output devices on X -X.5 and XA.5

[a.wayne]

Yes, they do cost more, but not that much more. Take the Cambridge Audio Azur840W power amp $2000. Then compare it to the Mark Levinson 532H, $8500. In terms of what the parts inside cost, I'd say they are both probably about equal. In no shape or form does the Levinson product justify costing more then 4x the amount.

Lets say we wanted to upgrade the Cabridge Audio part, giving it bigger heat sinks, make it put out 2x the amount of power, giving it another transformer and twice the filter caps. Oh wait, that's like buying two, for $4000 total, still way less then the Levinson and giving you way more for your money. You see where this is going? You could build both for a similar amount of money if done DIY. There's nothing about the Levinson product that makes it need to cost that much.

Then if we want to compare products at the really absurd level, take the Musical Fidelity AMS100 and the MBL 9011. The MF costs $20,000 and the MBL $53,000. They are both huge and probably cost a similar amount to make. You could probably build them both DIY and have spare change from $5000. All things considered,that makes the MF reasonable value for money, but the MBL? Again nothing about it justifies its ridiculous price tag over the MF.

This is audiophile component pricing right there for you and it gets even more ridiculous when you start looking at things that aren't power amplifiers or loudspeakers. Both of those do have high costs involved as they require physically large parts, cabinets, heatsinks, drivers, transformers etc, so do somewhat warrant their high prices. But preamps? DACs? Take the Bricasti M1 - $7800. LOL. Nothing about that DAC makes it worth the money. It's basically a dual mono DAC, using AD1955 chips and a SHARC processor that does the digital filtering. It then has several power supplies. But seriously a decent PC built for gaming and costing $2000 is going to have way more in it in terms of raw component cost and is also far more of a challenge for the engineers to design, that it is in terms of development cost.



FR4 is one of the industry standards for PCB materials that is required for fire safety. There's nowt else you get for paying more and you choose the copper thickness based on the application. All high power stuff needs 2oz or 4oz to work properly, regardless of cost, it's necessary.




Good quality connectors are not expensive, as in connectors that provide a good quality termination for the wires and then connectors that interface snugly with one another. Any $1000 product is going to have connectors that are of a quality necessary for good signal transmission. Anything else (WBT etc) is audiophile bling that costs more, looks nice, but doesn't actually do anything.



In terms of a power amp this isn't really the case. Any small signal stuff is going to cost pence per transistor. You're looking at less then $2 of parts for the small signal silicon when the parts are purchased in high quantities. Output and driver transistors are a little more expensive, but we're still only talking say $10 worth of silicon for a stereo amp. Doubling that ain't gonna bump the price of the amplifier up by very much.



Once again cost pence.



Are necessary so that your amplifier doesn't have poor reliability and so that it wont explode. This is regardless of cost. Any power amplifier that has multiple output pairs needs decent transistor matching.

Lol, this is all pretty naive 5th , to say the least ...

 

[Stefanoo]

Ahahahahah...

 

[5th element]

Lol, this is all pretty naive 5th , to say the least ...

Speaking from what, experience? I've been building all of my hifi equipment for the last 10 years, I know what parts cost and how much it'd cost roughly to make comparable pieces of equipment. There's nothing special about audiophile bling, the best parts are the well engineered stuff sold at decent prices. The Cambridge Audio power amp is a prime example of this, designed by a very credible engineer that has a no nonsense attitude to design. You end up with an amplifier with excellent performance that's built well for a decent price.

I also recognise that the Musical Fidelity Titan, the AMS 100 and some of the Krell amps actually represent decent enough value for money. A big powerful amplifier, or a big class A amp do demand parts that cost quite a lot. But there's reasonable, when it comes to the cost of high end equipment, then there's absurd, where the value for money is next to nill. You are never going to be able to convince me that the darTZeel NHB458 is worth it's $144,500 price tag, it's a glorified PC case with an amplifier in side. You're not paying for audio engineering, you're paying for an expensive case.

 

[5th element]

I agree you pay the name, but again the more expensive product uses higher quality parts. A simple transformer like 1 200VA can be $30, $100 or even $300 depending on desing, features and quality of parts and to your eye they might look the same

This is rubbish a well made toroidal transformer is a well made toroidal transformer. Buy a decent one, it wont hum and it'll give you the power it says on the sticker. If you're paying twice the amount for one toroid of the same spec vs another of the same spec and they are both from reputable manufactures, then you'd be daft to buy the more expensive one, just because it was more expensive.

