I've spent much of this evening considering my options for the subs and I really do see benefits to the 8 x XLS10's
I know the Diamond D9 will be a special driver but for £800 each it seems like very diminising returns for a single 15" driver, afterall 4 x 10" drivers per side is roughly equivalent to nearly 2 x 15". I'd imagine SQ wise the D9 is a tour de force and better than the XLS.
I haven't built anything with the XLS10 but I've owned a commercial design from BK electronics called the XLS200. IMO it was good for the money but couldn't do HT to anything like the standard I'd like.
Still don't know which way to take it and because of the expense involved I'm making sure its the right choice.
I keep thinking about those diamond drivers but I've had very nice experiences with Volt drivers in the past too.
And folks say were limited here in the UK for sub choices? Who are you kidding!
I know the Diamond D9 will be a special driver but for £800 each it seems like very diminising returns for a single 15" driver, afterall 4 x 10" drivers per side is roughly equivalent to nearly 2 x 15". I'd imagine SQ wise the D9 is a tour de force and better than the XLS.
I haven't built anything with the XLS10 but I've owned a commercial design from BK electronics called the XLS200. IMO it was good for the money but couldn't do HT to anything like the standard I'd like.
Still don't know which way to take it and because of the expense involved I'm making sure its the right choice.
I keep thinking about those diamond drivers but I've had very nice experiences with Volt drivers in the past too.
And folks say were limited here in the UK for sub choices? Who are you kidding!
Dayton Reference series subwoofers are now available. I'd love to hear opinions, maybe these would be better than the XLS?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-460
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-460
Clone an Everest. /simple.
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofers/pre_finished/pinnacle_index.shtml
2ea Tumult 15" driver
4ea 18" Passive Radiators capable of 3" peak to peak excursion.
If this isn't enough, then double those numbers or triple them
until you have enough.
/brute force
Subs are easy, the hard part is making great sound from
80hz to 20khz
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofers/pre_finished/pinnacle_index.shtml
2ea Tumult 15" driver
4ea 18" Passive Radiators capable of 3" peak to peak excursion.
If this isn't enough, then double those numbers or triple them
until you have enough.
/brute force
Subs are easy, the hard part is making great sound from
80hz to 20khz
thylantyr said:Clone an Everest. /simple.
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofers/pre_finished/pinnacle_index.shtml
2ea Tumult 15" driver
4ea 18" Passive Radiators capable of 3" peak to peak excursion.
If this isn't enough, then double those numbers or triple them
until you have enough.
/brute force
Subs are easy, the hard part is making great sound from
80hz to 20khz
Like I said before, I've had experience with the RE XXX. A very competant driver at infrasonic levels and that's almost identical to tumult. But I've been there and done that and its not going to push the right buttons here.
I'd probably consider if I was only running it upto around 40hz.
To really lower distortion share the load over multiple 10 or 12's each with dedicated amplification, EQ into the mid teen's and have reserves for peaks of 105dB at 15hz. Its got to be excellent with both music and movies.
I'm a big believer that 'slow' bass isn't about cone size or mass as some would suggests but rather integration with the mains as well as room issues, which can be solved with EQ. I still fail to see any correlation with low distortion and musical bass. I've had subs which test with high H2 distortion and still remain pleasing.
When your talking about bass in the range of 10-30hz I do think that distortion plays the biggest part. You can't distinctly hear this range as much as you can feel it, start adding in distortion and the clean delivery becomes muddy - especially transients.
All the subs I've had exhibited this problem to a greater or lesser extent. The only ones I've heard that were incredibly clean were the pair of DD18's. Unfortunately at £3000 each that isn't an option.
Those Velo DD sure do have a nice servo feedback comparitor circuit. I don't think you'll get that sort of sound without it.
The best that I can do is use multiple low distortion drivers in an effort to reduce distortion. 8 x 10" have a radiating area equivalent to 4 x 15" and with 44mm p-p xmax thats a lot of displacement capability so hitting low distortion, low frequency and high peak SPL's is possible with little effort. The fact that the cost is less than 1/2 of what it would cost for 4 x tumults is a bonus.
Audiophilenoob said:
I'm following my gut and intuition after weighing up experience and goals against practical considerations.
An 18" could be good but multiple drivers would certainly beat it out in all the important area's.
