thylantyr said:
It's Dutch, and the graphs denoting different cabinet materials. The setup consists of a loudspeaker with a front chamber. This chamber is closed by the panel under test. The mic is also placed in this chamber for making it possible to measure the resonances.
I'll give a translation for the figure numbers:
1. Measurement of the test setup without a subject under test.
2. Room measurement (noiselevel)
3. 10 mm particle board
4. 18 mm particle board
5. 18 mm MDF
6. 18 mm meranti ply
7. 18 mm birch ply
8. 18 mm MDF with reinforcement bars (40 cm spacing)
9. 18 mm birch ply with reinforcement bars (40 cm spacing)
10. Sandwich of 18 mm particle board + 18 mm birch ply
11. Sandwich of 18 mm particle board + 18 mm MDF
12. Sandwich of 18 mm particle board + foam + 18 mm birch ply
13. 18 mm MDF reinforced with a 20 mm layer of concrete
14. 18 mm MDF reinforced with a 20 mm layer of concrete with additional reinforcement bars (40 cm spacing)
I really dont like when sides are coupled to each other.... you know that little stick inside a violin that couples deck and bottom to each other, if you remove it there will be very little sound at all
Matrix performed correctly is the best there is.... I am told the structure should be made from rather thin wood (6-8mm) and glued with soft glue to achieve the best result .... holes and structure should vary, depending on driver size and frequency concerned
I see it like this....thin walls/wood you can dampen quite easily ....very thick, no chance .... it will ring like hell!
Matrix performed correctly is the best there is.... I am told the structure should be made from rather thin wood (6-8mm) and glued with soft glue to achieve the best result .... holes and structure should vary, depending on driver size and frequency concerned
I see it like this....thin walls/wood you can dampen quite easily ....very thick, no chance .... it will ring like hell!
Member
Joined 2002
ShinOBIWAN said:
I'd imagine it probably is too much trouble for your project, not for mine.
Overkill is when you get to the point that the baffle adds absolutely nothing to the sound and then you go ahead and make things even harder.
So what I'm doing isn't overkill
Its a crosssection of accelerometer tests used to map enclosure resaonces.
The materials vary from concrete, fibre glass, ply and MDF. There's also tests of composites of these materials as well as with and without bracing applied.
MDF with bracing is poor in comparison to composites with bracing.
Your cabinets and the cabinets I used for the v2 with 4" thick baffles are therefor shoddy.
So this means that bracing is kinda useless ?>
Its a crosssection of accelerometer tests used to map enclosure resaonces.
The materials vary from concrete, fibre glass, ply and MDF. There's also tests of composites of these materials as well as with and without bracing applied.
MDF with bracing is poor in comparison to composites with bracing.
Your cabinets and the cabinets I used for the v2 with 4" thick baffles are therefor shoddy.
Unless I missed it, I don't see proper bracing in the pics from
that test.
Another note, people make amplifiers with parts per billion distortion
numbers when we can't even hear it. Most people don't design
loudspeakers that are powerful enough to excite a good enclosure design into
audible gremlins. Think about it, what will a tweeter do after you install
it inside a plain box with no bracing? That box will have no coloration.
Add a woofer playing low frequency, the wavelengths are too long
to warrant esoteric cabinet construction other than good bracing
to prevent wall flex.
That leaves you will the midrange, the most important driver
that does need a quality box design, but a midrange by itself
hardly excites a properly made box. In other words, I can see
an array of drivers causing more harm than a single driver in
a box. I haven't heard anything bad from my line array cabinet,
nor has a few others folks in cyber who make line array cabinets
using 'thin' walls with excellent bracing. These design using
alot of drivers have the most potential to manifest issues, none
are audible, so why worry about a single or dual midrange driver
causing problems?
It's DIY, so it's ok to build whatever you want, but it's nice
to talk about these issues for sake of talking since there is
nothing else happening. LOL
The materials vary from concrete, fibre glass, ply and MDF. There's also tests of composites of these materials as well as with and without bracing applied.
