tktran said:
That's overkill... or at least killing your chamfer bit.
AFAIK the W22EX001 IS the lowest distortion driver between 150 and 1.5K Hz, and should make a excellent upper bass and low midrange driver in a 4 way or 3 way + subwoofers.
is this test done at full input RMS???
because that changes everything
also just because it's the lowest tested doesn't mean it's the lowest around 😉
😕
Audiophilenoob said:
Childish? Yes. Call me young at heart I guess.
Your more than welcome to post in any thread here but please keep the school playground banter out, lest it be met with similar retort.
Inteligent and constructive critism is most definitely welcomed though rather than this
"... why you didn't go with better drivers than the Seas"
"... if only they sound as good as they look"
94dB vs 96dB so yes your right it does own it by a small margin in 2.83v/1m terms. Your quite mistaken if you think that has anything remotely to do with sound quality though.
The ATC is easily the best mid range I've heard and with things like an underhung voice coil, 2.1T magnetic flux density, wave guide for controlled directivity in the upper range, no rear wave and virtually non existant moving mass its easy to see why.
I've never heard the PHL nor have you heard the ATC so I'm sure this argument isn't worth the time of day. I'd guess 95% of folks on here would take the ATC, its held in higher esteem than the PHL, they aren't cheap though at $600 each but that's good value when you take a listen because any other driver I've heard sounds coloured in comparison.
Here's a quote taken from the LSDG:
"The SM75-150S 3" midrange dome has achieved almost legendary status. Not cheap, but almost everyone who has ever heard one picks it as the ultimate in conventional dynamic midrange drivers"
I'd have to agree with that after actually listening to it 😉
Differences aside, cheers.
Audiophilenoob said:
Please show me lower then?
The Accutons are close in the 80hz - 400hz range I'm using them.
Besides there's more to the W22 than just low distortion figures.
ShinOBIWAN said:
sadly for you... there was one person I believe who's heard them both
also the comment about I hope they sound as good as the look... was genuine... I really do hope they sound that good .... cause they look fantastic
dome midranges don't really do it for me... and I've heard a few... (Accuton ceramic) etc
if the ATC is great... GREAT!! I'm happy for you.... however the same thing can be said for those who hear the PHL 1120... they always love it over drivers like the Seas, Focal 6.5", etc... and always seem to say it's the best thing they've ever experienced... talk to andre at E-speakers... and others
Also the PHL 1120 can reach levels of 116 db over it's entire response frequency... the ATC can not do that... no matter it's efficency
as far as everything's concerned I can EASILY afford to swap my incredibly hard to get PHL 1120's (I have the last 3 new ones in america right now... that are available anywhere) for the ATCs... but I highly doubt they'll be any gain...
as far as SQ is concerned the PHL is considered the top of the line by anyone who's heard it... and I can count these on a single hand that I know of... they are considered the most dynamic pure midrange available... even above the ATC by the single person I know that's heard both... and I WOULD have to agree with him after hearing mine...
How did we even get to talking about my favorite speaker... in your thread???
I am really happy though you went with such a nice midrange... it's a VERY VERY good driver... good to see someone go for a high efficency top of the line speaker for a change 😉
ShinOBIWAN said:
I don't do testing like that
but I would if I could....
I'm simply pointing out that a statement that they are the lowest isn't true when quite a few very high end speakers haven't been tested
anyway It's finally below 100 degrees here... so I need to be outside working on my speaker project so that it's finished by tuesday...
congrats on your design
Your noobness is showing through, since only idiots would make such a sweeping statement, its just like saying 'cones don't do it for me' - they're all different so why put them all in one basket?
The Accuton isn't anything like the ATC its actually an inverted dome with many design differences, but still. I also don't like the Vifa dome or Morel that I've heard - would much rather choose a good cone over them and I think most others would agree.
94dB eff. and 150w handling vs. 96dB eff. and 130w. Looks more like Royal Gala vs. Golden delicious rather than an apples and oranges difference.
ATC actually build studio monitors first and foremost, take a look at the SCM300:
http://www.atc.gb.net/scm_range/scm300aslpro.html
121db Max Continuous SPL @ 1 metre doesn't sound bad for a speaker with a single mid.
Besides at 116dB distortion figures aren't going to impressive. Who listens to levels over 100dB anyway? I'd bet its only the elderly who are already deaf and if you listen at those levels regularly you'll need speakers with 100db+ eff. to hear owt because you'll already be half deaf from the abuse you've given your ears already!
When you build your next system, give with the ATC's a try in a line array since you can easily afford them. I find it amusing when folks start to brag about the size of their wallet, perhaps to cover up other inadequacies?
Wait a minute... later in that very same post you state:
Which is it? A single person or quite a few people who've heard and prefered the PHL to the ATC? 😀
Either you've got Alzheimer’s or you're a liar.
Judging on past antics as the somewhat dishonest feandil, I'd suggest that your actually talking rubbish again.
TIP: You need a good memory to be a liar.
