m0tion said:
Yep your using consumer Level -10dBV since you are unbalanced, +4dBu would be balanced, as long as you run the input at 0dB on the clip meter and adjust on the 6 channel digital volume control you'll largely get around the problem I mentioned. I did run balanced on the input, trying both analogue and AES/EBU digital, by the way but never tried unbalanced.
Next step up would be something like the Rane XO but its 2x the price of the DCX, it does have global volume control though, which can save you headaches.
The simple stuff would be the expensive stuff unfortunately, like the DEQX and TACT. These are as simple or as indepth as you are prepared to go to, both offer auto-setup but manual tweeking is available for even better results.
I would never use an internal sound card, why don't you go for a pro external firewire one ?
Toms hardware did a review of the Hercules 16/12 FW soundcard, it has 8 output channels with each DAC running with up to 24 bit / 96 kHz at 114 dB S/N ratio. It even has a built in mic preamp with phantom power (as neded by the Behringer mic ofetn used for room and speaker measurement)
http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer/20050210/index.html
I have not heard the hercules, but I have tested the terratec PHASE 24 FW (only 2 or 4 channels) with excelent results.
Toms hardware did a review of the Hercules 16/12 FW soundcard, it has 8 output channels with each DAC running with up to 24 bit / 96 kHz at 114 dB S/N ratio. It even has a built in mic preamp with phantom power (as neded by the Behringer mic ofetn used for room and speaker measurement)
http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer/20050210/index.html
I have not heard the hercules, but I have tested the terratec PHASE 24 FW (only 2 or 4 channels) with excelent results.
ShinOBIWAN said:
I'm confused by this statement because of my own ignorance. I'm going to tell you what I think you're saying and please tell me if I'm correct.
Consumer equipment outputs lower line-level voltages that "pro" equipment, so my input into the DCX would be -14dB(Volts?) from what it would normally be. As long as I adjust my input to be 0dB, giving it a +14dB gain (how would I do this?), then adjust the 6-channel digital volume control (which I'm guessing is part of the DCX? Like I said, I'm trying to avoid the whole extra 6-channel volume control deal) then I should be fine.
I could be way off, please let me know.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Well, what I would like to do is DRC on all 7.1 channels along with parametric eq stuff on the sub (similar to the BFD stuff) and run the 3 front channels as 3 way active speakers. So I would need 8 inputs and 14 outputs. Might be asking a little too much for a pc solution. I am probably holding myself back by letting my pre/pro do the decoding and then passing that to the pc for crossover/drc duties. Would this extra conversion hurt sound quality that much? My pre/pro does have a digital out that I might be able to use, but I haven't messed with it much.
I currently use a linux HTPC running mythtv for most of my audio/video but still occcasionally break out my hi-def upsampling dvd player. I guess most people use a pc with digital out as the only source going to the crossover/drc pc? And you handle volume control with pc software/mixer? I don't use the dvd player THAT much, so I guess I could take it out of the equation. How would you approach my situation?
m0tion said:
Ah, sorry thought you'd actually got the DCX and had done a little messing.
For now don't worry about consumer and pro line level's. As you correctly stated your consumer audio source, be it cd/DVD or what ever, outputs a lower line volatge and hence lower level.
The DCX actually expects pro levels, but as long as you use get your input clip meter on the DCX front panel to stay around and under 0dB you maximise the DA headroom and lower the noise floor.
The DCX unfortunately has no global volume control on the outputs so your stuck with what you have as your input level - if its at 0dB that means very loud! So you've got to look at adding this feature yourself if you want to get the best from what you've bought.
Its all because the DCX is pro-level equipment and consistant loud volume is assumed. Whereas in the home we like to adjust it to what's best for how we or the neighbours feel.
ogp said:
Really I can only guide you down the same path I took with perfect certainty. Anything else would be guesswork as every card is different, especially with regards to expansions, capabilities and drivers.
Sorry,
cph2000 said:
Why not use an internal soundcard???
I'm guessing your going to say that the PC is too noisy elelectrically?