MDF with bracing is poor in comparison to composites with bracing.
Your cabinets and the cabinets I used for the v2 with 4" thick baffles are therefor shoddy.
Unless I missed it, I don't see proper bracing in the pics from
that test.
Another note, people make amplifiers with parts per billion distortion
numbers when we can't even hear it. Most people don't design
loudspeakers that are powerful enough to excite a good enclosure design into
audible gremlins. Think about it, what will a tweeter do after you install
it inside a plain box with no bracing? That box will have no coloration.
Add a woofer playing low frequency, the wavelengths are too long
to warrant esoteric cabinet construction other than good bracing
to prevent wall flex.
That leaves you will the midrange, the most important driver
that does need a quality box design, but a midrange by itself
hardly excites a properly made box. In other words, I can see
an array of drivers causing more harm than a single driver in
a box. I haven't heard anything bad from my line array cabinet,
nor has a few others folks in cyber who make line array cabinets
using 'thin' walls with excellent bracing. These design using
alot of drivers have the most potential to manifest issues, none
are audible, so why worry about a single or dual midrange driver
causing problems?
It's DIY, so it's ok to build whatever you want, but it's nice
to talk about these issues for sake of talking since there is
nothing else happening. LOL
jleaman said:
People doing esoteric tests on speaker cabinets usually lack
good carpentry common sense and form silly conclusion.
Not every can build a house from scratch, not everyone
can build a speaker box from scratch, the ones that know
how to execute the build properly have no issues. It's the other
folks who say it doesn't work because they don't know how.
thylantyr said:
People doing esoteric tests on speaker cabinets usually lack
good carpentry common sense and form silly conclusion.
Not every can build a house from scratch, not everyone
can build a speaker box from scratch, the ones that know
how to execute the build properly have no issues. It's the other
folks who say it doesn't work because they don't know how.
Thy, your full of it today.
Sounds like there's only yourself that knows how to build a box on here.
Quit with your self righteous rubbish, its boring. My line array this, my way is the only way, my cabinets are perfect, don't need measurements etc. etc. I'd ask that unless you've actually got something consructive to say then you stop addressing points I full well know the answers to already, I've built plenty of cabinets to form conclusions and despite your own narrowmindedness in these matters there are better ways.
Live with it.
tinitus said:
I think you can try to make designing, building and evaluating a loudspeaker a more scientific process. But in the end we all just pick bits up try them out and if it works, good and if it doesn't we'll we move on. There's no manual on this although there are established methods and common sense.
There's no real way to success so as long as we feel content in the efforts we make rather than being so absolutely sure in our ignorance as to push our beliefs onto others, then we'll at least have something to agree upon.
The more I post on this forum the more friction I see. Its tough to have anything resembling a decent conversation with anyone but Scott these days. What happened to just talking about all this for the sake of it rather than an endless battle of pedantic nonsense, self beliefs and general arm chair designer attitudes? Kinda takes the fun out coming here, at least for me anyway.
I've always said, the trouble with speakers is that they work.
My grandmother will make one and, alas, it works! How will it work? Well, who is to say, me or her? It will be excellent for her, but rubbish for me. So what. What gives me the right to judge? ...I've heard a lot...I have listening experience...BS!!! I LIKE certain things in reproduced sound that makes it more believable for me! She LIKES different things, that makes it more believable to her, and now what? Add on top the "I made it myself" factor, and there you go...
Friction or artistic differences, it's all healthy. Without opposing each other, we wouldn't be able to see anything else but our face in the mirror. There is no better way to learn, than thinking different, but the only question is, can we overcome our ego and really acknowledge experience of others, as of the same weigth as our own. Probably not, because we all know that speaker making is more art than science, and there is no consensus in art. Nor it will ever be. There is nothing decent or undecent about it. Mind of an artist should not allow itself to accept any judgement...and that is very healthy for the art itself.
