Hey all,
I'm trying toner transfer pcb etching and my first step is crapping out. I am using HP everyday glossy photo paper and it seems that part of the paper is melting onto the copper along with the toner. I've tried different laser printers for different toner. There is a white film that is stuck to the pcb and will not soak off and if I scrub hard enough the trace gets
damaged. Any paper suggestions I think that is the problem because the line detail seems good. Thanks for any input!
Steve (hartbigsky)
I'm trying toner transfer pcb etching and my first step is crapping out. I am using HP everyday glossy photo paper and it seems that part of the paper is melting onto the copper along with the toner. I've tried different laser printers for different toner. There is a white film that is stuck to the pcb and will not soak off and if I scrub hard enough the trace gets
Steve (hartbigsky)
You should get hold of some "press and peel" paper.
What you are attempting "kind of works" but is massively dependent on the paper you choose. I played around with this a number of years ago and concluded that there are extremely few "normal" papers that work and none that are reliable.
If people are trying to tell you to use paper, while it is true this can work, it is (a) damn hard (b) unreliable and (c) not as good an outcome as alternative approaches.
Press and peel is quite different to normal paper. It is a thin plastic coated with blue material that accepts toner when you print on it. Once you iron it to the pcb, the blue stuff separates from the plastic very easily.
There are a number of tricks you will need to learn using this, but once you get the hang of it, you can do pcbs with very fine tracks.
Ok it is not super cheap, but it will save you hours of grief.
Look on eBay for good prices.
Key tricks in my experience
- super clean pcb. Scrub with scourer and "Ajax" in Australia this is an abrasive cleaning agent
- clean and dry the pcb
- hot iron
- use a one inch wide wood offcut to firmly rub down the film as you iron it. Basically you need to ensure the transfer is well bonded to the pcb.
What you are attempting "kind of works" but is massively dependent on the paper you choose. I played around with this a number of years ago and concluded that there are extremely few "normal" papers that work and none that are reliable.
If people are trying to tell you to use paper, while it is true this can work, it is (a) damn hard (b) unreliable and (c) not as good an outcome as alternative approaches.
Press and peel is quite different to normal paper. It is a thin plastic coated with blue material that accepts toner when you print on it. Once you iron it to the pcb, the blue stuff separates from the plastic very easily.
There are a number of tricks you will need to learn using this, but once you get the hang of it, you can do pcbs with very fine tracks.
Ok it is not super cheap, but it will save you hours of grief.
Look on eBay for good prices.
Key tricks in my experience
- super clean pcb. Scrub with scourer and "Ajax" in Australia this is an abrasive cleaning agent
- clean and dry the pcb
- hot iron
- use a one inch wide wood offcut to firmly rub down the film as you iron it. Basically you need to ensure the transfer is well bonded to the pcb.
It is a little old thread but hee I go give it some live again.
I have tryed to etch with copperchloride who can be made myself but I did see underetching is severe, is this because I did not shake the bath or do bubble it with air? thin traces yust etch away, may I do use bubbles in to let move the etchant? do not now if that is alowed with the new etchant, this etchant get green with etching..
Maybe some help, thanks.
kees
I have tryed to etch with copperchloride who can be made myself but I did see underetching is severe, is this because I did not shake the bath or do bubble it with air? thin traces yust etch away, may I do use bubbles in to let move the etchant? do not now if that is alowed with the new etchant, this etchant get green with etching..
Maybe some help, thanks.
kees
You mean ferric chloride ? I use that, always warm (very warm/almost hot) by placing the etchant in a plastic container and then floating that in a sink of hot water. Around 3 or 4 mm of etchant depth and a 6 by 4 inch board would etch fully in around 10 minutes. I keep the container moving and swirl the etchant around.
No I do not mean that, but the version I make myself like this.
Cupric Chloride Etchant | Jim's Projects
But it did not well, I think bath has to move constant for good etch.
regards
Cuprum chloride would yield lots of cupric ions so you need to shake the container. The same happens to a lesser extent with FeCl3, also some temperature is needed for both to act as a catalyst.
