German TV sucks (no offence to any germans on the board it's not your fault)!!!
Yep, this time around I'm wanting higher efficiency and larger dynamic range, basically the kind of dynamic range that makes real life transients believable
We have something in common here, email me.
Sadly my budget would pretty much limit that to a line around 1m long.
I don't recommend partial line array designs. You will never
experience what a line array can do.
We have something in common here, email me.
Sadly my budget would pretty much limit that to a line around 1m long.
I don't recommend partial line array designs. You will never
experience what a line array can do.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Don't count out the Raven's (or other ribbons) and the TAD's - or preferably the Supravoxes (or at least a lower mass driver).
The thing that is really different here is the relative lack of acoustic/physical dampening. For instance I'd estimate that at *least* 1/3rd of the mms (minus the airload) of the ATC mid is relegated to dampening resonances via some form of coating. Most true ribbons however don't have this (and even the air-load itself acts more like an impeadance transformer rather than acting like normal physical dampening).
This character IS noticible - particularly with lower damping factor amplification. (..where the sound starts becomming more holographic and natural.)
In fact there ARE midranges that with the right amplification that would put the ATC's to shame despite the ATC's relativly low mass and extremely high force. Consider the Lowther DX55 - If you cut the upper passband resonance out of the picture on this driver (..say a steep low pass crossover between 1.5 and 2 kHz), it is astonishing. Even the "lowly" fostex 126e has this character. In some respects then BOTH of these drivers when properly loaded would outperform the ATC mid (obviously more so with the Lowther than the Fostex) - and still, neither would come close to a good true ribbon. Of course whats worse is that no one seems to be able to really identify via measurements this audible difference.
.(.and beyond the Raven's and DIY'ing your own - there are of course the G1's and the RAAL's, but neither will go as low.)
So in this case - WITH the correct amplification, there can be more "magic" than what the Perceives will supply.
...............................................................................
OK then, rather than generalizing - perhaps a suggestion based on the MTM general esthetic of your latest rendering..
HI Eff. relativly modest cost:
Tweeter: In place of the Manger the Aurum Cantus G1 with a very steep crossover around 1.4 kHz.
Midranges: 2 Supravox 165 GMF with side "venting" done for aperiodic resonance control and for cardoid directionality for the lower half of its passband. (..see Amphion for venting details)
Woofers: 2 BD-Designs BD15's with full cardoid venting, this time however venting is to the rear. (..see JohnK's site for details on U frame cardoid, however dampening should be more like GaryP's design rather than just using stuffing.)
With some eq. in the correct places and the proper amplification this would be nothing less than astonishing. (..and I'm pretty sure I'm not exagerating here.)
..and thats just one suggestion.
ShinOBIWAN said:
I think you need to push your Pv2.0 to it's performance limits,
I think something is fishy here. Don't run those speakers off
chipamps 🙂
From TMW to WMTMW is a neat upgrade, but is it enough?
I don't know if you will be satisified with that small incremental
upgrade and I don't think you will be satisified with the
esoteric drivers.
Why not go from TMW to the big line array ? Collecting drivers
takes time, but gives you time to enjoy your Pv2.0 for a least
a year or two while you plan the big system. Don't feel rushed,
just make a good decision. You should be collecting a big
power plant to power the system and you can use that
for your current speaker too.
Make the monster[tm]
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