ShinOBIWAN said:
if you note I edited the message for accurancy... I only know of one person (Andre at e-speakers) who's heard both... and my memory is fuzzy if it was him or not... I suggest emailing him and asking as I think he is a retailer for both products... I know that his favorite pure midrange a year ago was the PHL 1120
You are correct but the dome midrange point was something from my limited experience I wanted to insert
you are too quick to defend... and don't listen
I can't afford the line array of them, nor would I want a line array of them... but I easily could have afforded them over the 1120s... price difference is minute when one talks about something as key as the midrange... and I did buy 4 1120s
I'm not going to state the the ATC is better than the PHL... or visa versa... and neither should you... they are designed for very similar purposes and very fantastic and dynamic audio reproduction
I would like to hear the ATC... and may buy one given the new light a few pages of reviews I've just read speaks of them
I'm curious though how you plan to match the massive efficency of the ATC to the Seas... surely you don't want to "limit" the dynamic nature of the ATC to better match the Seas
I really don't know why you want to pick a fight... maybe because you spent so much on drivers... I'm unsure... but I really don't want to get into it with you when they are so comparable to begin with
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
Come on guys let's take easy. Have a few beers or something.
I find it interesting that people take comments about their driver choices very personally, as if it's a attack on the person. I call it as I see it, because after all, this is a DIY Audio community
I don't like to add fuel to the fire, but here's the PHL 1120. It's not the be all and end all.
http://206.13.113.199/ncdiyaudio/mark/Testing/PHL1120/PHL1120.htm
Similarly here's the ATC SM75-150S- according to LDSG it's got a big jump in distortion below 2KHz.
http://ldsg.snippets.org/vendors/atc.php3
Let's be honest- who wants to know that their uber-expensive 3" mid-dome or 6" high sensivity midrange is only "reasonably well" in measurements?
I don't mean any offend anyone, but instead of being stubborn or fanatical about a particular brand or model of drivers, if we open our eyes and ears, there's a whole world of new possibilities out there. And isn't that half the fun of DIY audio?
I'm glad to say I'm a speaker slut- faithful to no particular brand or model. The best speaker is the one that redefines VALUE- the best-in-price class.
I find it interesting that people take comments about their driver choices very personally, as if it's a attack on the person. I call it as I see it, because after all, this is a DIY Audio community
I don't like to add fuel to the fire, but here's the PHL 1120. It's not the be all and end all.
http://206.13.113.199/ncdiyaudio/mark/Testing/PHL1120/PHL1120.htm
Similarly here's the ATC SM75-150S- according to LDSG it's got a big jump in distortion below 2KHz.
http://ldsg.snippets.org/vendors/atc.php3
Let's be honest- who wants to know that their uber-expensive 3" mid-dome or 6" high sensivity midrange is only "reasonably well" in measurements?
I don't mean any offend anyone, but instead of being stubborn or fanatical about a particular brand or model of drivers, if we open our eyes and ears, there's a whole world of new possibilities out there. And isn't that half the fun of DIY audio?
I'm glad to say I'm a speaker slut- faithful to no particular brand or model. The best speaker is the one that redefines VALUE- the best-in-price class.
tktran said:
those measurements are quite good and better than 1 watt measurements I've seen
also measurements aren't all that matters... as many people hate the Seas for midrange duty
I like to listen with my ears rather than on paper...
either way... the numbers that PHL did weren't medicore... they were quite good in fact considering the volume of the music it was tested at
I would like to see the Seas at 95 db vs the PHL at 95 db which is what I would consider I fair comparison as both drivers are at the same output level
from that test what should be noted is that the PHL is fantastic in distortion figures for midrange duty ... one of best period... it's not designed to be crossed lower than 400 hz... and the 800 hz distortion is incredibly low
this makes me very curious for ATC tests... I'm sure they're this good or better.... but damn those are some nice numbers to begin with
the distortion figures are only bested by the Seas... which makes you wonder what that seas would measure with real input... say 100 db on the PHL vs 100 db on the Seas 😉
I have heard both. I like both. They are excellent drivers for different applications. I would use either quite happily if I had the money to buy them.
Oh, to make it official-
Chill, guys.
Oh, to make it official-
Chill, guys.
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
pinkmouse said:I have heard both. I like both. They are excellent drivers for different applications. I would use either quite happily if I had the money to buy them.
Oh, to make it official-
Chill, guys.
🙂
from the horse's mouth
sort of off topic but I think both Shin and me are curious...
can you say a little about strengths and weaknesses of both??? I'm curious if I should go ahead and buy an ATC for testing
NO bickering over what you say... promise 😉
tktran said:
lol... I do appreciate that site though... it's bookmarked... interesting findings!
Audiophilenoob said:
I listen good, especially to the likes of Scott, Thorsten, Dave etc. These guys have forgot more than I'll ever know about speaker DIY.
Buy 4 x ATC's and you'll be looking at $2400 that's not far off twice what the PHL's run at.
Wish I could afford that because I'd like to hear them in d'appolito config along with a big ribbon such as the AC G1 and a couple of Supravox 15" on bass.