The cheapest and quickest solution I know of is dissolved hydrochloric acid, which can be bought from most local diy stores ( used to clear clogged waste pipes ) for pennies and hydrogen peroxide 30%. Mixture I do is 50%/50% and would etch the copper in about15 minutes, starts quite aggressively with lots of bubbles.
For paper, I tried magazines, brochures ( all the glossy ones ), transfer paper and etc. Best result I get from the paper used as back for labels, the side to the paper label. You don`t even need it cooled, it would fall by itself and all ink remains on the copper side.
The cheapest and quickest solution I know of is dissolved hydrochloric acid, which can be bought from most local diy stores ( used to clear clogged waste pipes ) for pennies and hydrogen peroxide 30%. Mixture I do is 50%/50% and would etch the copper in about15 minutes, starts quite aggressively with lots of bubbles.
For paper, I tried magazines, brochures ( all the glossy ones ), transfer paper and etc. Best result I get from the paper used as back for labels, the side to the paper label. You don`t even need it cooled, it would fall by itself and all ink remains on the copper side.
my chemistry teacher once explained it to me. Copper etching is caused by a reaction of copper with copper ions at different oxidation states. All the chemicals used do just keep the solution acidic, supply oxygen and additional ions to keep the balance. Ferric chloride is less aggressive and less dangerous than pure HCl and H2O2. However it does the same job. It's cupric chloride etching too...😉
Things could be easier if the solution would already contain copper ions to start with. I have a paper lying around that explains an industrial copper etching process. It utilises a small amount of used etching solution to provide the copper ions, large amounts of harmless salt (NaCl) and only small amounts of HCl and H2O2.
Things could be easier if the solution would already contain copper ions to start with. I have a paper lying around that explains an industrial copper etching process. It utilises a small amount of used etching solution to provide the copper ions, large amounts of harmless salt (NaCl) and only small amounts of HCl and H2O2.
I know that the HCl + H202 solution can be stored and used multiple times and it is many times cheaper than FeCl3 and poses no real threat if thrown away. Can you look up that paper for the correct proportions, if nto a problem for you? Vielen dank 🙂
I'll try. However im not a chemicist and the paper descibes a circular process in which HCl and H2O2 are more or less continuously replenished.
NaCl content should be 3-4mol/l. HCl conc. content should be less than 30ml/l. The level of peroxide is not given directly.
They say 1kg copper uses up 3,1l HCl 32% and 1,36l H2O2 35%
NaCl content should be 3-4mol/l. HCl conc. content should be less than 30ml/l. The level of peroxide is not given directly.
They say 1kg copper uses up 3,1l HCl 32% and 1,36l H2O2 35%
This little program in internet can give the right solutions.
Etsmiddel Verhouding Calculator
I think to bubble it and then it will go right.
regards
I've done quite a lot of pcb etching, mostly with sodium persulfate, and can't imagine it being done without stirring or bubbling. 😉
I did read somewhere that with copper chloride I did may not bubble, But now id did read I can, no shaking of the bad do cause underetching.
I go try that, copperchloride do etch quick, good stuff.
regards
usually some parts of the pcb are etched slower than others, maybe because the solution gets trapped on the pcb and becomes inhomogeneous. So if you wait for some parts being etched, others will become underetched. Moving the pcb, stirring, bubbling etc will help to some extend.
I started etching PCBs in 1985 and have been through the three common etchants:
Ferric chloride
Cupric chloride
and some sort of "etch crystals" that resulted in a blue solution (no idea of the chemistry).
Ferric chloride used to be available in dry chunks that were dissolved in water. 1 kg of ferric chloride to 1 liter of water.
Cupric chloride is made by mixing hydrochloric acid (HCl), hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), and water (if not included with the H2O2).
Of the three etchants, I consistently find ferric chloride to give the best results in terms of trace/space tolerances, undercut, etc. It works quite well when heated to 35-40 ºC. It is messy, though.
The blue etch crystals were faster than ferric chloride and yielded similar results. However, they were more expensive and didn't seem to last as long.
