Re: Resistor inductance et al.
1: No need for low inductance, I prefer small carbon resistors
2: See comment of JP
cheers
Oli said:
1: No need for low inductance, I prefer small carbon resistors
2: See comment of JP
cheers
Peter Daniel said:
Peter,
please share a picture or two of this implementation - it sounds really really cool!
It is so typical of you to go right for the legs and stack as well 🙂
Petter
Peter Daniel said:
Just curious, did you use BG only as well ( without the triple bypass) ? Bypassing BG did not bring much here, it became worse when bypassed with ceramic caps....
In fact I stopped bypassing some time ago as I like one good cap better when implemented well. I am talking soundwise this time, not technically/measurements. I even rediscovered using plain BCcomponents electrolytics and I like them.
Electrolytics have made great progress in the last years and although my prejudice against them is hard to get rid off I am starting to judge them right. How difficult it can be to readjust to something one got used to. In the eighties I bypassed every cap I saw and now I am using just one....
Same thing with BG N series. Put 4.7 uF MKT in my preamp to discover ( again ! ) that BG N was better despite being an electrolytic.
To tell the truth, I didn't check BG only, without ceramic bypass. I tried BG with 0.01U first and then added 0.1U and addidng additional cap brought improvement. I still have to try the BG by itself only.
It is also my experience that the single caps sound the best. But here, we deal with digital circuits, so it's harder predict what works and what not. Trying the parts in a circuit is the best way, IMO, to find the best choice.
It is also my experience that the single caps sound the best. But here, we deal with digital circuits, so it's harder predict what works and what not. Trying the parts in a circuit is the best way, IMO, to find the best choice.
Attachments
Sorry Peter but then your findings have devaluated. An opinion can only be formed when both situations have been evaluated. After that the conclusion can be published and advice can be given.
Do you agree ?
We would have to ask millwood about it.😉
I never mentioned if ceramic work or not. I only stated that BG worked the best, and I don't think that ceramics have much to do with that..
I never mentioned if ceramic work or not. I only stated that BG worked the best, and I don't think that ceramics have much to do with that..
How can you say that when you parallel BG with ceramics ?!?!? I am pretty sure BG is even better without the ceramics. Did you test film caps only as well and how did they compare to the BG's with ceramics bypass ?
BTW ceramics do work, but the question is how they add to the sound quality 😉
How about film caps ?
BTW ceramics do work, but the question is how they add to the sound quality 😉
jean-paul said:
Because I compared all the other electrolytics with ceramic as well. Ceramics were always in a circuit. If BG sounds better without ceramics, it's even beter (and BGs are probably more sensitive to paralelling than other caps).
So how they sound with ceramics and how without? What type of ceramics did you use? It's not easy to remove those small SMD caps, so I better be sure my efforts will pay off😉
I tried some ERO MKP, but I didn't like them (comparing to BG N)
Leave them where they are as chances are big that you'll damage things that worked and sounded real fine before. For what, 5 % better sound ? 😉
I just wanted to point out that assuming matters because of empirical and somewhat incomplete ( not meant as negative as it might sound ) tests can be flaky. On the other hand: testing everything can't be done when one wants a life beneath the hobby.
make the best of it,
regards,
Jean-Paul
I just wanted to point out that assuming matters because of empirical and somewhat incomplete ( not meant as negative as it might sound ) tests can be flaky. On the other hand: testing everything can't be done when one wants a life beneath the hobby.
make the best of it,
regards,
Jean-Paul
The following trend seems to be emerging:
This thread appears to have developed quite a bit since I have been away.
The following trend seems to be emerging:
Os-Cons for digital 😎
Black Gates for analogue 😎
No further decoupling required 😎 (I might try some for 66Mhz)
Q. What values for Os-Con and BG?
(I have seen 33uF so far..)
Some people regard BGs as 'snake oil'. I am more open-minded and want to know the 'sound' they offer versus lesser capacitors? e.g. are they more transparent? warmer?
Anyone?
This thread appears to have developed quite a bit since I have been away.
The following trend seems to be emerging:
Os-Cons for digital 😎
Black Gates for analogue 😎
No further decoupling required 😎 (I might try some for 66Mhz)
Q. What values for Os-Con and BG?
(I have seen 33uF so far..)
