You're amazing. How do you do that? Anyway, I'm 65 and I shelved the full scale 5 string and bought a shorty; put a set of black plastic wraps on it, for occasional at home jam use. That's the span my fingers are willing to reach across these days.
I'm lucky to stay awake till 1AM, nevermind after unloading, setting up, entertaining people 1/3 my age through 3 sets while enduring live SPLs drums / guitar. Someone would be loading me into a van - on a stretcher. I'm jealous!
There is a huge difference between a passive radiator and a port: the PR can be much, much, much heavier than the air in a port.
That means you can, in fact, tune a PR in a small sealed box to a much lower frequency than you can tune a port.
Anyone remember Bob Carver's Sunfire subwoofer? Outside dimensions were 11" x 11" x 11", less than one cubic foot. The original model used one long-throw woofer, and one long-throw passive radiator, both heavily weighted. Frequency response went down to a claimed 18 Hz @ -3dB, but only extended up to 75 Hz at the other -3 dB point.
With outside dimensions being an eleven-inch cube, by the time you'd subtracted the wall thickness, and the volume occupied by the enormous magnet, the enclosed air volume was about one-half of a cubic foot.
For home theatre use, there was no doubt about the fact that these ludicrously small boxes could put out enormous amounts of very deep bass. They put out so much bass that they tended to "walk" across the floor if you didn't do something to make them stay put!
Efficiency is a different story. The Sunfire subs certainly put out lots of SPL, at very low frequencies, from a very small box - but they used enormous amounts of power to do this. Carver was a good engineer, but also good at marketing BS, so one can't trust any of his advertising claims - but IIRC, one version of the Subwoofer claimed to have a 2700 watt class D amplifier inside it.
Back then (circa 1998), 3kW of class D audio power required a unique, custom design. More than two decades later, massive amounts of class D audio power can be bought off-the-shelf, for not very much money.
This link has a few more bits of information on the original Sunfire sub: https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4_4/sunfiresubmk2.html
-Gnobuddy
Also search for discussions on Tom Danley's ContraBass project (back in the 90s on DIY Bass mailing lists). There was a lot of really good information floating around at the time.
You may want to study the bass player for Talas (and other bands...), Billy Shehan. My first electric stringed instrument was a Gibson EBO, Billy Shehan uses the pickup from that at his neck position. He claims it's unsurpassed for the deep tones. (After seeing him play at the very first show the student union put on when I arrived at college, he should know. As well as anybody..)
If he's aware of that, it follows that his amplification chain just might be designed to accommodate the tonality of that pickup. There's many articles about him available; try to find out.
Caveat; unsure if it's possible to use that pickup on a 5 string...
If he's aware of that, it follows that his amplification chain just might be designed to accommodate the tonality of that pickup. There's many articles about him available; try to find out.
Caveat; unsure if it's possible to use that pickup on a 5 string...
How funny, Billy Sheehan was one of my bass hero's when I first started playing.
He had a custom humbucker for the Yamaha signature bass on the neck
then P bass pickups for standard position.
Both pickups wired to separate dual output jacks.
Even more fun
had certain frets on the neck scalloped for solos
Did notice going back to the roots, you could say. Did a signature with
EBO pickup on the neck.
odd enough he claims he liked the highs and mids from a 15" speaker
then used 4x10 for lows. signal chain is mixture of distortion and clean.
and various separate compression chains to get the distortion / clean to match
well dynamically
Could only dream of seeing Talas live. Only seen him with Mr Big
when they did club shows. They pulled all the colored light gels
on the stage lights. All white light
Was a unbelievable glow
He had a custom humbucker for the Yamaha signature bass on the neck
then P bass pickups for standard position.
Both pickups wired to separate dual output jacks.
Even more fun
had certain frets on the neck scalloped for solos
Did notice going back to the roots, you could say. Did a signature with
EBO pickup on the neck.
odd enough he claims he liked the highs and mids from a 15" speaker
then used 4x10 for lows. signal chain is mixture of distortion and clean.