Cupric chloride is too aggressive for my taste. I found planes would get pitted and skinny traces often etched through. I'm also not a fan of the fumes produced during the etch and beware that the fumes produced during bubbling/regeneration of the etchant are quite corrosive.
The etch rate across the board seems to mostly be a function of edges and corners. The etchant must have available surface copper to attack. That's pretty standard fare for etchants.
For the toner transfer, I use HP Brochure Paper. It's glossy, a bit heavier than normal paper, takes the toner well, and peels easily when dunked in water. For the last little bit of pulp between traces, I use a soft toothbrush. I've yet to brush the toner off the board.
Tom
Ferric chloride
Cupric chloride
and some sort of "etch crystals" that resulted in a blue solution (no idea of the chemistry).
Ferric chloride used to be available in dry chunks that were dissolved in water. 1 kg of ferric chloride to 1 liter of water.
Cupric chloride is made by mixing hydrochloric acid (HCl), hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), and water (if not included with the H2O2).
Of the three etchants, I consistently find ferric chloride to give the best results in terms of trace/space tolerances, undercut, etc. It works quite well when heated to 35-40 ºC. It is messy, though.
The blue etch crystals were faster than ferric chloride and yielded similar results. However, they were more expensive and didn't seem to last as long.
Cupric chloride is too aggressive for my taste. I found planes would get pitted and skinny traces often etched through. I'm also not a fan of the fumes produced during the etch and beware that the fumes produced during bubbling/regeneration of the etchant are quite corrosive.
The etch rate across the board seems to mostly be a function of edges and corners. The etchant must have available surface copper to attack. That's pretty standard fare for etchants.
For the toner transfer, I use HP Brochure Paper. It's glossy, a bit heavier than normal paper, takes the toner well, and peels easily when dunked in water. For the last little bit of pulp between traces, I use a soft toothbrush. I've yet to brush the toner off the board.
Tom
Hi Guys,
I have been echting boards for a long time and have got it down to where I am satisfied with the results.
Paper ,I used all of them that was recomended,didn't like them so I have bought the yellow sheets off the bay and use them,I did have good results with staples glossy print paper,some papers left a white plastic on the board,I found out I was too hot on the Iron,I took apiece of paper and put it on a inverted hot Iron and put a small pile of toner on it to see where the temp control would melt the toner,not cook it.
I pull the paper up while it's hot and see how well it transfers to the board,if alot of toner is still on the paper I iron it and apply more pressure,
I clean the board with 400 grit wet sand paper and wash it with dish detergent,then acetone till the paper towels have no black on them then they are clean,don't touch the copper after this with your fingers,they have oils on them and could keep the toner from sticking.
I have a small piece of plywood to press on when transfering to the board,I cross hatch and do small circles to make sure all areas have been pressed,the yellow paper lets loose when it transfered,The print paper can be pulled off when it's hot and you don't have to soak it to get the paper off.
I used ferric chloride in a glass pyrex cooking dish,don't tell my wife she's still looking for it,I put the pyrex dish in water in a electric frying pan,and add solution.set the temp about 105 degrees or less and the vapor will rust any thing in site,lol.I etch outdoors.
I take a 1 inch square piece of wood and a spacer to get the board down to the etchant and use masking tape to attach the board to it copper side out,this will let you agitate it and gravity will allow the copper to float down to the bottom of the solution,2oz boards etch in a few minutes.I have also made a ecthant,it has muratic acid (cement cleaner) hydrogen perioxide and table salt,I mix them half and half and add a handfull of salt,stir it up slowly. then place the board across the pyrex dish and into the solution and your on the way,I do move the board around some to agitate it.
Replys or other Ideas are welcome!
I have been echting boards for a long time and have got it down to where I am satisfied with the results.
Paper ,I used all of them that was recomended,didn't like them so I have bought the yellow sheets off the bay and use them,I did have good results with staples glossy print paper,some papers left a white plastic on the board,I found out I was too hot on the Iron,I took apiece of paper and put it on a inverted hot Iron and put a small pile of toner on it to see where the temp control would melt the toner,not cook it.