Some people regard BGs as 'snake oil'. I am more open-minded and want to know the 'sound' they offer versus lesser capacitors? e.g. are they more transparent? warmer?
Anyone?
Snake Oil
If you put them in a circuit and won't here any difference, then they will be a snake oil. But when I listen to them, the difference is bobvious, it's more like veils and colorations are moved away and you are left alone with music only😉. But seriously, regarding BG N, they are more direct and detailed, and I wouldn't say warm but rather neutral. Itried as low as 4.7 for bypass and it worked fine, even on TDA1543 DAC. I'm using now 100u and the sound became more liquid.
In my experience BG were also better in digital circuits (DAC, receiver, input buffer). I subjectively perceive OsCons sound as "adding a sort of sparkling grain to the sound, like someone was sprinkling fine metallic powder into the soundstage"😉
I don't like them in digital circuits either. But it's very easy to test out. Just install some sockets and start inserting different caps, while listening to the sound. It will give you more info than you could gather from a 100 members here😉
If you put them in a circuit and won't here any difference, then they will be a snake oil. But when I listen to them, the difference is bobvious, it's more like veils and colorations are moved away and you are left alone with music only😉. But seriously, regarding BG N, they are more direct and detailed, and I wouldn't say warm but rather neutral. Itried as low as 4.7 for bypass and it worked fine, even on TDA1543 DAC. I'm using now 100u and the sound became more liquid.
In my experience BG were also better in digital circuits (DAC, receiver, input buffer). I subjectively perceive OsCons sound as "adding a sort of sparkling grain to the sound, like someone was sprinkling fine metallic powder into the soundstage"😉
I don't like them in digital circuits either. But it's very easy to test out. Just install some sockets and start inserting different caps, while listening to the sound. It will give you more info than you could gather from a 100 members here😉
Peter:
Isn't your quote a comment that I originally wrote to describe how silver-mica caps sounded to me when these were used in modified Spectrals and various Connoisseurs?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=262664#post262664
Personally, I haven't noticed any major sonic problems when bypassing either digital or analog ICs with Sanyo's OS caps, with or without local film and/or ceramic bypasses added. In fact, recently I've been listening to them in various IC-based amplifier prototypes. I've also been experimenting with other OS-like semisolid-electrolytic caps (different chemistry and construction from Sanyo) which I think I like better, but this doesn't mean I felt that either the SP or SG series of OS caps were in any way bad or unusable. Subjectively the sound with the OS caps was pretty natural - I wouldn't say "lush", but certainly open, detailed, smooth and with zero perceived harshness.
Due to individual differences in schematic design and physical implementation (including pcb and harness design), my observations are that disparities in preference are quite understandable. And of course, personal taste is likewise a major issue.
BTW, to reiterate my overall perspective, I still stand by what I wrote in this post from the same thread.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=261741#post261741
hth, jonathan carr
Isn't your quote a comment that I originally wrote to describe how silver-mica caps sounded to me when these were used in modified Spectrals and various Connoisseurs?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=262664#post262664
Personally, I haven't noticed any major sonic problems when bypassing either digital or analog ICs with Sanyo's OS caps, with or without local film and/or ceramic bypasses added. In fact, recently I've been listening to them in various IC-based amplifier prototypes. I've also been experimenting with other OS-like semisolid-electrolytic caps (different chemistry and construction from Sanyo) which I think I like better, but this doesn't mean I felt that either the SP or SG series of OS caps were in any way bad or unusable. Subjectively the sound with the OS caps was pretty natural - I wouldn't say "lush", but certainly open, detailed, smooth and with zero perceived harshness.
Due to individual differences in schematic design and physical implementation (including pcb and harness design), my observations are that disparities in preference are quite understandable. And of course, personal taste is likewise a major issue.
BTW, to reiterate my overall perspective, I still stand by what I wrote in this post from the same thread.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=261741#post261741
hth, jonathan carr
Peter Daniel said:
I would start by using a low Z "ground plane", or is that hiding
underneath the PCB????.
Terry
Hi all
Apologies for being the naive newb barging into this fertile thread😀
I am just about to embark on assembling my first 8412/1543 based nos dac.
