>Run the big computer with noisy fans in a separate room via a LAN, and control the VSTs using a computer with no fan, say something with mini-itx form factor.
you will have jitter isues here (almost for sure ). I had .
I am using LAN cable but not LAN protocol to transmit data !
I am just using balanced pairs of LAN cat6 cable for I2S data transmitting with LVDS , because thats good solution for transfer up to ~500mhz with small jitter .
for DAC /ADC s/pdif aes/ebu or adat works really bad here (my personal experence of 10 years )
>probably, if you do eq before crossover. Of couse, you can do eq after crossover, and every channel will have its own eq, but you will use up a lot more processing cycles.
yes , for sure , its just ONE way to go .probably all of us are doing same way .
you will have jitter isues here (almost for sure ). I had .
I am using LAN cable but not LAN protocol to transmit data !
I am just using balanced pairs of LAN cat6 cable for I2S data transmitting with LVDS , because thats good solution for transfer up to ~500mhz with small jitter .
for DAC /ADC s/pdif aes/ebu or adat works really bad here (my personal experence of 10 years )
>probably, if you do eq before crossover. Of couse, you can do eq after crossover, and every channel will have its own eq, but you will use up a lot more processing cycles.
yes , for sure , its just ONE way to go .probably all of us are doing same way .
Could someone please explain what a "multiclient" sound card is and why it's important for this application. Also, what does having "internal routing" mean exactly and why is it important for this application?
Vil:
Whats your take on the M-Audio Delta 1010LT? Also, could you give an example of a "low jitter master clock generator", how it is integrated into your system, and why it is important?
It seems like all the sound cards you guys are mentioning are well outside of my price range, but the 1010LT just barely makes the cut. If it's usable for this application I'd really like to be able to look into it.
Vil:
Whats your take on the M-Audio Delta 1010LT? Also, could you give an example of a "low jitter master clock generator", how it is integrated into your system, and why it is important?
It seems like all the sound cards you guys are mentioning are well outside of my price range, but the 1010LT just barely makes the cut. If it's usable for this application I'd really like to be able to look into it.
Vil said:
That sure doesn't look like a fast thing to do... But really looks like a good one. I think I will get myself such a card as well 🙂
Would you mind sharing with us where you take your I2S from and how you transmit it? Would it be possible to transmit it over a 4-5 meters cable or only over shorter? CAT6 sounds like a nice solution, is it better than good quality coax?
>>>That sure doesn't look like a fast thing to do... But really looks like a good one. I think I will get myself such a card as well
Would you mind sharing with us where you take your I2S from and how you transmit it? Would it be possible to transmit it over a 4-5 meters cable or only over shorter? CAT6 sounds like a nice solution, is it better than good quality coax?
well I say fast because I made that pcb in few evenings , not thinking a lot about aesthetical isues . I even don't have any schematics or so , just used data pdf files from National .
look to LVDS family at National .
I tested it with ~15 meters cat 5 cable without any problems so with cat 6 it should work to 20 or more meters .
good quality coax can be solution too , but you will need 5 or 6 cables and much more complicated schematic to send and receive signal with good quality (low jitter) .
Would you mind sharing with us where you take your I2S from and how you transmit it? Would it be possible to transmit it over a 4-5 meters cable or only over shorter? CAT6 sounds like a nice solution, is it better than good quality coax?
well I say fast because I made that pcb in few evenings , not thinking a lot about aesthetical isues . I even don't have any schematics or so , just used data pdf files from National .
look to LVDS family at National .
I tested it with ~15 meters cat 5 cable without any problems so with cat 6 it should work to 20 or more meters .
good quality coax can be solution too , but you will need 5 or 6 cables and much more complicated schematic to send and receive signal with good quality (low jitter) .
Attachments
>>>Vil: Whats your take on the M-Audio Delta 1010LT?
there is no possibility to route wav to ASIO internally .or maybe new drivers will do this , I don't know .
>>Also, could you give an example of a "low jitter master clock generator", how it is integrated into your system, and why it is important?
example o good clock - Elso kwak clock , LC audio stuff etc.
I am using my own design , which I made for LessLoss .
If you have good quality DAC's , clock jitter specifies what you can hear , detailed , nice analog like sound or just messy jittered s***t .
there is no possibility to route wav to ASIO internally .or maybe new drivers will do this , I don't know .
>>Also, could you give an example of a "low jitter master clock generator", how it is integrated into your system, and why it is important?
example o good clock - Elso kwak clock , LC audio stuff etc.
I am using my own design , which I made for LessLoss .
If you have good quality DAC's , clock jitter specifies what you can hear , detailed , nice analog like sound or just messy jittered s***t .