I pull the paper up while it's hot and see how well it transfers to the board,if alot of toner is still on the paper I iron it and apply more pressure,
I clean the board with 400 grit wet sand paper and wash it with dish detergent,then acetone till the paper towels have no black on them then they are clean,don't touch the copper after this with your fingers,they have oils on them and could keep the toner from sticking.
I have a small piece of plywood to press on when transfering to the board,I cross hatch and do small circles to make sure all areas have been pressed,the yellow paper lets loose when it transfered,The print paper can be pulled off when it's hot and you don't have to soak it to get the paper off.
I used ferric chloride in a glass pyrex cooking dish,don't tell my wife she's still looking for it,I put the pyrex dish in water in a electric frying pan,and add solution.set the temp about 105 degrees or less and the vapor will rust any thing in site,lol.I etch outdoors.
I take a 1 inch square piece of wood and a spacer to get the board down to the etchant and use masking tape to attach the board to it copper side out,this will let you agitate it and gravity will allow the copper to float down to the bottom of the solution,2oz boards etch in a few minutes.I have also made a ecthant,it has muratic acid (cement cleaner) hydrogen perioxide and table salt,I mix them half and half and add a handfull of salt,stir it up slowly. then place the board across the pyrex dish and into the solution and your on the way,I do move the board around some to agitate it.
Replys or other Ideas are welcome!
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A good paper to use for toner transfer is the stuff from Pulsar: Make your own Printed Circuit Boards in 8 minutes
It's coated with dextrose, so you can print onto it, laminate that onto the PCB, then soak it off with water, leaving only the toner. Then, you seal it with a special toner reactive foil, maybe touch it up with a Sharpie where the transfer went wrong, then etch it.
The most difficult part seems to be laminating it. I've found that many passes using a laminator set to high heat are required, and unless the PCB gets basically too hot to touch without gloves, the toner will not have transferred properly.
In the end, with a good layout, I can make PCBs using 10 mil traces and parts like SC-70-6 and DFN1212-3. So, the precision is not tremendously high, but again, if the layout is clean enough and the SMD footprints are good enough, I can make pretty reliable PCBs that are not too terribly difficult to assemble. This is certainly good enough for quick prototypes and breadboards for a test circuit, and it helps me a bunch.
It's coated with dextrose, so you can print onto it, laminate that onto the PCB, then soak it off with water, leaving only the toner. Then, you seal it with a special toner reactive foil, maybe touch it up with a Sharpie where the transfer went wrong, then etch it.
The most difficult part seems to be laminating it. I've found that many passes using a laminator set to high heat are required, and unless the PCB gets basically too hot to touch without gloves, the toner will not have transferred properly.
In the end, with a good layout, I can make PCBs using 10 mil traces and parts like SC-70-6 and DFN1212-3. So, the precision is not tremendously high, but again, if the layout is clean enough and the SMD footprints are good enough, I can make pretty reliable PCBs that are not too terribly difficult to assemble. This is certainly good enough for quick prototypes and breadboards for a test circuit, and it helps me a bunch.
The hotter the copper (of the board), the better it is for the toner transfer method.
Heating the paper is not totally correct (as it will fuse toner into the paper), but we have no other way. The laminate is the one that should be heated, but don't know how.
Gajanan Phadte
Heating the paper is not totally correct (as it will fuse toner into the paper), but we have no other way. The laminate is the one that should be heated, but don't know how.
Gajanan Phadte
I use a regular laminator that I modified a bit to take the 1.6 mm thick PCB material. I run the board through a few times to get it nice and hot. Then sandwich it with the PCB layout printed on HP brochure paper. Run that through 6-8 times. Let it cool. Soak in water. Peel off paper. Works great. Not production quality, but for prototypes it's pretty darn handy.
Tom
Tom
Hi,
I was heating the paper with toner on it to find the melting point of the toner this is where I set my iron temp to,you can pre heat the pcb board with your iron ,but I use a piece of plywood that will allow it to heat up also as you iron on the pattern,what ever works,lol.
Will too much heat burn or make the toner brittle? I have had small holes in the toner another layer ironed on will fix it,
Is there a best toner to use?
one page at a time🙂
NS
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