No question that doing a DIY will save you money as long as you can exactly copy the same part and get the same parts, However the final bill won't be as little as you think. You tend to forget that metal enclousure costs and lathough you can make whatever because you have access to machines, most of us CAN'T

I don't have access to much, just a quality router with lots of bits and ebay for aluminium. The alu isn't that expensive and you can use the heatsinks to form the sides of the case, making things easy to put together. I wasn't meaning DIY each of them though, the point was that the Levinson product, vs the CA product represents crap value for money, in that you could build both for a similar amount if you had the tools to do so. If the Levinson part really was worth it, then you'd simply not be able to do this.

Please don't compare two different brands, it's like compare a sport Mercedes and a sport Toyota, brand comes to a price and usually brings a little better quality but not compared to the price tag; if you want the best you have to be prepared to spend much more for little improvement

Why shouldn't I compare brands, we're talking about value for money here, you're basically admitting that you're paying through the teeth just because it's a MBL vs a MF and then saying that of course the MBL will sound better because it's more expensive, which is a load of crap.

I agree with you that there is a speculation on premaps, dacs, cd, cables...more than on power amps, but ultimetly you are not considering the team that works on the design, the many iteration for prototyping...I mean if you have designed something on your own you know that you go through several revision, several waste of parts energy time...etc...etc...don't you count this in? The more refined the design the more cost upfront you had to substain

There's a design team refining any product in any category that you choose, PC parts, audio equipment, step top boxes, whatever. The difference with PC parts is that the have to perform to spec otherwise they fail testing and cannot be sold. There's no end of rubbish released into the audiophile world with ridiculous price tags. I actually respect the Bricasti designers and the designers of most of the DCS stuff too as they do produce products that perform extremely well.

there is teflon, gold plated and many other features

Which are going to do what exactly? Make your PCB non stick and shiny? Yes teflon is a nice dielectric, but it ain't gonna make your CD player sound nicer because the PCB is made from it. Gold too has poorer electrical conductivity vs the bog standard copper traces, if the PCBs are soldered and finished correctly then the traces will not tarnish either.

Speaking of difference...ohhh..there is a significant difference between a standard RCA and a wbt next gen in term of sound quality: faster and deeper base, more focus on the soundstage, more micro detail...

This is audiophile nonsense.

Matched semiconductors:
They are used to improve distortion not to make it reliable!! Also can b more reliable under certain circumstances...however ultimately matching is done to improve performance.

No, output stage transistors are matched to ensure that they share current effectively, rather then having one device be put under an unfair amount of stress. If unmatched, this causes amplifiers to EXPLODE. Matching in this case is done for reliability.

You do get a performance increase in a lot of amplifiers if the input pair is well matched, but if this is critical to your design then you simply buy a silicon chip that contains two transistors in one and be done with it.

This come to a cost which exponentially goes up as power i.e. number of devices goes up and u might need to buy 300 per type to find 24 good matching ..which means 600 fets for maybe 48 good matching.
This eeck more expensive than what u think.

This is not the way that it happens. If you buy 300 devices you will most likely be able to match up almost all of them into groups of similar performing devices. You might end up with say 24 of them at the end that don't fit into any batches. But if you purchased 300 devices and only 24 of them matched at all then I'd go to a different transistor manufacturer that has better consistency. You don't need them all to fit into a certain bracket either. If you're beta matching devices, if you've got 24 parts @ say 200-220, then that will do. 24 parts also between 280-300 will also do. They just need to be the same as each other, not all the same to one specific value.

 

[Stefanoo]

Speaking from what, experience? I've been building all of my hifi equipment for the last 10 years, I know what parts cost and how much it'd cost roughly to make comparable pieces of equipment. There's nothing special about audiophile bling, the best parts are the well engineered stuff sold at decent prices. The Cambridge Audio power amp is a prime example of this, designed by a very credible engineer that has a no nonsense attitude to design. You end up with an amplifier with excellent performance that's built well for a decent price.

I also recognise that the Musical Fidelity Titan, the AMS 100 and some of the Krell amps actually represent decent enough value for money. A big powerful amplifier, or a big class A amp do demand parts that cost quite a lot. But there's reasonable, when it comes to the cost of high end equipment, then there's absurd, where the value for money is next to nill. You are never going to be able to convince me that the darTZeel NHB458 is worth it's $144,500 price tag, it's a glorified PC case with an amplifier in side. You're not paying for audio engineering, you're paying for an expensive case.