My grandmother will make one and, alas, it works! How will it work? Well, who is to say, me or her? It will be excellent for her, but rubbish for me. So what. What gives me the right to judge? ...I've heard a lot...I have listening experience...BS!!! I LIKE certain things in reproduced sound that makes it more believable for me! She LIKES different things, that makes it more believable to her, and now what? Add on top the "I made it myself" factor, and there you go...
Friction or artistic differences, it's all healthy. Without opposing each other, we wouldn't be able to see anything else but our face in the mirror. There is no better way to learn, than thinking different, but the only question is, can we overcome our ego and really acknowledge experience of others, as of the same weigth as our own. Probably not, because we all know that speaker making is more art than science, and there is no consensus in art. Nor it will ever be. There is nothing decent or undecent about it. Mind of an artist should not allow itself to accept any judgement...and that is very healthy for the art itself.
ShinOBIWAN said:
It often happens (with a majority of the populous) that the more a person becomes "engrossed" in a particular pursuit - that they become more polarized in their opinion. Of course the more a person becomes polarized the less they can tolerate an alternate opinion. At its worst, that person's opinion essentially becomes fact to them and any other opinion is at LEAST false (..though sometimes viewed as an outright lie because at that point the person has problems with paranoia on the subject).
ENTER the Forum Antidote: [cheesy ultrabright commercial trumpet sound with visual
]Don't let this get you down though, or kill your joy with the forum.
Simply block the offending poster's posts from your view (..even if its me ), ..for a least a short time. I think you'll find that after a few days (..took me about 4 days to "cool down"), with the block in place that you'll feel less stressed and enjoy the forum more. Exit: ["Fabulous" with visual
](...ok, so I didn't have a date tonight
)EDIT: To make this more "on-topic"..
..here is a visual with the aluminum "guilding" process:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/Freedom4All/muchmorefotos.html
While the descriptions and "science" are bit to much to take, there actually is a good reason to do this "generally": to reduce standing waves via boundry layers (..i.e. improve spectral decay). Also (presumably) most cones will obtain an increase in reactance to change because of the extremely low mass - low internal loss and high propagation velocity of aluminum (..Bereyllium, Diamond, and Corundum/Ceramic are exceptions). This should improve the driver's material "tonal" signiture. Note that you do need to do both sides of a cone for best effect.
Also note that you can get the finish much more uniform than even his best examples by "dry brushing" the seems after the glue has dried/evaporated. (..and don't use anywhere near as much glue as in his example.)
ShinOBIWAN said:
Ditto. It seems like all your "great ideas" are ones that you don't feel comfortable sharing in public. You may very well be the greatest mind on this forum, but no one would ever know it because of your snide comments and the intentionally vague descriptions you make of your ideas (which you end with "contact me privately"). Why not share your allegedly vast knowledge with us mere mortals?
Imagine yourself as a scientist trying to find a cure for HIV in
the past 20 years. This clever virus has punished everyone trying
to find a cure.
Lets say you retired and took up audio as a hobby, imagine
how easy audio can be by comparison, but some folks make it
hard on themsleves by assuming the difficult paths yields better
results as there is no guarantees.
There are a million recipes for cabinet construction, I can build
a fuctional speaker cabinet with balsa wood and hardener, paper
mache', fiberglass/resin, tree trunk and chisel, sawdust and glue,
steel and dampener, etc., but if you know how to work with
ordinary woods found at the lumber yard, you can get great results
with ease.
There is nothing wrong with esoteric designs as this is DIY and
making something different is part of the game. Some day I
want to carve a figure out of foam blocks, perhaps a monster
figure then fiberglass/resin the foam for structural integrity. Complex project, it would be fun, but I won't make claims on how much
better that recipe is for sound.
the past 20 years. This clever virus has punished everyone trying
to find a cure.
Lets say you retired and took up audio as a hobby, imagine
how easy audio can be by comparison, but some folks make it
hard on themsleves by assuming the difficult paths yields better
results as there is no guarantees.
