A reputable brand like Cambridge Audio, NAD, Rotel, Vincent, Denon, Rega, Cyrus, Audiolab, etc. I suggest you try before you buy, either get a loaner or take your speakers to a store. You'll be staggered how much more enjoyable music becomes played through a decent stereo amplifier, not an AVR.
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ClassicalFan,
Is there anyway to audition some constant directivity designs? Jeff Bagby designed the Fusion 12 for DIYSG, maybe look out for a pair of those. Similarly, you could try the Bagby-designed Helix dome MTM loudspeakers also at DIYSG to get an idea of what an MTM design with higher sensitivity brings to the table in your room. Jeff said (shortly before Covid claimed him) that the Helix dome loudspeaker was the best sounding design he did for DIYSG.
Is there anyway to audition some constant directivity designs? Jeff Bagby designed the Fusion 12 for DIYSG, maybe look out for a pair of those. Similarly, you could try the Bagby-designed Helix dome MTM loudspeakers also at DIYSG to get an idea of what an MTM design with higher sensitivity brings to the table in your room. Jeff said (shortly before Covid claimed him) that the Helix dome loudspeaker was the best sounding design he did for DIYSG.
Changing amp can improve some things but not spaciousness. That AVR probably has the direct mode in which does not modify the signal at all so you can easily bypass all "bad" electronic except volume control. Dipole loudspeakers will give you more spaciousness then other,or, if room is totally symmetrical omni loudspeaker (as I have been told, never had a chance to listen)
Here are some practical papers to read and try
Here are some practical papers to read and try
As an addendum to my post above, here is a link to the Helix dome MTM kit, plus the flat pack enclosure. The supply for these is probably rather small. The radiation pattern of an MTM is different than that of a cone and dome two-way so it’s worth exploring since you already like the designer.
So, are you concerned that sound has to spread and form a 'field' before you can get good imaging?
(BTW, There is too much indiscriminate talk about fields on this thread. Near field, far field, are terms that are often misused.)
Every instrument and voice has harmonics which should all stay within their envelope. Having an XO that does not preserve phase and the harmonics start falling out of the envelope. This subtle timing is even more critical with soundstage/image.bThis can be heard as long as issues with other things do not mask it.
The information has to be on the medium, and few really do.
Even with modest amps, i am just now trying out an ACAmini (sitting on my SIT-3). Both, if present on the source, produce good soundstage/image with the Alpair 5.2eN in µMar-KenSET. No XOs above the upper bass. Seamlessness of the speakers seems to play a significant role in the soundstage/image, if i swap in stock A5.2 it still produces a decent image/soundstage but not as near 3D.
Simple seems to be important, you want to lose as little of the information from the source as possible.
dave
Maybe if you want to play loud. My 3" does a superb job at image/soundstage.
I see that a number of class AB amps have been recommended. And a SET.
The small bits of information you need to preserved to reproduce any image/soundstage. A simple class A ampfier (like most SETs) will do really well with the small pieces of information. These often tend to fall into the range where a Class A/B amplifier crosses from “class A” to class B and the GM of the device halves. If nothing else is masking it you can hear this. It can be easily masked by other issues.
SIMPLE.
dave
I'm still trying to figure out what OP means by "sound stage". Help me out with some definitions here...?
One guess is audio 'holography', but instead of life-size it's miniatures like a 3d movie experience on a screen that's too small.
If so, then that could be a consequence of "pin-point imaging" and predictable room echoes providing cues that reinforce speaker location rather than a virtual image.
More directivity could help reduce off-axis and reflected gain. A speaker project with that in mind could be something like a 2-way with a larger woofer and dipole full-range. The dipole pattern could reduce some of the off-axis energy. The reverse polarity backwave could also make the wall distance harder to resolve with echo location, giving more ambience.
One guess is audio 'holography', but instead of life-size it's miniatures like a 3d movie experience on a screen that's too small.
If so, then that could be a consequence of "pin-point imaging" and predictable room echoes providing cues that reinforce speaker location rather than a virtual image.