5th I think you are not reasoning completely straight here.
Everybody agrees that something off the shelf costs more than something you made.
Just a simple example, a piece of meet cooked at a restaurant costs more than if were preparing the same piece at home.
You can easily cok that thus no problem on that side and you probably end up saving 10% or more, right?
But the here is the thing....I am sure you go out to eat at times...then you realize that the make the piece of meat for you...they bring it to you...and after you are done...they clean it for you....so you are paying a service.
But now...let's say a chef is cooking for you...it is really expensive, right?
Now maybe the plate costs you $100 or more and you can surely sit there and price everything is using and you end up saying, this is outrageous I am not paying this much for something is worth $10 or less.
But here you are wrong, that is something you can't make at home and that yes everybody agrees it costs too much and maybe it is just a little better than something else you get for 50% less.....BUT if you want that little more you gotta pay that much there is no way out.
There is work, study and research behind it...a lot of time and energy invested.
Do you understand?
You are not supposed to copy things....but everybody does....manufacturer tend to keep their secter pretty hidden...but still....anyhow...that is their work and it is worth that much whether you are willing to pay that much or not.
But if you don't you are naive by thinking that you get the same thing by buying something much cheaper (unless you buy something used vs something new the story changes).

I have listened to several Cambridges...they are good amp...but nothing more than what you pay...2K or so....I would never, ever connect them to my system, it would give me a bad headache I would turn the system off right away!!

Again you are being naive or maybe lack of preparation in terms of listening experience...but an MBL or ML or Jeff Rowland or a nice Pass they all sound way superior compared to a mediocre Cambridge or a Marantz or something similar.
Now all of them have a transforemer, output stage and connectors...BUT...there is a huge sonic difference.
Do yuo agree with this?

Now to comment the other post.....a transformer that does it's work...and delivers the power it is supposed to...oh gosh...this tells me a lot about your preparation...if you can't even hear the sonical difference between a toroidy and a plitron audio is not for you.
Not to mention the difference with a cheap $30 dollar's.
I mean...it is not just about hum and whatever else...it is about QUALITY...something you haven't taken into consideration till now...and there where is the true cheff comes into play.

Thank you Nelson for cooking such a nice meal for me

 

[Melon Head]

I think the point 5th is trying to make is that while it might be near impossible to clone a manufacturer's product, it is not impossible to make something that is better, because you are custom designing to your exact requirements/likes, which is something you can do for a fraction of the price that a manufacturer charges. There are a lot of people here that can help you along the way too, including people like Nelson himself.

 

[5th element]

Do yuo agree with this?

No. You sound like a typical subjectively driven audiophile trying to defend his position.

Now to comment the other post.....a transformer that does it's work...and delivers the power it is supposed to...oh gosh...this tells me a lot about your preparation...if you can't even hear the sonical difference between a toroidy and a plitron audio is not for you.
Not to mention the difference with a cheap $30 dollar's.
I mean...it is not just about hum and whatever else...it is about QUALITY...something you haven't taken into consideration till now...and there where is the true cheff comes into play.

And this comment is why I think the above.

You're talking absolute rubbish from any engineering standpoint, appearing as if you know nothing about what a transformer actually does.

A power transformer will not alter the way an amplifier sounds, heck it's only connected to the amplifier for a small % of the time anyway as the rectifier diodes only conduct during the peaks of the AC waveform.

If the transformer is responsible for affecting how the amplifier sounds, then it is either vastly undersized, positioned so that hum is induced into the signal path, hums loudly itself or is defective. Although having said that any transformer that actually does any of the former would be considered defective for the application anyway.

What Melon Head said though is true. The main point is that you could build both the Levinson and Cambridge Audio power amps for roughly the same amount of money, that's if you DIY. Sure your product would look only as nice as you choose to make it, but the stuff that makes it sound the way it does, will cost a similar amount. In other words what you're paying for with the Levinson is the pretty case and the brand name, not audio engineering.

 

[Stefanoo]

No. You sound like a typical subjectively driven audiophile trying to defend his position.



And this comment is why I think the above.

You're talking absolute rubbish from any engineering standpoint, appearing as if you know nothing about what a transformer actually does.