There are a million recipes for cabinet construction, I can build
a fuctional speaker cabinet with balsa wood and hardener, paper
mache', fiberglass/resin, tree trunk and chisel, sawdust and glue,
steel and dampener, etc., but if you know how to work with
ordinary woods found at the lumber yard, you can get great results
with ease.
There is nothing wrong with esoteric designs as this is DIY and
making something different is part of the game. Some day I
want to carve a figure out of foam blocks, perhaps a monster
figure then fiberglass/resin the foam for structural integrity. Complex project, it would be fun, but I won't make claims on how much
better that recipe is for sound.
which you end with "contact me privately". Why not share your allegedly vast knowledge with us mere mortals?
Answers, not in any particular order;
1. I learn from my mistakes. As you see below, public domain
conversations might be counter productive vs. private chat.
I can focus more on said issue talking to the individuals in private
without getting sidetracked by everyone and topic of interest
turns into an off topic thread. Sorta like the board game -> ouija
where everyone places their hand on the pointer and it moves
all over the place. LOL
2. I make bold statements and I get lots of replies and debates
that last for days, sometimes weeks or months. I have an ongoing
debate elsewhere with an individual that can't believe that DIY
has the potential to beat store bought product. That debate has
been going on for two years now. LOL
3. Years ago while discussing esoteric loudspeaker design,
sharing information in public, later someone in cyber published
a 'proprietary' article on a specific speaker design using our
public domain information and making claims that he created this.
In other words, don't think badly of a Chef refusing to give you his
recipe for his famous chicken soup when you ask for it. He may
tells you a few things like, it has chicken breast, celery, noodles
and broth, vague answers if you are trying to clone the soup,
but enough information to get the point across.
4. People truely interested will make contact. It's a new experiment
that I've been trying in public domain in 2006. For instance, someone like you will make that same claim, then I just say
"send me email" and we will talk about it. Guess what? Very few
people email me. This tells me that these types of individuals are
more interested in the debate process taking the counter argument.
Maybe they are practicing to be politicians? LOL
The folks that do make contact, the discussion is more focused
and organized without getting sidetracked.
5. Even though it's difficult to offer no counter argument in public,
the best approach is just offer the counter argument in private to
respect the person who made the claim you are countering. I let the
original poster make the final decision. For example, on another
forum I send out private PM's all the time because there is so much
bad information spreading and I would have to debate for a week
on a simple topic and the OP gets confused because the thread
is just getting crazy with babble from everyone. It's just easier to
make the contact in private, spill your beans, let them digest the
data and move along.
Last - I see audio as having an easy path if someone is interested
in building something. It's my bad for thinking that everyone
should take the easy path, but people do like the difficult path.
It's natural for me to instantly respond and say "why are you doing it this way, just do this .. <easy path> " ... LOL ... bad habit ...
Answers, not in any particular order;
1. I learn from my mistakes.
As you see below, public domainconversations might be counter productive vs. private chat.
I can focus more on said issue talking to the individuals in private
without getting sidetracked by everyone and topic of interest
turns into an off topic thread. Sorta like the board game -> ouija
where everyone places their hand on the pointer and it moves
all over the place. LOL
2. I make bold statements and I get lots of replies and debates
that last for days, sometimes weeks or months. I have an ongoing
debate elsewhere with an individual that can't believe that DIY
has the potential to beat store bought product. That debate has
been going on for two years now. LOL
3. Years ago while discussing esoteric loudspeaker design,
sharing information in public, later someone in cyber published
a 'proprietary' article on a specific speaker design using our
public domain information and making claims that he created this.
In other words, don't think badly of a Chef refusing to give you his
recipe for his famous chicken soup when you ask for it. He may
tells you a few things like, it has chicken breast, celery, noodles
and broth, vague answers if you are trying to clone the soup,
but enough information to get the point across.
4. People truely interested will make contact. It's a new experiment
that I've been trying in public domain in 2006. For instance, someone like you will make that same claim, then I just say
"send me email" and we will talk about it. Guess what? Very few
people email me. This tells me that these types of individuals are
more interested in the debate process taking the counter argument.