You'll find pro sound cards, have measures against this. Like isolating transformers, RC filters decoupling caps etc. You should always buy a decent PSU as well rather than the ones that come with £20 cases 🙂
You'll find that modern motherboards with their regulated power FET's and decent PSU's such as Enermax, Vantec, Zalman etc are actually a very stable volatage source.
Were also talking about mesters soundcards here and not the Audigy 2 type fodder 😀
If I was to use an internal sound card, I would probably make it external 🙂 by using a PCI extender and by taking power for the card from its own external PSU. The most important thing is probably the external PSU.
But then agian why not use an external card in the first place, the terratec PHASE 24 FW can be had for 200 euro, the hecules for something like 400.
Acoustic-reality is comming out with a hifi USB based interface with remote and all (the ear master), that could be a fairly priced product that would be somewhat easy to use (no external 6 channel pre-amp would be requered)
http://www.acoustic-reality.com/
But then agian why not use an external card in the first place, the terratec PHASE 24 FW can be had for 200 euro, the hecules for something like 400.
Acoustic-reality is comming out with a hifi USB based interface with remote and all (the ear master), that could be a fairly priced product that would be somewhat easy to use (no external 6 channel pre-amp would be requered)
http://www.acoustic-reality.com/
cph2000 said:
No thanks, those cards don't do anything like what's needed for this application.
By the wording in your post I don't think you've read what's going on here, Perhaps you should go back and read what we are doing here. You'll then see that the cards you've mentioned just don't cut it.
Thanks anyway though.
You are right I forgot about the digital routing that is needed for your aplication, I guess that is what you are refering to ?
I never really understood the exact nature of this feature, and what it is redered to in the various card/driver specs.
I never really understood the exact nature of this feature, and what it is redered to in the various card/driver specs.
cph2000 said:
They aren't expandable either, 2 channels of the terratec PHASE 24 FW would just get both my tweeters running in stereo 😀
No Adat, Wordclock, balanced outputs, multicard support etc.
Actually the hercules has 8 analog balanced channels plus 4 digital (12 channels in all).
The teratec has 4 balanced plus one digital.
External clock soursing is at least supported in the terratec.
The teratec has 4 balanced plus one digital.
External clock soursing is at least supported in the terratec.
For 5.1 I need 10 channels. When I move my rears over to 2 way active that increases to 12 and the 3-way center would take it to 14. Stereo subs would need 15.
You see where I'm heading on this?
I'd also need the same number of playback channels for internal routing to loop them back to inputs. Just not possible on those cards you spec'd.
The fact they don't have internal routing means that they are pretty much useless in this case.
Arguments for and again external vs. internal are completely non existant as far as I'm concerned, to add reasurrance and proof just take a look inside any digital recording studio, you'll find an assortment of internal cards like Lynx, RME, Creameware et al.
Sound on Sound has a number of studio features listing kit in major installations. You'll find internal cards in virtually all the digital based ones 🙂
You see where I'm heading on this?
I'd also need the same number of playback channels for internal routing to loop them back to inputs. Just not possible on those cards you spec'd.
The fact they don't have internal routing means that they are pretty much useless in this case.
Arguments for and again external vs. internal are completely non existant as far as I'm concerned, to add reasurrance and proof just take a look inside any digital recording studio, you'll find an assortment of internal cards like Lynx, RME, Creameware et al.
Sound on Sound has a number of studio features listing kit in major installations. You'll find internal cards in virtually all the digital based ones 🙂
For anyone interested, I'm selling the 4 x Seas L22-RNX4/P Drivers and the cabinets included:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=684159#post684159
Going with a different mid/bass driver, so if anyone wants some subs or maybe a mid/bass cabinet these will do the job without messing around cutting MDF 🙂
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=684159#post684159
Going with a different mid/bass driver, so if anyone wants some subs or maybe a mid/bass cabinet these will do the job without messing around cutting MDF 🙂
Shin ,
what are you going to use as bass/mid bass ?