Active setup means this is very easy. I won't have to limit the ATC at all, the W22 will be brought upto the level of the ATC.
Again around 100dB is my headbanging day and since the W22 will only have to reach to around 80hz distortion will be good any how.
Its not a fight, an argument at the most and one that was actually provoked by your disregard for others work.
So why your surprised actually, conversely, baffles me. What did you expect me to say when you wrote your first entry in this thread?
ShinOBIWAN said:
I was CURIOUS why you didn't go with a lambda/TAD speaker for midbass... that's all
I REALLY hope that they sound as good as they look... REALLY! that was the point... cause they look great! I assume they'll sound great... but who knows till it's done right?
I could have afforded those midranges if that's what I wanted (meaning 4 ATC super's).... budget was $7000 for my system... because I came in at $4500 doesn't mean I "settled" for anything... this wasn't a discussion if I could afford it .... cause only I know if I could... either way this isn't the point is it?
I just happened to get great deals on some things.... discounts among other things
distortion on the Seas will obviously go up as you're pushing it rather hard at 100 db... but either way I'm sure it's acceptable!
you were using such great drivers that I simply asked why didn't you wanna go all the way and get the BEST... simple as that... if you're happy I'm happy
end of discussion... ok?
Well, first of all I have to make it clear that it wasn't a side by side comparison. I have heard the ATCs in many studios, not only in proprietary systems, but with other drivers. I have heard the PHLs twice, once in an experimental system for Turbosound, and once in some custom monitors built for Sony to demonstrate the OXF-R3 digital console.
The ATCs have a much better dispersion, with a way more even sound field, but the PHLs seem to go a little higher with a bit more definition, but only in the sweet spot. Horn loaded, they go really loud, really clearly. Both have excellent dynamics, no trace of lower mid slurring, and have a real sense of precision in their presentation. They are both truely superb drivers, in my top four mids, with the Audax PR170 ( that the PHL is based on), and the no longer available Audax 4" aerogels.
The ATCs have a much better dispersion, with a way more even sound field, but the PHLs seem to go a little higher with a bit more definition, but only in the sweet spot. Horn loaded, they go really loud, really clearly. Both have excellent dynamics, no trace of lower mid slurring, and have a real sense of precision in their presentation. They are both truely superb drivers, in my top four mids, with the Audax PR170 ( that the PHL is based on), and the no longer available Audax 4" aerogels.
pinkmouse said:
music to my ears...
good to hear some first hand listening.... also what I was expecting to a point
dispersion is obviously something to consider .... but not if your xover is low (<2.5khz)
people seem to love that audax also... isn't it basically identical to the 1060 or whatever the PHL midrange is???
thanks for that 🙂 perhaps Shin can understand now that I ask to learn 😉
Audiophilenoob said:
Was really in the market for Supravox but had to budget.
At the moment I just hope I finish them soon and that I can finally get back to listening to music rather than taking endless measurements and over analysing every little detail. I almost think I've forgotten how to listen and simply turn into a human RTA whenever music is playing - that's how much I've been tweaking and playing.
Nice when you can get a deal isn't it? Ask the guy who's just bought 4 x L22's from me 😀 😉
I paid £100 to switch the standard ATC's for the supers, can't hear ******all difference but they are more sensitive. I guess I switched them for the ego rather than any sort of noticable upgrade in sound.
I'm sure it will be, I'd be worried if I expect 25-30hz from it at decent SPL's though!
The best 8" for my needs and possibly available today, would have been the Supravox GMF 215, sadly I had a budget and needed to stick to it. Things had gotten out of hand and only when I totalled what I'd actually spent on this project including materials, drivers and the DIY electronics I realise that it was just over £3500.
Out of that I worked out that I'd spent over £800 alone for the paint and a budget compressor to spray it with.
The really scary thing is that I don't yet have a set of speakers that work! So I'm £3500 in without even considering the need for new bass drivers and subs. Its clear that I needed to call in a budget and stick to it now, no matter what ideal's I might have had at the start.
The W22 is good driver, not my first choice given an unlimited budget but it will work well with the stereo subs taking over low down. Afterall 80hz isn't much to ask of an 8" even at high SPL's.
With the amount of commitement I now have in this project its easy to see why I get upset when someone start bad mouthing all the hard work.
pinkmouse said:
Cheers Al, all sound pretty much like I'd imagine things - don't tell audiophilenoob I said that though 😉
I think a better way of rating drivers would simply be a 'Good enough to enjoy' sticker of endorsement 🙂
Anymore thoughs on the Krell Clone?
I've budgeted for some AKSA 55's and 100's for the bass and mid but I think I'll build up at least 2 of the Krell's and then just go ahead and order the a couple of the AKSA 100's for comparison.
That way I can do a comparison, the AKSA sounds like the ticket though and has a following almost as fanatically as the ATC set 😉
BTW: The Audax 4" mid, can you remember the model number? A mate has a few Audax drivers from the mid to late 90's that he's willing to part with.
tktran said:
Night! D
Audiophilenoob:
OK, lets forget this ever happened and get back to what we enjoy eh?
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