Maybe they are practicing to be politicians? LOL
The folks that do make contact, the discussion is more focused
and organized without getting sidetracked.
5. Even though it's difficult to offer no counter argument in public,
the best approach is just offer the counter argument in private to
respect the person who made the claim you are countering. I let the
original poster make the final decision. For example, on another
forum I send out private PM's all the time because there is so much
bad information spreading and I would have to debate for a week
on a simple topic and the OP gets confused because the thread
is just getting crazy with babble from everyone. It's just easier to
make the contact in private, spill your beans, let them digest the
data and move along.
Last - I see audio as having an easy path if someone is interested
in building something. It's my bad for thinking that everyone
should take the easy path, but people do like the difficult path.
It's natural for me to instantly respond and say "why are you doing it this way, just do this .. <easy path> " ... LOL ... bad habit ...
thylantyr said:which you end with "contact me privately". Why not share your allegedly vast knowledge with us mere mortals?
Answers, not in any particular order;
1. I learn from my mistakes.
conversations might be counter productive vs. private chat.
I can focus more on said issue talking to the individuals in private
without getting sidetracked by everyone and topic of interest
turns into an off topic thread. Sorta like the board game -> ouija
where everyone places their hand on the pointer and it moves
all over the place. LOL
2. I make bold statements and I get lots of replies and debates
that last for days, sometimes weeks or months. I have an ongoing
debate elsewhere with an individual that can't believe that DIY
has the potential to beat store bought product. That debate has
been going on for two years now. LOL
3. Years ago while discussing esoteric loudspeaker design,
sharing information in public, later someone in cyber published
a 'proprietary' article on a specific speaker design using our
public domain information and making claims that he created this.
In other words, don't think badly of a Chef refusing to give you his
recipe for his famous chicken soup when you ask for it. He may
tells you a few things like, it has chicken breast, celery, noodles
and broth, vague answers if you are trying to clone the soup,
but enough information to get the point across.
4. People truely interested will make contact. It's a new experiment
that I've been trying in public domain in 2006. For instance, someone like you will make that same claim, then I just say
"send me email" and we will talk about it. Guess what? Very few
people email me. This tells me that these types of individuals are
more interested in the debate process taking the counter argument.
Maybe they are practicing to be politicians? LOL
The folks that do make contact, the discussion is more focused
and organized without getting sidetracked.
5. Even though it's difficult to offer no counter argument in public,
the best approach is just offer the counter argument in private to
respect the person who made the claim you are countering. I let the
original poster make the final decision. For example, on another
forum I send out private PM's all the time because there is so much
bad information spreading and I would have to debate for a week
on a simple topic and the OP gets confused because the thread
is just getting crazy with babble from everyone. It's just easier to
make the contact in private, spill your beans, let them digest the
data and move along.
Last - I see audio as having an easy path if someone is interested
in building something. It's my bad for thinking that everyone
should take the easy path, but people do like the difficult path.
It's natural for me to instantly respond and say "why are you doing it this way, just do this .. <easy path> " ... LOL ... bad habit ...
I couldn't have put it in better words. But I'm also beginning to realize the world is also more fun with people like you have mentioned in the forum. It would be very dull if I was talking only with someone like myself, but it would still be rewarding though.
Sounds like rubbish to me .....
Ofcourse everyone has a right to present his opinion, after all it is a public domain, and Shin has asked for inspiration, but there is no need to fill half the thread to do that
Its true, when you "have seen the light", you want others to know, but you cannot force your ideas on to people like that
Respect the thread, and you can say what ever you like, thats my opinion
Ofcourse everyone has a right to present his opinion, after all it is a public domain, and Shin has asked for inspiration, but there is no need to fill half the thread to do that
Its true, when you "have seen the light", you want others to know, but you cannot force your ideas on to people like that
Respect the thread, and you can say what ever you like, thats my opinion
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