P10-hifi Alpair 7.3eN + SDX7eN WAW (aka FAST)

[chrisb]

And now, ladies and gentlemen, for the first time ever on our stage tonight,

Full-Range And Subs, Together -

Imagine me and you, I do ....

so happy together


those of us of a certain age will remember Ed Sullivan's Sunday evening show - long before the VCR ,etc, made for a family event watching - everything from plate spinners to some crazy new British singing group

just don't make 'em them like that anymore - but of course with You-Tube, one wonders, why bother?

 

[Scottmoose]

Do they also dance off into the sunset Chris?

That aside, I do like this design. Only wish I'd designed it TBH! Lots of potential in this sort of thing.

 

[Scottmoose]

You're reading it incorrectly. It reminds me of North Americans who can't pronounce Worcestershire.

It's not 'sub technology', it's 'FR and sub' technology. No wonder you have a hard time with it.

There you have it Cal -such matters are beyond the ken of the likes of I.

How about: Assisted Woofer & Fullrange Under License

Ya baby!

That'll do it.

 

[Tyimo]

That's the terminus of the (aperiodic) mid-TL.

Thanks Scott!

 

[ZUM911]

Dave and Chris,

I do have 4 SDX7s and the A7.3. Happy to pay for plans for this design or another.

Cheers
Rick

Box plans would only be useful if you have 4 SDX7. PLLXO is well known, has to be tuned to your amps -- it is 2 C & 1 R for each channel.

dave

Rafal - the "boxes" were a rather time consuming fabrication to fabricate curved plywood panels on CNC machined ribbed skeletal frame. All told with the veneering and finishing, there must have been 100hrs in them.

I was quite happy with the final results, but there are much simpler designs that would deliver a high percentage of the performance with less than 20% of the labour.

 

[DeonC]

Unfortunately we have yet to find a new woofer we like as much as the SDX7.

dave

Have you considered the DC Gold Audio drivers? The N7R, N9.5Ror W10R drivers might just be what you are looking for. Not cheap, but I do think they could be just what the doctor ordered.

 

[planet10]

I do have 4 SDX7s and the A7.3. Happy to pay for plans for this design or another.

Rick, you have email.

dave

 

[planet10]

Have you considered the DC Gold Audio drivers? The N7R, N9.5Ror W10R drivers might just be what you are looking for.

Thanx for the suggestion.

dave

 

[AlexQS]

Hi guys. Thanks in advance for your patience with the newb questions. I'm thinking ahead to my spring project (I should be finished with my amplifiers by then)

Dave said (I'm paraphrasing) 4 SDX7's and a pair of Alpair 7.3 sound better than FHxl with Ap.10.3. And I know he's referring to the Wide Cabinet in this thread. Well my question is: could a person get near equal results using SDX7 & Alpain 7.3 in Frugal Horn 3, and a separate subwoofer box, or am I trying to compare apples and oranges? Question 2, instead of PLLXO, could a DSP programmed with a 160hz 12dB/Oct work just as well, or is there another difference that I'm not aware of.

Thanks for your time, I'm thinking FHmk3 or FHxl will be my next project, and I'm thinking of adding a sub since I have DSP. Either that or maybe Vulcans with Fostex,... decisions, decisions. Oh last question for now,.. How many sheets of 4'x8' or 5'x5' are needed to make one pair of Frugal Horns? Thanks

 

[planet10]

Maybe. You should certainly be able to come close.

Some things to think about.

The FH3 would be doing not much, and you'd likely want to damp the crap out of it. FH3 won't have as low a diffraction signature.

The C-C of the lower bass driver and the A7.x are within a quarter-wave length at the XO (even with XO up to 240 Hz or so). Might look funny trying to maintain that.

You'd have to treat BSC completely different.. in the wide enclosure XO & BS are really close to each other.

PLLXO is the absolutely least instrusive XO possible.

A DSP XO could be done with a phase coherent XO but it would need to be the right one. No analog in (often not an issue). And few do the 24/192 i use with my system. 4 channels of DAC instead of 2. Would cost a whole lot more.

What makes sense is to use more of the FH3 (ie XO lower), which allows for greater woofer/FR separation.

I suspect that differences would be small. Room & kit could easily give one the edge over the other.

No matter which system, one with EnABLed drivers will outdo the one without.

I'm sure i could come up with more…

dave

PS: You are within visiting distance… come on over

 

[planet10]

How many sheets of 4'x8' or 5'x5' are needed to make one pair of Frugal Horns?

Cut plans in the plan-sets.

dave

 

[AlexQS]

The C-C of the lower bass driver and the A7.x are within a quarter-wave length at the XO (even with XO up to 240 Hz or so). Might look funny trying to maintain that.
End quote
--------------------
No it would look cool, I'd just suspend the fh3 upside down from the ceiling right above the sub (joke)

Thanks for the reply though. I think I get it 99% which is good for this novice.

