Well, here we go around in circles again. Others who have posted here would disagree with you. I'm certainly not taking sides in this. Would just like to get to the best answer without trying too many things that don't lead anywhere.
So, what would you recommend for adding some bass without is being a problem in such a small room? I have some similar reservations about a large bass module and am still looking for the best solution to fit my room.
I'd move up to the Madoline speakers (6'') since it's the same designer and driver series but tune lower (eg 1 cu ft tune to about 38 Hz). Does your AVR have pre-out? If that's the case it maybe worth it to try your current speakers with a better amp with a return policy (the LSA amp I mentioned above or something similar) to see if that helps since it seems to be the least effort.
Good luck!
Good luck!
So... You're saying that a DAC and preamp modify the signal passing through them more than a speaker and a room?
In the end you will have to stop thinking about what we all say and try some things out for yourself. Then if you find something you like you will have an idea in what direction to go. Or you can just give up and accept having things the way they are.
Let me answer my own question with evidence.
Below is a frequency response plot of a speaker, a good one. Which is not important, they ALL do this kind of thing. The measurement was taken from a review, and was done in an anechoic space, so you see just the speaker not the room.
Then next graph is the frequency response of a very old pro-sumer PCM recording device from the early 1980s, the PCM-F1 (that's the noise at the bottom).
And finally, a FR graph of a mid 2010s vintage ADC/DAC - a Motu 4Pre - connected output to input via analog I/O. Note the very much magnified scale.
Now, granted, this is "only" frequency response, though that is the single most audible parameter. Everybody can hear it. But I can easily show any other paramter you like, and the speaker will be the worst offender...right up until we look at the speaker in a room.
Now...do we really need to elevate preamps (which BTW, have about as little modification as a DAC) and DAC to the "magic" device that fixes everything?
If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please post it here.
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Well try this little experiment if there is a shop that sells higher priced audio gear anywhere near you. Go and listen to some of their gear and if you like the sound. Now note how many of them are using basic level AVR receivers to play music with.
Interesting. How do you characterize correlation of frequency response or any other parameter that you personally have measured with perceived size of soundstage?
I listen to simple music at low volume and the biggest soundstage I had was with poorly measured single driver driven by small power 2A3 SE DHT. But don't think the combination would work for complex classical music.
I don't need convincing that a high-priced audio amplifier might sound better than an AVR. At least in some cases. But that wasn't the question here.
The question, as expressed in the title and expanded upon in the first post, is which change would give me an increase in the size of the sound stage - a new speaker or a new amplifier.
And as you can tell if you read through the responses there is disagreement among people here as to which would be better to do that. There are also some posts that claim neither should come before room treatment.
So, simply going into stores to listen to amplifiers would really not help answer my question.
In the early 80s, consumer CD players were terrible. Aweful actually... and the CDs that were coming out lacked depth and had a brittle sounds. At first we were impressed by the lack of noise and how loud we could play without the dreaded LP background noise. But eventually we started to notice it was rather fatiguing to listen to them. As technology went forward, true, the sound got better but in '83 it was terrible.
I bought a 2nd gen Yamaha... paid a lot of cash for it... eventually I bought a used Linn LP12. THAT made a huge difference over my Dual.
P =I^2 x R.
So, as resistance goes down the current draw goes up by the square. My Maggies are low impedance, they need to be fed...
I actually have well over 20 amps at home... all the way from the '74 Marantz to a year old NCore NC252MP and a NuForce MCA-20. And an ARC D70 MkII in between... plus the obligatory A5, F5, a bunch of SS AB, some weird ICE amps, more NuForce, NAD, etc... every one of them is a very good amp, I have no patience otherwise.
Actually the weirder ones are the Teac Reference Amps. Strange amps. I just had to get them but, musically, well, they sit on the shelf. Wanna buy some?
Today I plugged my fully rebuilt Marantz SR2325 to the Maggies... last Friday I plugged the fully rebuilt Sansui G-7500. Neither one of them can run the Maggies. There is simply no bass, no pace... Many amplifiers are rated to drive 8 ohms. period... and can not drive low impedances because they can not draw enough current through their power supply.