This is intended for portable use so battery power ,optical input,
ldo regs are being implemented.
My question is regarding ground planes.
I am considering a v reg for each part of the circuit bar the op-amps.[2 for the 8412,1 for the 1543 and 1 for the ToRX176]
As I am going to be using point to point wiring at this stage , I am able to attach my tiny regs[reg113] and decoupling caps directly to the pins of the chips.
Areas where multiple pins need grounding I had intended to
use shaped pieces of copper shim to create small ground planes.
As the components will be as close too each other as practical for
reasons of producing a compact unit, I wondered whether
trying to achieve large surface area planes was really essential?
Cheers
Setmenu
Apologies for being the naive newb barging into this fertile thread😀
I am just about to embark on assembling my first 8412/1543 based nos dac.
This is intended for portable use so battery power ,optical input,
ldo regs are being implemented.
My question is regarding ground planes.
I am considering a v reg for each part of the circuit bar the op-amps.[2 for the 8412,1 for the 1543 and 1 for the ToRX176]
As I am going to be using point to point wiring at this stage , I am able to attach my tiny regs[reg113] and decoupling caps directly to the pins of the chips.
Areas where multiple pins need grounding I had intended to
use shaped pieces of copper shim to create small ground planes.
As the components will be as close too each other as practical for
reasons of producing a compact unit, I wondered whether
trying to achieve large surface area planes was really essential?
Cheers
Setmenu
The beef I have with using Black Gate caps is I have never found any engineering specifications on these caps. They might be good as the OSCON styles but where are their data sheets. Anyone have a URL for them.
As for BG for coupling, I have a hard time buying that because of my experiences with normal electrolytic types.
As for BG for coupling, I have a hard time buying that because of my experiences with normal electrolytic types.
jcarr said:
Yes, it is. That's why I used quatation marks and a smile😉. While it may be not exactly the describtion of the sound of OsCons (to me), this is what first comes to mind. And I really like that expression. The OsCons I was using have no grade marked on them, just the value and are sourced from Chinese seller.
It is hard for me to believe that all of them sound that way, as I noticed that others use those caps and are quite content. To me, their sound is dull and boring.
Me too!
I did try some recently though as I needed a 10u for the input of a bipolar phono stage, and didn't have space for films. In my defence I didn't pay for the BG's, they were kindly donated to me 😉
They sounded absolutely shite for about 3 weeks.
Now they sound fantastic, quite astonishingly so bearing in mind I really wanted to hate them. I also wonder what would happen if I turned the phono stage off for any period of time?
Anyway, I now view them as a tool in the armoury, for times when I have to use a 'lytic. I've never tried them in decoupling apps though (I'm not going to either...).
Andy.
setmenu said:
While large ground planes may be beneficial, I don't think they are issential. Here's my protoype DAC borad (TDA1543) done p2p, without any ground planes, just thick wires for ground bars, and the performance is splendid. I will build the same cuircuit using a proper PCB and I'll be able to compare performance, but I doubt it will be any improvement.
The other side is one big ground plane, but it has only one point connection with main ground, so it acts as shield only between components and p2p wires, nothing else is connected to that plain.
Attachments
Hi Peter
Thank you for your reply.
The p2p method using only wire will sure make life easier at this
stage.
I am at present fiddling around with some very,very tiny SOT packaged regs, trying to find a way of best mounting them on the bottom of the bypass caps...
Oscons in fact..
The differing opinions in 'best approach' tend to make my electronics newb head spin
It is all fascinating none the less😀
Have have enough parts to build several dacs so this looks like
a nice project to become another one of my select obsessive
compulsive disorders
Cheers
Setmenu
Thank you for your reply.
The p2p method using only wire will sure make life easier at this
stage.
I am at present fiddling around with some very,very tiny SOT packaged regs, trying to find a way of best mounting them on the bottom of the bypass caps...
Oscons in fact..
The differing opinions in 'best approach' tend to make my electronics newb head spin
It is all fascinating none the less😀
Have have enough parts to build several dacs so this looks like
a nice project to become another one of my select obsessive
compulsive disorders
Cheers
Setmenu
- Status
- Not open for further replies.