I like big woofers and I can not lie
You other brothers can't deny
That when a speaker moves into your itty bitty place
And a round cone in your face
You get sprung
Wanna pull up tough
Cuz you notice that woofer was stuffed
Deep in the baffle it’s wearing
I'm hooked and I can't stop staring
Oh, baby I wanna get with ya
And take your picture
My homeboys tried to warn me
But that woofer you got
Make Me so horney
Ooh, motor with low inductance
You say you’ll sing with no reluctance
Well use me use me cuz you aint that average groupy
Sir Mix-a-lot gets bass
At my home, woofers start at 15" and get crossed out above 100Hz.
You other brothers can't deny
That when a speaker moves into your itty bitty place
And a round cone in your face
You get sprung
Wanna pull up tough
Cuz you notice that woofer was stuffed
Deep in the baffle it’s wearing
I'm hooked and I can't stop staring
Oh, baby I wanna get with ya
And take your picture
My homeboys tried to warn me
But that woofer you got
Make Me so horney
Ooh, motor with low inductance
You say you’ll sing with no reluctance
Well use me use me cuz you aint that average groupy
Sir Mix-a-lot gets bass
At my home, woofers start at 15" and get crossed out above 100Hz.
Admitting my ignorance here; but is the argument about BSC not at odds with the OP's original question?
I would have said that bigger is almost always better, but get too big and you get into the realm of 4-way systems.
Interestingly I have a book here published 1966
I have the 21st printing dated 1986
" How to build speaker enclosures" by Alexis Badmaieff & Don Davis
This book makes a very convincing argument for dual 15inch woofers or quad 12inch woofers as being the minimum necessary for reasonable quality bass.
Even in the early days mention is made of the WAF and the need to make the enclosures a "pretty" and stylish piece of furniture.
Featured are plans for the "Jensen Imperial" cabinet, no WAF there
I would have said that bigger is almost always better, but get too big and you get into the realm of 4-way systems.
Interestingly I have a book here published 1966
I have the 21st printing dated 1986
" How to build speaker enclosures" by Alexis Badmaieff & Don Davis
This book makes a very convincing argument for dual 15inch woofers or quad 12inch woofers as being the minimum necessary for reasonable quality bass.
Even in the early days mention is made of the WAF and the need to make the enclosures a "pretty" and stylish piece of furniture.
Featured are plans for the "Jensen Imperial" cabinet, no WAF there
This is ceratinly not the case in a small room if multiple subs are used, which is the more modern view of the requirements for good bass.
Moondog,
I have that book somewhere myself. The problem is that when it was written, and even at the date of the last reprint, there really were no high excursion dedicated subwoofer drivers generally available. The NHT subwoofer, followed by the Shiva, etc., at the beginning of the 1990's really launched the use of subwoofers for home use. The use of a dedicated driver for the lowest octave makes a lot of sense, although contrary to what some have mentioned, Baffle Step Compensation would not be a factor in the deep bass regions as the wavelengths are so long that it's not usually a consideration.
The biggest problem with deep bass within a home situation is with the room modes (eigenmodes) where there are areas that have nulls and others that have a positive pressure at a certain frequency. Dr. Geddes has championed the use of distributed bass, which entails the use of multiple subs distributed around the room to even out these modes.
If possible, use many (5?) big drivers, each in a separate cabinet, placed around the room.
[Edit: In answer to the OP's question about bass drivers, all things being equal, then Yes, bigger is better.]
Best Regards,
TerryO
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true that long excursion subs are great, but sometimes I think that big woofers moving a short distance are more realistic, especially on string instruments like double bass and cello.
If I had the space I would use both multiple big woofers and multiple subs ( 3 isn't enough sometimes ) so I agree that 5 is probably optimum
If I had the space I would use both multiple big woofers and multiple subs ( 3 isn't enough sometimes ) so I agree that 5 is probably optimum
I'd agree with that, especially with using both dedicated high excursion subs and large midbasses, where both can do their best.
If you don't dual use 2ch/HT and don't have a collection of the rare music with a lot of deep LF, then in many cases you can forgo the subs.
Thank you. I have been thinking about DIY speakers and using a 12" woofer. I forsee some problems with using a 12". I sit only about 2.5meters from my speakers, using big woofers means big cabinets which in turn means the tweeter and the mid will be a long way from the woofer. I'm afraid this will have a negative influence on the sound. Bigger cabinets also mean less free space around the cabinet. Also there is a WAF issue and the cost, a good 12" woofers is about twice as expensive as an 8" woofer.
Here is a speaker that uses a 12" woofer in a cabinet with slightly different dimensions than usual for this size of driver. The design is built to be used with subwoofers. But, there are several 10" subwoofers that can be loaded in a sealed 1' cube box with a little EQ added to fill the bottom end quite nicely.
There is no reason that such a speaker system could not work well in your listening space.
The Planetarium Gammas: high-output satellites
Nice discussion here. Sometimes I think about different parts of "sound". Could we get more musical enjoyment of big woofered and sensitive speakers although their FR could be "worse" than small speakers and eq'd subwoofers? Which part on "sound" matters the most in listening contents of records? (I don't speak of watching curves with laptop 😉 )
It would be nice to find design to sensitive speakers which works well in small room. Maybe sensitive 6,5" fullrange as midrange + ribbon treble, then sensitive would be enough for 2 x 10-12" woofers.
It would be nice to find design to sensitive speakers which works well in small room. Maybe sensitive 6,5" fullrange as midrange + ribbon treble, then sensitive would be enough for 2 x 10-12" woofers.
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Big woofers do not inherently have "worse" FRs then small woofers, is that what you are saying?
As for your 3-way suggestion..I have that. Neopro5i ribbon, PHL1120 midbass, TD12S woofer for the bass (sealed box tuned to 60Hz).
IMO "bass" needs to be covered by two drivers, a very large sub-bass and a faster smaller mid-bass.
Otherwise the compromises are too many.
Otherwise the compromises are too many.
Definitely, we should define what we are talking about.
Bass in mains only needs to go down to 60Hz IMO since I believe all setups require a subwoofer that handles everything < 80 Hz.
But I have seen and heard the AV15X and it does from 20Hz to 500Hz with amazing ease. A very impressive driver. I do believe the Salk HT4s used it too.
I would admit to being a FANBOY!! 😀 The measurements show John (owner/driver builder) makes great drivers. I like that they are hand built in the US too, someone has to keep jobs here 😉
I am looking at the TD15X as a serious replacement for my JBL 2235H drivers. The JBLs are not in the best of condition and should be reconed at some data. The cost of the recone is almost as much as a pair of the TD15Xs.
The TD15X has greater xmax and a much lower inductance.
I am not so sure that has to be the case in every situation. I am not aware of any studio reference speakers that do that (use a sub) nor any studios that employ a sub as standard practice during the mixing and mastering phase, but I have been out of the studio circles for a while now.
What are you going to use it with? What range?
The inductance on the TD series is something John prides himself on.
Right now my 3-way crosses at 400 Hz and down, down, down, as far as I can go, which is an F3 of about 33 Hz in a 6.5 cubic foot vented cabinet.
The 3-way is a pretty efficient system at about 93 dBm/w/m.
I apologize if it was posted but did you post your mid-range, tweeter combo?
The TD12X or TD12S should give you what you want.
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