What you would do is probably very different to what I'd do. What I'm really interested in is the pro's and con's of each method mentioned and discussed so far. I've got my head screwed on when it comes to most things audio but the voice of reason from others often helps you clarify what it is your looking even if its a conflicting view. I'm not afraid to experiment but whatever I choose it needs to be the right decision because failure here would be a costly mistake.
thylantyr said:
Money is definitely the issue.
£1000 or around $1800 is the what I'd like to spend on woofers alone.
I think its clear that it would cost me that for 2 x Tumults. I'm trying to get the best out of that budget and its not going to be the 2 x Tumults. I'm sure that I still wouldn't be happy from a music perspective with multiple tumults either.
Look what you did with those NSB 'dirt' drivers, just from using multiples of them!
Money is definitely the issue.
Dayton does seem to offer a good bang for buck, I'd look there.
The new RS woofers ain't dirt cheap at about $125 but in an
array would be cool. Matrix array, one box or do you
like two or more subwoofer towers to place in different locations ?
Look what you did with those NSB 'dirt' drivers, just from using multiples of them!
I was going to build a bass array of eight Dayton $20 woofers,
two cabinets, but I canceled the project because the ported
NSB's give me good midbass ... and that project isn't mine to
keep, the owner is poor, he can barely afford what I made now.
My favorite, buy the best stuff over time to build your battle
station. ie, buy two Tumults, add more later as time passes.
This is my strategy with my project, took years to accumulate
parts and I'm still collecting. Drawback is, no tunes.
I'd rather spend once and not have to rebuild over and over again
like most people do. The cost of many small projects adds up fast,
so I'd rather save and build the big system first, then later do small systems for laughs.
Dayton does seem to offer a good bang for buck, I'd look there.
The new RS woofers ain't dirt cheap at about $125 but in an
array would be cool. Matrix array, one box
or do youlike two or more subwoofer towers to place in different locations ?
Look what you did with those NSB 'dirt' drivers, just from using multiples of them!
I was going to build a bass array of eight Dayton $20 woofers,
two cabinets, but I canceled the project because the ported
NSB's give me good midbass ... and that project isn't mine to
keep, the owner is poor, he can barely afford what I made now.
My favorite, buy the best stuff over time to build your battle
station. ie, buy two Tumults, add more later as time passes.
This is my strategy with my project, took years to accumulate
parts and I'm still collecting. Drawback is, no tunes.
I'd rather spend once and not have to rebuild over and over again
like most people do. The cost of many small projects adds up fast,
so I'd rather save and build the big system first, then later do small systems for laughs.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-420
what about 6 of these
as far as output and SQ these would kill the 8 10 idea
efficent little ******s too
what about 6 of these
as far as output and SQ these would kill the 8 10 idea
efficent little ******s too
Audiophilenoob said:http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-420
what about 6 of these
as far as output and SQ these would kill the 8 10 idea
efficent little ******s too
I wouldn't be able to fit them in the room but I doubt it'd matter, just stick them outside the window!
I'm a little concerned you think that multiple drivers = SQ though. Are you talking about distortion or fundamental SQ?
m0tion said:
Amps
I'm not sure until I've made a decision on the subs. If I go with multiple drivers then each will probably have 200w 8ohm using Hitachi SK1058/SJ162 since I've got around 30 pairs of those lying around, actually I'd build some more ESP P101's since they are cracking amps.
I'll have 6 P101's spare soon enough too because I'll be recieving the Krell Clone boards shortly. I'm definitely going to be ordering a couple of AKSA 55's to evaluate also. The winner of that lot will be used in the mains and left overs could be bent to allsorts of other things such as the subs and the planned matching center.
If I decide on something like the Diamonds or similar then I'm going to really need more power than P101's can provide. I guess I could use the dual coil version and power each coil with a P101? More likely would be I'd turn to a high power module in the 1000w range.
Build the ESP amps and sell them, use the profit to buy
the monster amp.
Affordable power;
QSC RMX 5050 - $1500
QSC RMX 4050HD - $1000
Expensive power;
QSC Powerlight {PL6 or PL9}, a more evil design for
subwoofer amplification
Check auction sites.
What's your thoughts on 8 x 10" Excel W26's?
You want to pay $250 for a 10" ?
the monster amp.