and various separate compression chains to get the distortion / clean to match
well dynamically
Could only dream of seeing Talas live. Only seen him with Mr Big
when they did club shows. They pulled all the colored light gels
on the stage lights. All white light
Was a unbelievable glow
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I was always under the impression that the most prolific (featured on greatest number of recordings ever) bass player and composer of all time, specified a sub + 4x10 when playing live. Depends on the music type as well, I suppose. But bass is bass, and there are sub drivers out there that sound beautiful in the upper bass too. I have been trailing some 10" DVC subs for reproducing the sound at each fret and with correct power the control and definition is amazing to the point where it disciplines you back to learn to play cleaner. The cheap benchmark for me is a JL audio W0 10" with 250rms in my car. Sometimes, while waiting for my kid at the playground, I jam with a recording with my bass straight into a little mixer feeding my car amp. I have found one 10" DVC sub that on paper features a 25hz - 6khz response. I bought one and looking for a poweramp to start experimenting with this. I feel it needs at minimum to hang off two channels more than 200wrms each to really come alive with perfect control. Have to bear in mind that the driver won't be seeing an optimum "monitor" class designed box, but rather a box to add color to the pure sine wave from the guitar
What I have found is that basses with passive tone, vol, balance and such controls sound terrible when played through systems featuring subs. Actives on the other hand sound gorgeous. I am sending the neck and bridge pickup separately over a stereo TRS to a pair of Yamaha Dpre inputs on my home studio mixer. The Yamaha preamp seems more than capable of dealing with a raw pickup signal. Sounds gorgeous with a logitech Z623 sub plugged into the home studio as the bass monitor, to the point that I cant even care about any electronic rules that I might be violating with straight fed pickups
I would recommend keeping an open mind. Want room filling, powerful bass? Maybe leave aside the bass amp for a moment and source a Z623 and trail that as the bass amp with a preamp or mixer to plug the bass in with? Even two of these systems will easily fit into a camry. I had one running on an inverter in my old taxi which was a hybrid camary, never really found it to impact greatly on luggage space. Just walk into a retailer with one on display and request to plug in with your pre. Hope you find this useful in locating the sound you are after in the prefered package size
Very interesting. Maybe the active basses already include a high-pass filter inside, that knocks down all those muddy very low frequencies?
That would suggest that (active bass + subwoofer) is actually the same as (passive bass + preamp + high-pass filter + subwoofer), and this is why adding a sub to an active bass doesn't cause problems.
-Gnobudy
I found a measured frequency response for the Logitech Z623. The subwoofer has most of its output between 40Hz and 70 Hz. It doesn't really do much below 45 Hz. This might explain why it doesn't produce heavy sonic mud that more capable subwoofers do.
The attached plot came from this online review: http://noaudiophile.com/Logitech_z623/
-Gnobuddy
The attached plot came from this online review: http://noaudiophile.com/Logitech_z623/
-Gnobuddy
Attachments
So I've read this thread with interest. Has anyone considered using an isobaric set up as a solution to cab size? Would this not yeild the desired low end with nice tight transients? Just a thought.
Bear in mind that the review is for the input fed from the "aux" in. When the internal filters and boost is bypassed, it does the lowest fret with an authority that music shop amp cab combos can only dream of. I feel that this combination of driver, port, box and amp somehow has come together in a very optimum fashion. I know I am carrying on like a fanboi but only because I just cannot seem to find a more defined and authoritative package to plug a bass into for anywhere near that kind of money. Please read my tone being totally shocked and bewildered by this thing's ability with a bass plugged in. One thing that just hit me is maybe it is the unit's ability to resist driver distortion and maybe the amp has an awesome peak ability?
I feel the aspects of this unit and what makes it work the way it does with a bass guitar should be explored and developed further
Any idea how the high and mid bass frequencies would get affected? My intuition says teaspooning might be better then clamshell? Opinions?
I have a 2.1 system on the shelf here that I havent gotton around to messing with yet. The sub features an internal bandpass style mount with a slightly larger passive radiator teaspooned on the face. I totally forgot about this unit
Isobaric makes the box half the size yes.
but you loose half the efficiency and need double the power to get to the same place.
or you need to add another cab to get the efficiency back.
so now your back to where you started but you need 4 drivers not 2.
A bass cab with authority is the same formula its always been.
2x15 or 2x12. The higher performing drivers of today are miles above
what most are used to from the 80's and 90's
as with anything, high quality drivers come with a price.
if you want sub bass, I can put you through the mains no problem.
car stereo subs are low efficiency, and there is a lot of cabin gain
in a car. takes a good 100 watts or more to do what a live
audio driver can do with 5 watts.
fender tried it, they made a 4x10 with sub drivers
= discontinued less than a year.
I have used computer speakers with a " sub"
at home for make shift monitors. Bass sounded good through
that with usual amp sim plugins. But same thing
not really a sub, maybe did 40 Hz
but you loose half the efficiency and need double the power to get to the same place.
or you need to add another cab to get the efficiency back.
so now your back to where you started but you need 4 drivers not 2.
A bass cab with authority is the same formula its always been.
2x15 or 2x12. The higher performing drivers of today are miles above
what most are used to from the 80's and 90's
as with anything, high quality drivers come with a price.
if you want sub bass, I can put you through the mains no problem.
car stereo subs are low efficiency, and there is a lot of cabin gain
in a car. takes a good 100 watts or more to do what a live
audio driver can do with 5 watts.
fender tried it, they made a 4x10 with sub drivers
= discontinued less than a year.
I have used computer speakers with a " sub"
at home for make shift monitors. Bass sounded good through
that with usual amp sim plugins. But same thing
not really a sub, maybe did 40 Hz
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Again quoting this as I am curious as to what PA subs are these? I have been looking and can't seem to find any PA sub drivers that can go lower than a decent woofer. Are majority only playing mid and high bass?