I'm not 100% sure about my dsp, if it's phase coherent. I mostly have doubts in my measurements, using the right window, deriving minimum phase from the measurement correctly, etc. I've been reading a lot of Jeff Bagby though, and something almost magical happened when I time delayed my tweeter .03ms. I've got 6ch DAC, 24/96, but I digress

I'll read up on EnABLed though.

By the way, thanks for the invite, thats very kind. I didn't realize you're only an hour or so north of Seattle, but still a good 7 hours from me. It's a nice long weekend with MLK Day, but I already have other plans. I'll let you know if the wife and I go spend a weekend in Seattle someday. I'd love to run across the border.

 

[planet10]

You aren't going to get any reasonable measures in a room at the frequencies the XO is at.

Seattle to me about 80 miles as the crow flies, but a lot of water. You can take a passenger ferry from Seattle, a regular ferry from Port Angeles, or from Twassen. The later about 4 hrs up I5 (assumming you get across the border quickly), 2 hr on the ferry, the ferry wait, and i'm 45 min or so from the ferry…

Every summer a crew from WA comes up for diyFEST.

dave

 

[zman01]

AlexQS,

What sort of musical genres do you enjoy? If you enjoy heavier genres, probably a FAST with woofers (not sub-woofers) will suit you better with XO around 300-350 Hz; a "sub" will likely not go that high.

 

[AlexQS]

AlexQS,

What sort of musical genres do you enjoy? If you enjoy heavier genres, probably a FAST with woofers (not sub-woofers) will suit you better with XO around 300-350 Hz; a "sub" will likely not go that high.

Hey zman01, Thanks for the reply. I don't want to get too far off topic, as a couple of my comments above (about measuring phase) were about the 3-ways that I designed (in a humble effort to begin learning), but they are certainly not Planet-10 loudspeakers.

As to your comment, yes, the FAST idea is very interesting to me.

For a FAST to work, does it require the FR to be in the same baffle as the woofer?

I'm thinking it probably depends on how high they are crossed. If the frequency from the woofer is low enough it's no longer perceived directionally from a point in space, and probably has more to do with the room. But if the crossover point is higher, then the center to center of the two drivers becomes critical, because being able to get the phase of the two drivers to line up at the xo freq. is imparative to reduce time-smearing and maintain high-resolution of the stereo image. Then the baffle width needs consideration as well. -Am I understanding correctly or do I sound like nonsense?

About music, what is a "heavy genre"? I listen to a wide variety of genres, 3 peice Jazz similar to Dave Brubekt, other jazz like Tony Overwater, or jazz vocals like Diana Krawl, stuff like Buena Vista Social Club, Pink Martini, or pop like Greys Anatomy Music Cast, rock like Dire Straights, Carlos Santana, Eric Clapton, Neil Young, Dave Matthews, Steely Dan, Bob Marley.

 

[AlexQS]

You aren't going to get any reasonable measures in a room at the frequencies the XO is at.

Yeah I know. I tried to do a near field measure for everything under 500hz. Maybe not ideal, but given the environment I have to work in.... Right now it's just too wet to go outside.

Seattle to me about 80 miles as the crow flies,

Every summer a crew from WA comes up for diyFEST.

dave

Cool, only half an hour in my private helicopter. (Just kidding)

 

[zman01]

AlexQS,

For a FAST to work, the drivers need not necessarily be on the same baffle. And yes, if XO is lower then the C2C distance from the drivers can be more. So a lower XO is convenient that ways. FH3 supported by a sub-woofer for the low frequencies is also a FAST.

The genres you have mentioned, specially jazz (in my experience) can sound very nice on a good single driver wide-band/full-range system. Well recorded pop, lighter rock genres also work. Even some electronica at moderate volumes. But heavy metal/hard rock - not so much.

Have fun building and look forward to your updates!

 

[planet10]

For a FAST to work, does it require the FR to be in the same baffle as the woofer?

No

But if the crossover point is higher, then the center to center of the two drivers becomes critical

The centre-to-centre is always critical. But at LF the wavelengths get so long it is much easier to achieve.

dave

PS: no place to land that helicopter here.

 

[AlexQS]

The centre-to-centre is always critical. But at LF the wavelengths get so long it is much easier to achieve.

I see, that makes sense.

I wish there were more hours in the day,... I'd better get back to work.

Thanks!

 

[onform]

Guys, I have invented a new type of speaker. I call it MAST or Midrange Assited Subwoofer and Tweeter technology. Now I just need enough of you guys to start using it to make it stick.