A power transformer will not alter the way an amplifier sounds, heck it's only connected to the amplifier for a small % of the time anyway as the rectifier diodes only conduct during the peaks of the AC waveform.

If the transformer is responsible for affecting how the amplifier sounds, then it is either vastly undersized, positioned so that hum is induced into the signal path, hums loudly itself or is defective. Although having said that any transformer that actually does any of the former would be considered defective for the application anyway.

What Melon Head said though is true. The main point is that you could build both the Levinson and Cambridge Audio power amps for roughly the same amount of money, that's if you DIY. Sure your product would look only as nice as you choose to make it, but the stuff that makes it sound the way it does, will cost a similar amount. In other words what you're paying for with the Levinson is the pretty case and the brand name, not audio engineering.

ok, 5th I personally think that audio is not your cup of tea.

If you can't even tell the difference from a good transformer and a mediocre one or not even the difference between a Cambridge and Pass Labs or a ML or a Jeff Rowland then....I don't know ahahah....I am out of words.

I guess you don't even think that wires can make any difference do you? What about a $4K signal cable or a $8K speaker cable...is that not going to perform any better than a normal radio shack's wire?

I am pretty sure I know your answer but I just want to have some fun

 

[Melon Head]

Cables can make a difference, but on my budget I would rather spend $8000 on building new speakers than spending $8000 on the cables

 

[Stefanoo]

yeah that is understandable. but trust me a 8K is gonna perform a ton of times better and a 3K which performs a ton better than a 1K and so on....but if I had to choose I would spend on gears. If you already have excellent gears then my recommendation would be to get a equally good set of cables to funny enjoy your gears.
Mellon...I knew you acknoledge importance of details..... ...the question was for 5th

 

[buzzforb]

ok, 5th I personally think that audio is not your cup of tea.

If you can't even tell the difference from a good transformer and a mediocre one or not even the difference between a Cambridge and Pass Labs or a ML or a Jeff Rowland then....I don't know ahahah....I am out of words.

I guess you don't even think that wires can make any difference do you? What about a $4K signal cable or a $8K speaker cable...is that not going to perform any better than a normal radio shack's wire?

I am pretty sure I know your answer but I just want to have some fun

Audiophoolery!

 

[Stefanoo]

ahahahah...yeeaaahhh rrriiigggghhhhhhtttt!!!!!
I understand you don't understand!!!

 

[Melon Head]

What have you decided regarding the case?
If you want something that looks nice, go with 2 of EUVL's cases. With 2 of those you can do +/-40 V and 3A bias per channel. That is plenty to make a killer class A amp.

 

[Stefanoo]

I mean I would like to start making a 100W pure class A power amp per channel.
Like a XA100.5

Do you think that Evul's case would be enough? How much is it? Can you link the sale page?
I Went to xen-audio but it doesn't show anything that makes think he sells the enclousure for the F5. It is extremely nice looking though.

 

[Melon Head]

Yeah. No worries, but you need 2 cases

 

[Stefanoo]

Yeah. No worries, but you need 2 cases

I just got an answer from Evul saying that the case he sells is not enough to dissipate 100W Class A.....the case of HiFi 2000 seems suitable but it has to be shipped here...plus I don't really like them so much because they are not sturdy enough.

 

[Stefanoo]

No. You sound like a typical subjectively driven audiophile trying to defend his position.



And this comment is why I think the above.

You're talking absolute rubbish from any engineering standpoint, appearing as if you know nothing about what a transformer actually does.

A power transformer will not alter the way an amplifier sounds, heck it's only connected to the amplifier for a small % of the time anyway as the rectifier diodes only conduct during the peaks of the AC waveform.

If the transformer is responsible for affecting how the amplifier sounds, then .

5th I just want to try one more time and I am sure you will get this one since everybody has played with this at least once with their audio system at one point...

if what you are saying it is true, then you could easily assume that everything behind the transformer doesn't give any contribute at all to the sound.
If that was true, how come the following thing have a significant impact on the sound?
1) better power network cabling (re-wire your AC system in the house
2) better circuit breaker
3) better power chord
4) polarity on your AC outlet
5) AC conditioner as front end for you power system.


This is somehow unexplicable based on your consideration since the AC is connected alternatively 50% of the time, but on the other hand it is 100% connected to your system being directly connected and alternativetly rectified and filtered... i.e. it is just as important as anything else if not more because everything starts from there.

