Take a look at the x-over costs and then report back. Zaph's is not expensive.
I'm struggling with the same thing: I've already got the RS180's. I think Ill drop the 27TBFC/G into the "Modula" x-over to see how it fits. This will be in a TL with an f3 around 38-39 Hz.
If I didn't have the RS180's already, I'd look into an mtm TL using the L18. It has a lower fs: 33 Hz.
Zaph's x-over for the L18 / TBFC/G combo
are the xt 18 vifa drivers better than the xg18 vifa?
some say that the cone material makes a difference,between the 2 is it worth the extra mooney?😕
some say that the cone material makes a difference,between the 2 is it worth the extra mooney?😕
I've been looking into the graphs of the tweeter mishmash.
It would seem to me, that if crossed high/steep enough, the Seas 22TAFG is the one to beat. Above about 3 kHz the HD plot looks better than the TBFCG. I'm not considering the 6600 (which arguably looks slightly better), as SS is experiencing production problems with the unit and it is not available now. The slight rise of the response curve at the top of the audible range probably isn't very disturbing. The CSD looks very good too.
To me, it seems the perfect choice in a 3-way with a high crossover point.
Why hasn't this driver been getting more attention than is has?
It would seem to me, that if crossed high/steep enough, the Seas 22TAFG is the one to beat. Above about 3 kHz the HD plot looks better than the TBFCG. I'm not considering the 6600 (which arguably looks slightly better), as SS is experiencing production problems with the unit and it is not available now. The slight rise of the response curve at the top of the audible range probably isn't very disturbing. The CSD looks very good too.
To me, it seems the perfect choice in a 3-way with a high crossover point.
Why hasn't this driver been getting more attention than is has?
You are right 😉
I am using the 22TAFG in a 18cm / 2-Way Combi with Waveguide.
But for me, I think there is no audible difference between -60dB and -80dB distortion. The problem in a 2-way (and also some 3-ways) is the XO Frequency, which has to be as low as possible (for several reasons).
And the silver membrane does look UGLY 😀
Mfg
Stefan
I am using the 22TAFG in a 18cm / 2-Way Combi with Waveguide.
But for me, I think there is no audible difference between -60dB and -80dB distortion. The problem in a 2-way (and also some 3-ways) is the XO Frequency, which has to be as low as possible (for several reasons).
And the silver membrane does look UGLY 😀
Mfg
Stefan
But... You said: "the best performer in the group is the older Vifa D26NC55" I'm confused, is the Vifa the best, or not?Zaph said:
Talk about raised from the dead!Critofur, please read the entire thread for context. Zaph explained the following about that comment on 08-08-2005!
Now, we should pay our respects to this thread and let it go on to a better place.
sdclc126 said:
Stiffness is a function of material properties and geometry. The stiffest cones I can conceive of probably have a honeycomb structure.
You know I love tests and tests are great (this is not sarcasm), but to predict ones own musical enjoyment from a test or series of tests is kind of hard, I would imagine. Also theoretically there must be an infinite number of distortion tests. I don't know what test(s) address this, but playing many sounds at once is what a driver does.
You could have a driver that has low distortion in the upper midrange, but you use it down to 40 Hz, which also has low distortion numbers. But when playing bass and upper midrange it has awful distortion in the midrange and/or bass. In fact, another driver that has the same types of distortion in the bass, but worse distortion in the midrange – when played separately – now has better distortion in midrange when playing the sounds together. This could be a result of linear distortion or non-linear or both.
Please disregard this part, if it doesn't make any sense due to my lack of understanding of the different types of distortion tests.
Then there is the matter of perception. For example, maybe there are people who dislike multi-ways because they are really sensitive to the difference in sound or phase or position compared to a full-range. I believe, if I had to guess, and I do cause I just don't know, that the testing that is out there is enough to prove that you can't tell the difference between a full-range and a multi-way, at a certain distance, but it might not be. Maybe tests show that there is a difference, I don't know.
The more complex something is the less tests will tell you about what you can expect in your final application.
Also I love science and science is great (also not sarcasm), but it is always changing and there hasn’t been a scientist - even in the most fundamental of sciences, physics - that has been 100% correct about anything. And usually what they thought was simple or not influenced by other foreseen forces, actually was influenced by things they could not imagine.