More directivity could help reduce off-axis and reflected gain. A speaker project with that in mind could be something like a 2-way with a larger woofer and dipole full-range. The dipole pattern could reduce some of the off-axis energy. The reverse polarity backwave could also make the wall distance harder to resolve with echo location, giving more ambience.
To me "sound stage" is the reproduced representation of the recorded event ... it's venue size, the "bands" compliment, like that.
The OP'er being a "classicalfan" enjoys the dynamic, large sound/power of an orchestra .... but is not satisfied with the sound stage being produced by a 6" driver. Probably great w/girl and guitar stuff.
My take anyway.
The OP'er being a "classicalfan" enjoys the dynamic, large sound/power of an orchestra .... but is not satisfied with the sound stage being produced by a 6" driver. Probably great w/girl and guitar stuff.
My take anyway.
Soundstage or sound stage is a subjective term that means different things depending on who is using it. In general it has to do with some form of perception of dimension in the perceived phantom image of a sound system. Perception involves both actual acoustic input, but also the brain's post-processing to generate the actual total perception. The brain's post processing is also not just about the real acoustic input, but I hate to get too deep into that one.
Other than that, who knows.
Other than that, who knows.
venue size is captured mainly in subtle sub-bass. your loudspeakers have 'tiny' 5,25-inch woofers that are simply not capable of reproducing this kind of acoustic information. If that's what the OP is talking about I would get a subwoofer first. A well-integrated sub not only makes your soundstage quite a lot bigger in all dimensions it also provides more 'air' and timbre to your music.
Unlike what many replies here, an amplifier can have a big effect on a soundstage. Most mid-range AVR's like your Denon sound flat. Nowadays you can build or buy a kit for a good quality class D amp for not much money. Many of them will most probably have a much better soundstage than your Denon.
In a small room, or in any room that's not perfect a good parametric equalizer can help a lot as well. Soundstage is also a matter of the right tonal balance. If that is disturbed by a not-so-good speaker placement you can cure it to some extent with eq be it in the form of a DSP processor or in a software player.
My bedroom is about half the size of your room and I'm using a pair of speakers in there with 4,5-inch woofers in them and placed against the sidewalls which is a far from ideal placement. I use a small Rel quake2 subwoofer with them. With proper eq (eq, not room correction) and proper sub adjustment, the soundstage is phenomenal. disconnect the sub and it all collapses, disengage the eq and it collapses even further. The sound is not as wide and deep in size as my living room or office system (you also need bigger mid-woofers for that, yes size matters, a lot in fact) but placement and pinpoint imaging are just as good. This system sounds like sh*t when moved to the bigger room though, small, thin, shrill and dynamically restricted. It's all a question of loudspeaker room integration but one thing is very important, proper low-end extension into the low 30's, even, or maybe even especially, when you think you don't need it for the music you listen to. Get a decent cheap second-hand subwoofer for around $100,- or so and start to experiment with it, you'll be surprised.
But the first thing is to determine what exactly is 'soundstage' for you. For some people it is pinpoint imaging, for others it is some kind of holographic cloud, for others, it is a wall and room-filling sound. Some want it to be very deep and distant, others think 'in your face is more realistic. Soundstage is also a matter of microdynamics and long decay of notes that define acoustics. If that's what soundstage is for you a better amp can help most certainly.
Unlike what many replies here, an amplifier can have a big effect on a soundstage. Most mid-range AVR's like your Denon sound flat. Nowadays you can build or buy a kit for a good quality class D amp for not much money. Many of them will most probably have a much better soundstage than your Denon.
In a small room, or in any room that's not perfect a good parametric equalizer can help a lot as well. Soundstage is also a matter of the right tonal balance. If that is disturbed by a not-so-good speaker placement you can cure it to some extent with eq be it in the form of a DSP processor or in a software player.
My bedroom is about half the size of your room and I'm using a pair of speakers in there with 4,5-inch woofers in them and placed against the sidewalls which is a far from ideal placement. I use a small Rel quake2 subwoofer with them. With proper eq (eq, not room correction) and proper sub adjustment, the soundstage is phenomenal. disconnect the sub and it all collapses, disengage the eq and it collapses even further. The sound is not as wide and deep in size as my living room or office system (you also need bigger mid-woofers for that, yes size matters, a lot in fact) but placement and pinpoint imaging are just as good. This system sounds like sh*t when moved to the bigger room though, small, thin, shrill and dynamically restricted. It's all a question of loudspeaker room integration but one thing is very important, proper low-end extension into the low 30's, even, or maybe even especially, when you think you don't need it for the music you listen to. Get a decent cheap second-hand subwoofer for around $100,- or so and start to experiment with it, you'll be surprised.