Affordable power;
QSC RMX 5050 - $1500
QSC RMX 4050HD - $1000
Expensive power;
QSC Powerlight {PL6 or PL9}, a more evil design for
subwoofer amplification
Check auction sites.
What's your thoughts on 8 x 10" Excel W26's?
You want to pay $250 for a 10" ?
ShinOBIWAN said:
I wouldn't be able to fit them in the room but I doubt it'd matter, just stick them outside the window!
I'm a little concerned you think that multiple drivers = SQ though. Are you talking about distortion or fundamental SQ?
have you seen the BL graphs for those subs???
the Dumax reports are pretty nice.... unless you wanna go to XBL2 you won't see BL graphs like that
BTW 6 15's are only 96" long...
pretty DANG close to how long 8 10's would be... 88 inches or so...
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
Shin,
We're all throwing uber-expensive choices around, based on nothing other than brute-force ideas or costs.
We could all make plenty of suggestions because we'd like to see someone try out brand X model Y, something we've all been drooling over but couldn't afford to buy (or too chicken to try) for ourselves.
I could make an unconsidered suggestion too!
Bully 15
as measured and built by Monte Kay.
It's so high end you couldn't build 4 with 1 grand budget.
But do you need 4 x 15, or 8x 10 or 12"? IMHO, when you select your woofer I think you should work backwards with what you need, then go off and do some modellling to various woofers to make a shortlist of what may hit your target.
I'd consider SPL requirements from seated listening position, then work backwards to find out what you need for SPL at 1m. Then I'd consider what I want for Vb and Qtc, and if I wanted to use existing power amplifiers I'd consider the available power on tap. The best device for the REQUIRED application is by far the best way to approach this.
I guess part of the high end appeal is trying things others haven't used, and it irks me that sometime the motivation behind driver choices are not based on engineering or design decisions, but more on what we perceive to be the best.
Admittedly the 8 x Excel W26 is expensive, but is it really give high-end sub-bass reproduction? Just wait and suggestions will keep rolling in, but only you know what you need.
We're all throwing uber-expensive choices around, based on nothing other than brute-force ideas or costs.
We could all make plenty of suggestions because we'd like to see someone try out brand X model Y, something we've all been drooling over but couldn't afford to buy (or too chicken to try) for ourselves.
I could make an unconsidered suggestion too!
Bully 15
as measured and built by Monte Kay.
It's so high end you couldn't build 4 with 1 grand budget.
But do you need 4 x 15, or 8x 10 or 12"? IMHO, when you select your woofer I think you should work backwards with what you need, then go off and do some modellling to various woofers to make a shortlist of what may hit your target.
I'd consider SPL requirements from seated listening position, then work backwards to find out what you need for SPL at 1m. Then I'd consider what I want for Vb and Qtc, and if I wanted to use existing power amplifiers I'd consider the available power on tap. The best device for the REQUIRED application is by far the best way to approach this.
I guess part of the high end appeal is trying things others haven't used, and it irks me that sometime the motivation behind driver choices are not based on engineering or design decisions, but more on what we perceive to be the best.
Admittedly the 8 x Excel W26 is expensive, but is it really give high-end sub-bass reproduction? Just wait and suggestions will keep rolling in, but only you know what you need.
thylantyr said:Build the ESP amps and sell them, use the profit to buy
the monster amp.
Affordable power;
QSC RMX 5050 - $1500
QSC RMX 4050HD - $1000
Expensive power;
QSC Powerlight {PL6 or PL9}, a more evil design for
subwoofer amplification
Check auction sites.
Waste of money on the amplification.
I seriously doubt the QSC would offer an improvement over the P101. Take a look in the Krell Clone thread in Solid State. Still4given has tested the two out and actually prefered the P101 over the Krell.
I'm building my own Krell to sate my curiosity but we'll see. I think the AKSA will be the highlight though. Once the speakers are finished I'll be messing with the amplification.
The only time I'd agree with you here is IF I went with a stubborn ineffecient woofer in an ineffecient sealed box along with lots of EQ to bring up the bottom or what I'm saying is the tumult.
It depends how good it is. We think nothing of spending $400 on tweeters and $600 on midranges. Usually you have to speculate to accumulate.
BTW Your getting robbed on those W26's over in the states. With quantity pricing I can get 6 x for just over £900.
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