ShinOBIWAN/Vil:
What if I wasn't concerned with being able to output audio directly from the 1010LT and was only concerned with processing external input. Would the 1010LT be applicable in this situation?
What if I wasn't concerned with being able to output audio directly from the 1010LT and was only concerned with processing external input. Would the 1010LT be applicable in this situation?
Sorry, sorry, I'm really going to have to apologize here. I feel like I am totally hi-jacking this thread, but I have a similar project (conceptually similar, not in terms of quality of components however) going on and I'm at the point where I need to decide what kind of active crossover I'm going to use.
Usually I'm pretty quick with these things, but there are a lot of concepts being thrown around that are new to me. I looked up the price on the Prodigy 7.1 (and the Prodigy 192, which looks a little better) and it is totally reasonable. I want to use it with CONSOLE and the VST plugins you guys have mentioned here (which I already have) to take a stereo input, process it, and output the 6 channels to my 3-way speakers. I'd also like to be able to eliminate my other sound card by being able to output stereo audio as well as AC3 audio from the the same sound card that does the processing. I suppose this would mean using the internal router to route WAV or Directsound or whatever to ASIO and having it processed with the stereo input. I believe that in order to do this, since there may potentially be input audio at the same time that I'm using my WAV/DS output the card needs to be multiclient (is this correct?). I am assuming outputing AC3 audio from this card will be as easy as telling Theatertek to use the digital output from whichever card I choose. I'm leaning heavily toward the Prodigy 192, but also wanted to mention that for around the same price as the M-Audio Delta 1010LT (which doesn't look like it supports internal routing, although I'm almost positive now that it is multiclient) you can get the Maya 1010.
I know I may have turned into a real PITA here, but I'm really making progress with my design concept now. Can someone confirm that what I want to accomplish is possible with either the Prodigy 192 (if not, then the 7.1?) or the Maya 1010?
Usually I'm pretty quick with these things, but there are a lot of concepts being thrown around that are new to me. I looked up the price on the Prodigy 7.1 (and the Prodigy 192, which looks a little better) and it is totally reasonable. I want to use it with CONSOLE and the VST plugins you guys have mentioned here (which I already have) to take a stereo input, process it, and output the 6 channels to my 3-way speakers. I'd also like to be able to eliminate my other sound card by being able to output stereo audio as well as AC3 audio from the the same sound card that does the processing. I suppose this would mean using the internal router to route WAV or Directsound or whatever to ASIO and having it processed with the stereo input. I believe that in order to do this, since there may potentially be input audio at the same time that I'm using my WAV/DS output the card needs to be multiclient (is this correct?). I am assuming outputing AC3 audio from this card will be as easy as telling Theatertek to use the digital output from whichever card I choose. I'm leaning heavily toward the Prodigy 192, but also wanted to mention that for around the same price as the M-Audio Delta 1010LT (which doesn't look like it supports internal routing, although I'm almost positive now that it is multiclient) you can get the Maya 1010.
I know I may have turned into a real PITA here, but I'm really making progress with my design concept now. Can someone confirm that what I want to accomplish is possible with either the Prodigy 192 (if not, then the 7.1?) or the Maya 1010?
m0tion said:
Not thread hijacking at all m8. Way I see it is we're all here to share, so it doesn't bother me where that happens.
First off, good choice of soundcard, I really was trying to steer you in that direction but was unsure if you were a Delta owner since you mention it quite often 😉
Could I suggest that you go with the Prodigy 7.1 rather than the Prodigy 192. The reason is that the 7.1 uses good quality Wolfson DAC's and the 192 uses inferior parts, Strange but true, see the reviews here:
Prodigy 7.1:
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/audiotrak-prodigy71/
Prodigy 192:
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/sound/audiotrak-prodigy192.html
You can also bin your other sound card and exclusively use the Prodigy 7.1 for AC3 with TT and stereo with the external input. All that's required is you to route the signal's to the correct destinations for Console and its plugins to work its magic.
You'll also be able to create a 2.1 mix from the stereo input using the Waves Linear EQ and then route this to a sub.
It all looks a little intimidating at first (I thought so too) but actually its incredibly simple, easy to use and most of powerful stuff. I doubt you'll quiet believe the quality when you correctly setup the DRC stuff. It makes a considerable difference to the quality and the best words I could use to describe it would be that it makes the sound much more intelligible, realistic and cohesive.
Passive filters are quite laughable compared to the power and quality of the PC XO.
Also bear in mind that should you like what you hear and can live with the PC as an XO. You should really consider a dedicated box with a good pro soundcard and external DAC. Personally I'll be getting an Antelope Isochrone OCX clock when I've saved up the cash since building these has cleared my hifi budget out.
Certainly if your more technically adept then you could modify your Prodigy 7.1 as per Vil's instructions and have something that would sound close to the Isochrone for a fraction of the cost.