God, what a waste of time, lol
You know if I just spend the time that I spent writing this working I could just buy those expensive speakers that "testing" has shown are next to worthless.
Or maybe if we spent the time we spend on building audio trying to change the monetary system we could all afford those poorly performing expensive speakers. Either that or the speakers would be cost even more of our capital. I don’t know which, none of the economists can agree, lol; just like the audio designers, really makes you think, doesn’t it, lol.
Man, I wish I could delete the post above. I was trying to make 2 main points, but I don't think they came across well at all, lol 
is there anyone who is not satisfied with 27tbfcg tweeter, or it's just me?
I use my pair in a car, with 5mfd cap and 0.3mh inductor for crossover.
these tweeters' sound bothers me, they just don't play loud.
even at moderate volume they are a little irritating with some music.
they are not defective, I did distortion measurements.
I was much happier with usher soft dome tweeters.
I use my pair in a car, with 5mfd cap and 0.3mh inductor for crossover.
these tweeters' sound bothers me, they just don't play loud.
even at moderate volume they are a little irritating with some music.
they are not defective, I did distortion measurements.
I was much happier with usher soft dome tweeters.
Just read the link on Zaph's site:
http://www.klippel.de/download/Nonlin/klippel, Loudspeaker nonlinearities - causes and symptoms.pdf
I think Klippel stated it much better than me:
"The stimulus should contains at least two tones at the same time to measure
intermodulation distortion which are generated by the multiplication of two
different state signals (e.g. displacement and current). The frequency of the
tones and the sweeping techniques are critical to get results which are easy to
explain. The paper suggests two techniques (sweeping the bass or the voice
tone while keeping the other tone at a constant frequency)"
and the even more obvious:
"Nonlinear distortion measurements should be performed at different amplitude
levels."
This is also interesting, I suppose
http://140.174.80.168/distortion_perception.htm
A lot of this is basic logic. I would agree with almost every statement Zaph writes, that I can understand 😉 and have come to those conclusions on my own, with very limited experience, but there's always a “but” with every generalization I make and I don't know much about audio reproduction and have limited knowledge of electromagnetism.
My idea of a good 2-way system is a full-range and a large woofer. If I had to use a tweeter in a 2-way system I would use an 8" woofer and the reason is simple: less distortion in the bass.
I wouldn’t need something like this: http://www.audioheuristics.org/projects_gallery/RS225_RS28A_updates/dayton_reference_rs225.htm to tell me that the right 8" mid/midbass sealed (or ported) will sound better to me – in a 2-way, with a tweeter – than a 7" inch sealed or ported with the same tweeter. I can guess that, based on what I want from a speaker, and my knowledge of physics. The test is nice quasi-confirmation of my generalization, but I kind of already knew that.
Unlike most people into DIY audio and Zaph, I will gladly sacrifice the upper octave of human hearing for the lower octave. It seems like I inherited this trait from my father. Whenever he gets near a stereo he turns the bass up, but I think he is worse than me. I just don’t like no deep bass and distorted bass and don’t really enjoy upper hearing range frequencies much. Building the most distortion free at 88db@1meter 2-way system with a 1” tweeter and smaller than 7” woofer, is useless to me. I could go to the dump and get some satellite speakers and a bandpass bass module and it would sound better to me. Actually I wouldn’t go that far, lol. But then again, if you want the most bang for your buck, a Blowse type satellite system would probably produce the type of sound the average people would enjoy, with modern music. That is probably one of the reasons why they sell so well, especially when you consider the size. Wow, what do you know? They might just do some sound (literally) research in those giant Blowse buildings after all. Or maybe people are just stupid, lol. Not me though, don't go there, lol. Ok, maybe a little 😀
The points I’m making here are: it advantageous to know what certain distortion tests mean to you, with respect to your application, especially listening SPL. They should accurately predict how much distortion your speaker will be making when you’ll be listening to it. And it would help to know how they were done. Also what is audible and more importantly, audibly annoying, is really important to me, since we’re using two (actually five, if you take into consideration how they look, smell and taste, lol) of our senses to enjoy the sound. The point is you don't get a lot of enjoyment from having a microphone flap around them send signal to electrical components which display a graph on a screen for your eyeballs to take in. Well, at least I don't. Nor do I get enjoyment from typing this really, lol. Although I really love the feel of my keyboard; the transients are exquisite, lol. 😀 They really are, great keyboard for gaming, in my opinion.