But the first thing is to determine what exactly is 'soundstage' for you. For some people it is pinpoint imaging, for others it is some kind of holographic cloud, for others, it is a wall and room-filling sound. Some want it to be very deep and distant, others think 'in your face is more realistic. Soundstage is also a matter of microdynamics and long decay of notes that define acoustics. If that's what soundstage is for you a better amp can help most certainly.
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I respectfully disagree with everything above, in particular the highlighted sections. I do agree a sub is a worthwile addition, no so sure "cheap" is a target parameter worth shooting at, but for most definitions of "soundstage", adding low end won't add width, depth or height. A parametric, software or hardware, is useless unless measurements are made and responded to.
However, this:
"But the first thing is to determine what exactly is 'soundstage' for you. For some people it is pinpoint imaging, for others it is some kind of holographic cloud, for others, it is a wall and room-filling sound. Some want it to be very deep and distant, others think 'in your face is more realistic."
...is important.
Without reading all of the replies, I'd say amp. An AVR is just not going to be a good stereo amp. Your speakers are probably fine. If you want a taste without breaking the bank look at one of the many class D amps, you'd be surprised at what they can do, although they don't do all of it well. For soundstage though directly heated triodes will kill all the others IMHO. Single ended or push-pull. 300B, 2A3, 6B4G or even the big ones like an 845. They get expensive though, even to build them yourself. I have my 6B4G p-p amp playing right now in the next room and I can hear the soundstage.
I have a smallish room myself. The largest difference was adding acoustic treatments. Helped with imaging, especially placement. Drapes on the windows as well. After that speaker placement had the biggest effect.
I do have to add that the Sony VFet from Nelson had quite the effect as well. Still can’t define that though, sorry.
I do have to add that the Sony VFet from Nelson had quite the effect as well. Still can’t define that though, sorry.
Well, cheap is not a goal but it was a piece of advice to start experimenting without breaking the bank. I have experimented quite a lot with small loudspeakers and subwoofers and even with some crappy bad-sounding subs, I was able to transform the soundstage of small speakers into a whole lot bigger soundstage with more air, etc. It sounded crap, booming cabinet walls and the like that's for sure but most certainly bigger, wider, deeper. If experiments like that give you a feeling of what it is you are actually looking for you can replace this crappy sub with a serious contender.
I friend of mine had a Kef LS50 setup for a while in his rather small office and one thing he always liked to demonstrate was the LS50 with and without a sub (well actually with a 150Hz crossover, not a pure sub) and everyone was amazed what the addition of a sub and some eq could do compared to the LS50 alone full range (yes with measurements but that's so common nowadays it hardly needs mentioning) It soundstage becomes twice as wide and deep that way. In my small bedroom system, I have exactly the same experience. A loudspeaker that does not have any decent output below 70Hz like the LS50's really does fall short in recreating big venues. These are small speakers with a midbass hump to make them sound bigger than they are but they are missing acoustics information captured in the sub-bass. Of course, you are free to disagree but my question is, have you tried? If soundstage means big sound to you you are never going to get it with small loudspeakers. If soundstage means something else to you then it won't help you much. And of course, there are much more variables in play here but the question of the OP was how to improve his current system to get better soundstage, not to start from scratch.
And yes, decay of notes is something that helps a lot in sound staging. A lot of cheap amplifiers are 'cutting off' the sound too early. it is the little reverb information that also defines acoustics, micro detail, 'air', and microdynamics. It is all related. One of the main differences between bad and good amplifiers is exactly that, the ability to resolve the whole length of a note to let it extend to the point where it dies out itself, not to a point where the amplifier decides to stop. , to let the tiny little room reverb come through. Sorry English is not my native so I don't know how to describe this exactly but I hope you catch my drift.
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