Again, can't really seem to find PA drivers that go low. Most barely make it to 40. I didn't realise that car subs are made for car cabins. Decent car and home subs appear to be specced similar and I thot that the car offers the cabin loading advantage to get away with smaller boxes and both car and home drivers are getting built to exploit smaller boxes and room loading to the point of no difference?
Isn't a car sub used in the JL gotham and fathom? I have never heard anyone complain about the quality of bass from these home sub enclosures
Depends on the club
Can just be a few reflex style 2x18 subs
Deepest sub I heard in a club system was horn loaded
Martin.
And the owner spent a lot of time putting together
or upgrading the system with DSP.
Can just be a few reflex style 2x18 subs
Deepest sub I heard in a club system was horn loaded
Martin.
And the owner spent a lot of time putting together
or upgrading the system with DSP.
Car audio or home subs are capable yes of going very low.
But the efficiency is only around 80 to 90 dB
so they dont work well for live audio.
Pro sound drivers can be around 95 to 100 dB
And a horn loaded subs can be around 105 to 115 dB
With some neo drivers going well into 3000 watt rage
a single horn loaded sub can reach a good 135 to 150 dB
Maximum SPL
home or car subs don't lack in performance at all.
they just don't have the efficiency to work in
a band situation , and especially a outdoor application.
to make sense in a generalized manner.
take a 300 to 500 watt car sub.
if you could push it to max thermal rating. at 300 watts
maybe you would hit 108 to 115 dB with cabin gain maybe 120
horn loaded live sound sub could do same SPL level with 3 or 5 watts
what is the trade off?
car sub fits in 1 to 3 cubic feet. Horn loaded sub
little bit bigger box, like a lot bigger box
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But I am guessing that those bins and horns would not fit into a Camry! It seems to me that current live standard is super efficient "super woofers" as opposed to true subs. I can understand that with concert live rock type stuff but smaller bar type environments and would be better off with quality big wattage car type drivers. Plug into a music shop and the bass amps and PAs sound bass weak. I would rather bass delivery was solid
Focus here is small form factor bass amps (guessing around carry on luggage size, give or take some cubes). For this a 15 that can hit 40hz is not going to work, too biguh. So taking Carver's inspiration would be a smart idea. As you say watts are cheap now
I drove a number of runs from Hervery Bay into NSW with Dub playing at full tilt, (bass amp just under clipping) The 10" WO could be heard and felt a long way. The amp delivers about 250wrms before clipping. The trips were around 4 to 5hrs non stop. If anythig the better car subs may even be built tougher then home ones and again another reason to poke into portable knockables
Am I the only one that can see that some so called sub drivers are just only overbuilt woofers with a better lower extention and excursion ability? Fender may have stuck some flimsy home cheapo sub into their amp, cant see them quite reaching for W7s
Focus here is small form factor bass amps (guessing around carry on luggage size, give or take some cubes). For this a 15 that can hit 40hz is not going to work, too biguh. So taking Carver's inspiration would be a smart idea. As you say watts are cheap now
I drove a number of runs from Hervery Bay into NSW with Dub playing at full tilt, (bass amp just under clipping) The 10" WO could be heard and felt a long way. The amp delivers about 250wrms before clipping. The trips were around 4 to 5hrs non stop. If anythig the better car subs may even be built tougher then home ones and again another reason to poke into portable knockables
Am I the only one that can see that some so called sub drivers are just only overbuilt woofers with a better lower extention and excursion ability? Fender may have stuck some flimsy home cheapo sub into their amp, cant see them quite reaching for W7s
Also, I do not believe that the low sensitivity is designed in for car cab requirements. I think that tightness is the product of heavy mass and suspension to make a small driver do the job of a much larger one in a controlled, distortion fee manner and moving and stopping that takes power which has been available for a while now
Put this into perspective again, live concert is sorted. But these 30 50 watt shop amps are toy like, just an illusion for the player, most would be really suprised what their instrument was producing and recording as they would have no hope to really monitor the sound. A small band working electronic instruments record better then the typical garrage. I think a lot of musos just take a cheap dirty low pass filter insteading of trying to play and record a full fat sound range that would make the listeners lovingly chosen systems sing out in glory. EDM and Dub are the exceptions, the better producers hear exactly what is being recorded and their enthusiast listeners have systems to play that back. The other music segments need to open their eyes and deliver cleaner and better content in the low end
Put this into perspective again, live concert is sorted. But these 30 50 watt shop amps are toy like, just an illusion for the player, most would be really suprised what their instrument was producing and recording as they would have no hope to really monitor the sound. A small band working electronic instruments record better then the typical garrage. I think a lot of musos just take a cheap dirty low pass filter insteading of trying to play and record a full fat sound range that would make the listeners lovingly chosen systems sing out in glory. EDM and Dub are the exceptions, the better producers hear exactly what is being recorded and their enthusiast listeners have systems to play that back. The other music segments need to open their eyes and deliver cleaner and better content in the low end