Mind you, both the Marantz 2325 and Sansui G-3500 are very fine examples of their era. Yet, they can not quite drive modern low impedance, low efficiency speakers.
I should note that both of those amps can drive my '77 ADS L810s to more than satisfactory levels... drawing far less power. In the Rat Shack power meters, listening to the same music as about the same levels (by seat of the pants) I see the 810s drawing 1 watt, while the Maggies are at 10 watts....
So, we need to take the efficiency of the load.
My A5 monos are rated at less than the Marantz yet they drive the Maggies quite well. There is no "lack" of bass at lower levels... while the Marantz needs to be cranked up to have any bass at all... weird. The Sansui, no way Jose...
Perhaps what we need is a measurement for current draw through the output transistors and power bandwidth vs. frequency. The power ratings (yes, I remember IHF ) are at a given point, I would like to see a set of waterfalls, frequency vs linearity, for a set of power outputs and impedances.
BTW, it seems like today's AVRs are back to IHF ratings: 1000 watts at 1Khz at 10% THD at 8 ohms at 25F with three fans blowing on the heat sinks.
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That's for sure. You need convincing of the reality that no amp will help your soundstage...a task clearly strongly impeded by bias.
Sigh. OK, I give. Speaker. An amp does not significantly modify the signal, speakers do.
Yup. Anyone suggesting otherwise should supply data to back up their claims.
Correct! Do not waste your time.
The perception of soundstage dimension is psychoacoustic. Without writing a book (again), the basic principles are to attempt to get the sound from each speaker to the corresponding ear without reflections, and with only direct sound. Speaker directivity is a factor, and because reflections come from the room and thingns in it, speaker placement is a strong factor, and because you can't ever deal with every reflection by placement, room treatment that addresses at least the strong early reflections is key. Each speaker should be in as identical an acoustic environment as possible. You don't want one near a wall and the other not. A speaker with smooth on axis and off axis response is also very important, but then, that's how you make a good sounding speaker in any room. Then, listening position should be carefully chosen.
There are no amplifier parameters that can affect soundstage unless the channels are not matched in response, level, and phase.
Unless you have very efficient speakers, the 2A3 SE is about as flea-powered as it gets. It's true the average power needed for listening is under 10 watts, but if the speakers are inefficient there's this little headroom problem that the 2A3 SE can't quite manage.
Have you given the thought of selling the stereo, learning how to play the ukulele and reading books?
We're not in the 1980s last I checked. Point?
Yes, that would be basic electronics.
And that would not be. Your Maggies have an impedance curve like every speaker. They might dip low at some frequency, probably likely. If then dip so low, and you play so loud, that the amp can't supply adequate current into that load (power) the amp will distort. It's either a bad speaker design or a bad amplifier design. Or both. Again...point? Other than the sweeping generality above, there's nothing here to disagree with. Perhaps you could have said, "they need to be driven" rather than fed, but it probably doesn't matter.
Of course, efficiency is very important. So is distance to the LP. And the number of speakers. In fact, if you have all of that plus the rated amp power you can back into the peak SPL the system is capable of. But I'm not sure what the rest of the above is trying to say. I'd caution a bit against the seat-of-the pants part, especially today when we can all have free SPL meters with peak, average, LUFS, everything. Smart phones...etc.
All subjective, sorry.
Well...at least measure something.
I have not seen an AVR specified like that. Here's a sample off of the Denon web site for the AVR-660H, a current $499 entry-level AVR:
Number of Power Amps: 5
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive): 75W
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 0.7% 2ch Drive): 100W
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive): 150W
Looks petty honest to me. Don't know what you're on about.
The thing is, high-end audio stores don't sell AVRs. So, you won't see them there at all. Ever. A cross-over store that dabbles in high-end might also sell an AVR, but they won't demo a stereo system with it because even though perfecty adequat, an AVR is all about 5.1+ channels, and that's what they're sold for. That doesn't make them bad.