I am sure this thought will help you reflect on specific matters and I am sure you will come out with your own wise conclusions.


Best.

 

[5th element]

ok, 5th I personally think that audio is not your cup of tea.

Yet I'm the one who's been building and designing his own equipment for the better part of 10 years.

If you can't even tell the difference from a good transformer and a mediocre one or not even the difference between a Cambridge and Pass Labs or a ML or a Jeff Rowland then....I don't know ahahah....I am out of words.

I guess you don't even think that wires can make any difference do you? What about a $4K signal cable or a $8K speaker cable...is that not going to perform any better than a normal radio shack's wire?

I am pretty sure I know your answer but I just want to have some fun

I am perfectly happy not being able to tell the difference between one transformer and another, science backs me up on this and I am perfectly happy not being able to tell the difference between some stupid cables too, as once again, science tells me that I wont. I accept that my mind is very capable of thinking something sounds different/better when there's an expectation for something to.

I am not saying that all wires will sound the same, as you do need a certain standard of quality. But if you're using something like this

1694A - BELDEN - CABLE, COAX, 1694A, PER M | Farnell United Kingdom

With plugs like this

PSG01470 - PRO SIGNAL - PLUG, PHONO, GOLD, RED BAND | Farnell United Kingdom

Then you're sorted. The plugs are gold plated so wont tarnish, are physically large enough to accept the large diameter cable and are well constructed so will provide a tight fit around the connector. The wire itself is capable of giving you signal integrity up to several MHz, so wont affect the audio band in anyway whatsoever and is well built/durable.

If you want to tell me why some Valhalla will sound better, and explain it using science, rather then it's price tag and some subjective review, then please go ahead.

Audiophoolery!

Indeed.

ahahahah...yeeaaahhh rrriiigggghhhhhhtttt!!!!!
I understand you don't understand!!!

No you don't understand, you're spewing audiophile rubbish around. All you've basically done in this thread is say, if it costs more then it sounds better. In fact you're so confident in your assertions that you appear to be saying that you don't even need to listen to the equipment to know - it will just sound better because it's more expensive and that it's some top audiophile brand name.

 

[a.wayne]

Speaking from what, experience? I've been building all of my hifi equipment for the last 10 years, I know what parts cost and how much it'd cost roughly to make comparable pieces of equipment. There's nothing special about audiophile bling, the best parts are the well engineered stuff sold at decent prices. The Cambridge Audio power amp is a prime example of this, designed by a very credible engineer that has a no nonsense attitude to design. You end up with an amplifier with excellent performance that's built well for a decent price.

I also recognise that the Musical Fidelity Titan, the AMS 100 and some of the Krell amps actually represent decent enough value for money. A big powerful amplifier, or a big class A amp do demand parts that cost quite a lot. But there's reasonable, when it comes to the cost of high end equipment, then there's absurd, where the value for money is next to nill. You are never going to be able to convince me that the darTZeel NHB458 is worth it's $144,500 price tag, it's a glorified PC case with an amplifier in side. You're not paying for audio engineering, you're paying for an expensive case.

When you turn your hobby into a full time successful business , get back to me on those assumptions ...

You will blush from them ...........

 

[5th element]

1) better power network cabling (re-wire your AC system in the house

Rewiring the house to provide a unique spur just for the hifi system will isolate it better from any grunge thrown into the power line from other surrounding equipment, such as your fridge/freezer, washing machine, Air Con.

2) better circuit breaker

No ty, that wont change anything, unless of course the circuit breaker is under rated and will trip when you power on your amplifier, then you wont hear anything, which I agree, has no chance of sounding good.

3) better power chord

The only thing a better power cord is going to do is offer a lower resistance between it and the wall. This will only make any kind if difference if you are using a very high output power amplifier and you're driving it to the rails - ie clipping. The lower resistance power cable will give you a tiny bit of headroom as the voltage drop across it will be slightly less then that of a thinner cable. But then again, if the power cable is all you're concerned about in the given situation, then changing it isn't really going to fix the problem.

4) polarity on your AC outlet

Instead of me explaining why this wont do anything, can you explain to me why it does?

5) AC conditioner as front end for you power system.

This could filter out grunge on the line, remove a low DC bias from the power lines and isolate each piece of hifi equipment from one another, which will do something, but as to whether or not you can hear it, this depends on how well the equipment is designed that you are powering.