With that being typed, Zaph is a god to me!
lol Wait, should I have done that? Am I allowed to hug a god? lol 
http://www.klippel.de/download/Nonlin/klippel, Loudspeaker nonlinearities - causes and symptoms.pdf
I think Klippel stated it much better than me:
"The stimulus should contains at least two tones at the same time to measure
intermodulation distortion which are generated by the multiplication of two
different state signals (e.g. displacement and current). The frequency of the
tones and the sweeping techniques are critical to get results which are easy to
explain. The paper suggests two techniques (sweeping the bass or the voice
tone while keeping the other tone at a constant frequency)"
and the even more obvious:
"Nonlinear distortion measurements should be performed at different amplitude
levels."
This is also interesting, I suppose
http://140.174.80.168/distortion_perception.htm
A lot of this is basic logic. I would agree with almost every statement Zaph writes, that I can understand 😉 and have come to those conclusions on my own, with very limited experience, but there's always a “but” with every generalization I make and I don't know much about audio reproduction and have limited knowledge of electromagnetism.
My idea of a good 2-way system is a full-range and a large woofer. If I had to use a tweeter in a 2-way system I would use an 8" woofer and the reason is simple: less distortion in the bass.
I wouldn’t need something like this: http://www.audioheuristics.org/projects_gallery/RS225_RS28A_updates/dayton_reference_rs225.htm to tell me that the right 8" mid/midbass sealed (or ported) will sound better to me – in a 2-way, with a tweeter – than a 7" inch sealed or ported with the same tweeter. I can guess that, based on what I want from a speaker, and my knowledge of physics. The test is nice quasi-confirmation of my generalization, but I kind of already knew that.
Unlike most people into DIY audio and Zaph, I will gladly sacrifice the upper octave of human hearing for the lower octave. It seems like I inherited this trait from my father. Whenever he gets near a stereo he turns the bass up, but I think he is worse than me. I just don’t like no deep bass and distorted bass and don’t really enjoy upper hearing range frequencies much. Building the most distortion free at 88db@1meter 2-way system with a 1” tweeter and smaller than 7” woofer, is useless to me. I could go to the dump and get some satellite speakers and a bandpass bass module and it would sound better to me. Actually I wouldn’t go that far, lol. But then again, if you want the most bang for your buck, a Blowse type satellite system would probably produce the type of sound the average people would enjoy, with modern music. That is probably one of the reasons why they sell so well, especially when you consider the size. Wow, what do you know? They might just do some sound (literally) research in those giant Blowse buildings after all. Or maybe people are just stupid, lol. Not me though, don't go there, lol. Ok, maybe a little 😀
The points I’m making here are: it advantageous to know what certain distortion tests mean to you, with respect to your application, especially listening SPL. They should accurately predict how much distortion your speaker will be making when you’ll be listening to it. And it would help to know how they were done. Also what is audible and more importantly, audibly annoying, is really important to me, since we’re using two (actually five, if you take into consideration how they look, smell and taste, lol) of our senses to enjoy the sound. The point is you don't get a lot of enjoyment from having a microphone flap around them send signal to electrical components which display a graph on a screen for your eyeballs to take in. Well, at least I don't. Nor do I get enjoyment from typing this really, lol. Although I really love the feel of my keyboard; the transients are exquisite, lol. 😀 They really are, great keyboard for gaming, in my opinion.
With that being typed, Zaph is a god to me!
lol Wait, should I have done that? Am I allowed to hug a god? lol 
Sorry, I prefered the diamond b&w tweeter to the seas excel tweeter just for it's extention in very high sounds. I heard the excel tweeter in other speakers. I never did any microphone tests as I was listening in audio shops.
It's not, especially for the low registers because the woofer overlaps. I am just referring at the ambiance and room reflection I was hearing.
I have a question about the Seas 25TFFN. Is this one in your test the old model or the latest /QG model?
Where do you buy it (you can send me a pm).
Thanks,
45.
Last edited:
This was all five or more years ago. The thread was only recently reactivated by a gentleman talking about B&W diamond dome tweeters.
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