So to sum up, all that you have set out in your requirements can be accomplished with the setup outlined above and also go with the Prodigy 7.1 if possible - its a better sounding card thanks to the Wolfson DAC's.
onboard ADC/DAC on prodigy 7.1 or 192 sounds baaad . Don't use them in that way . if you wanna take signal from external analog source use sound card with better quality ADC converter , something better - RME , Echo Gina 3G , even delta 1010 will work better here .
Vil said:
Hmm, well the Delta 1010 or 1010LT are out because they don't support internal routing and I've decided thats a feature I'd really like. I looked at the Gina 3G and while it seems really nice it's outside my price range along with more or less everything from RME. I've had a little trouble finding a Prodigy 7.1 because I think it's being replaced by the
Prodigy 7.1LT, which while it does use a pig-tail cable for the analog outputs it seems to be a newer design and I've read the circuit has less noise because it uses fewer components (review here). Best of all you can get it at Newegg for $85 . I'm thinking about picking that up as it seems to be almost identical to the regular 7.1 component wise, just a different layout and more compact design. I don't think I'm going to worry too much about the clock at this point in my system, perhaps later I'll upgrade to a higher quality card that supports and external clock, but for right now I think I'm going with the 7.1LT (unless someone can point out a good reason why I shouldn't). Thanks for all the help so far.
m0tion said:
All the Delta cards are based on the Envy24 family of chips, same as the Prodigy and others. I believe that they all support the type of internal routing necessary to get this type of software system running *provided* they support multi-client drivers. I'm actually not sure whether the M-Audio drivers are true multi-client or not. I have a couple Delta cards (66 and 1010) but I think both are in Linux boxes at the moment. I'll see if I can determine whether this looks possible with the deltas or not.
dwk123 said:
The M-Audio drivers don't support internal routing at the moment but I'm not sure about multiclient, my gut feeling says yes.
I'm confused on how you could use the Prodigy 7.1 IF you have a seperate pc running active crossover duties since it only has one set of stereo inputs....
ogp:
The Prodigy 7.1LT could only be used to process 2 channels of input. You'd need a different card (like the MAYA1010 or something along those lines) in order to process a greater number of channels, for instance if you wanted to process all of the sound for your home theater. BTW, I looked into it a bit more and it seems that unless you were to buy one used, the standard Prodigy 7.1 is totally unavailable. I don't see any reason why the 7.1LT wouldn't be a perfect replacement though as it seems to have an identical feature set and even a superior layout.
The Prodigy 7.1LT could only be used to process 2 channels of input. You'd need a different card (like the MAYA1010 or something along those lines) in order to process a greater number of channels, for instance if you wanted to process all of the sound for your home theater. BTW, I looked into it a bit more and it seems that unless you were to buy one used, the standard Prodigy 7.1 is totally unavailable. I don't see any reason why the 7.1LT wouldn't be a perfect replacement though as it seems to have an identical feature set and even a superior layout.
if you wanna get I2S from prodigy 7.1LT , you will have hard soldering work . this card does not have 47ohm rezistors (good place to solder) from envy chip to wolfson dac .
sound quality of ADC/DAC part is pretty bad too .
sound quality of ADC/DAC part is pretty bad too .
Ok, that's what I thought. Looks like I'll be saving up for an RME DIGI9636 since running fully active 3-way fronts/center will require 9 channels along with my surrounds, rear surrounds and sub. Not to mention the 8 channels in from my pre/pro. The Maya 1010 looks to run about $250 and I'd need 2. The RME DIGI9636 runs $400 and has 36 channels so it should be sufficient.
Although, after I get my mains built, I may use a cheaper card for them as a proof of concept before dumping all that money into it....
Although, after I get my mains built, I may use a cheaper card for them as a proof of concept before dumping all that money into it....
Hi again Vil,
I was wondering what your thoughts about using pristine space for DRC were.
Been playing a little with the demo version and its pretty impressive stuff.
I grabbed an impulse response of my room using acxo then passed it through Denis Sbragion's DRC to create an inverse response to effectively cancel the rooms response.
I've then loaded this into the Pristine Space convolver and hey presto another DRC solution.
The speakers are back in bits for the last of finishing so I can't test at the moment.
Would be interested to hear your thoughts, which is likely the more superior method?
I was wondering what your thoughts about using pristine space for DRC were.
Been playing a little with the demo version and its pretty impressive stuff.
I grabbed an impulse response of my room using acxo then passed it through Denis Sbragion's DRC to create an inverse response to effectively cancel the rooms response.
I've then loaded this into the Pristine Space convolver and hey presto another DRC solution.
The speakers are back in bits for the last of finishing so I can't test at the moment.
Would be interested to hear your thoughts, which is likely the more superior method?
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