I have same dilema . Other drivers are ATC like yours and Hiquphon OW II tweeter . I am thinking about Lambda 12' or 15' . Also Volt RV3143 is good candidate too.
Another question - are you using Theatertec with surround sound decoder plugin ?
what are you going to use as bass/mid bass ?
I have same dilema . Other drivers are ATC like yours and Hiquphon OW II tweeter . I am thinking about Lambda 12' or 15' . Also Volt RV3143 is good candidate too.
Another question - are you using Theatertec with surround sound decoder plugin ?
Hi again Vil,
Yes, I use theatertek with the internal decoding.
I've decded to go with an Audio technology Flex unit delivery is going to be a few weeks though since I had specified my driver parameters. Hoping they can get them to me a little sooner though.
Yes, I use theatertek with the internal decoding.
I've decded to go with an Audio technology Flex unit delivery is going to be a few weeks though since I had specified my driver parameters. Hoping they can get them to me a little sooner though.
Vil: Thanks for looking into the Foo_divider program. I realize that a non-commercial program written by some guy has some bugs and might need some workarounds. I do not use the Foo_divider program since it only works with Foobar. If you took my posts as criticism of your setup, that was not my intention, I was actually the first person in this thread to suggest using the Waves plugin as a crossover.
I brought Foo_divider and Waves up because at that point of the thread, the only FIR crossovers being mentioned at that time were Kxproject, ACXO, and $3000 DEQX and TACT systems. I mentioned Foo_divider as a counterpoint, because it is free, and it has lower latency than Waves. It was meant as an educational device before spending real money on a hardware or software FIR.
ShinObiwan, it looks like you have the never ending loudspeaker project. You rebuilt one HF box, and are replacing both LF units. What was wrong with the 4 Seas L22s? Are you going to turn this into a dipole project?
I hope we get to see some measurements of the speaker with the old L22s.
I brought Foo_divider and Waves up because at that point of the thread, the only FIR crossovers being mentioned at that time were Kxproject, ACXO, and $3000 DEQX and TACT systems. I mentioned Foo_divider as a counterpoint, because it is free, and it has lower latency than Waves. It was meant as an educational device before spending real money on a hardware or software FIR.
ShinObiwan, it looks like you have the never ending loudspeaker project. You rebuilt one HF box, and are replacing both LF units. What was wrong with the 4 Seas L22s? Are you going to turn this into a dipole project?
I hope we get to see some measurements of the speaker with the old L22s.
Tell me about it, never ending cash pit too.
I'm like a schizoprhrenic when it comes to loudspeakers. Can't keep my nose clean.
Complete redo on the horizon, my aim is to refine the design both aesthetically and with my only gripe regarding the sound - the bass and namely the Seas drivers, these are the weak link in an otherwise fantastic chain. Never was happy with them compared to mid and treble, despite many crossover slopes, points, levels and phase adjustments. I actually had both text book graphs but I guess competently good isn't what I'm after. Great drivers though for a mid/budget priced 3-way. So they both go in favour of better drivers.
Will also soon have the 6 x KSA50 Krell Clones here, so the P101's will be retired for the short term until I either sell or find another use for them. Again I have no complaints with the P101's at all, fantastic amps and I can't wait to see what improvements the Krell's provide.
Certainly keeping the ATC and SS ring, I'd almost certainly have a sideways or downward 'upgrade' if I changed those not to mention buyers remorse.
I really couldn't see any sensible way to top those at this time, without going into daft money and/or a complete design philisophy change. As far as electrodynamic drivers go, they're the best I've heard yet.
I'll be definitely sticking with the PC based XO - a country mile ahead of the analogue active XO's I built, so no complaints here.
Finally here's a few CAD designs of the likely look of the refined version:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Colours aren't representative 😉 Going with the black/purple/green flip finish again since I have plenty left over from the last sprayfest.
This time its more angles, sleeker looking and the bass baffle set to slope in line with mid and treble plus help minimise floor reflections. Also scrapped the idea of 2 x 8" and am going with a single 10" driver with a huge sub but that's another story.
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